NASA Legal Roll Cage Question
10-02-2011, 12:01 PM
#1
NASA Legal Roll Cage Question
Hey guys,
I have one more race at Road America next weekend to finish the season. I will have enough points to win the TTB championship after this race. All I need to do is place and I'll be good. Anywho...
I am going to get a cage in the car this winter. Probably taking it in around mid November. I am wanting to remove all the metal behind the seats that held the glove boxes and sub enclosure. I also want to remove the rear strut bar and put in just a steel bar like I have seen on some of the cage builds here.
I am wanting to know if this is legal per NASA rules. I do know you are allowed to have a rear strut bar as long as it does not attach to more than two points. I have read through the rules and couldn't find anything saying that I can't do this, but I just want to make sure.
I thought I read somewhere that SCCA prohibits this type of interior removal since it is part of the steel structure.
Here is a pic of what I mean. I took this from djtimodj's thread. His cage thread is awesome and has given me a lot of motivation to go ahead and remove all the sound deadening stuff too.
I have one more race at Road America next weekend to finish the season. I will have enough points to win the TTB championship after this race. All I need to do is place and I'll be good. Anywho...
I am going to get a cage in the car this winter. Probably taking it in around mid November. I am wanting to remove all the metal behind the seats that held the glove boxes and sub enclosure. I also want to remove the rear strut bar and put in just a steel bar like I have seen on some of the cage builds here.
I am wanting to know if this is legal per NASA rules. I do know you are allowed to have a rear strut bar as long as it does not attach to more than two points. I have read through the rules and couldn't find anything saying that I can't do this, but I just want to make sure.
I thought I read somewhere that SCCA prohibits this type of interior removal since it is part of the steel structure.
Here is a pic of what I mean. I took this from djtimodj's thread. His cage thread is awesome and has given me a lot of motivation to go ahead and remove all the sound deadening stuff too.
Last edited by Fixxxercask; 10-02-2011 at 12:06 PM.
10-02-2011, 02:53 PM
#2
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I'll start by saying I really have no right to comment in here, but don't you have to have a divider between the driving compartment and the fuel system or is the OEM setup in the Z consider adequate enough.
otherwise, I would have to say based on your racing experience you might be the best resource for your own question...maybe check with some of the officials at your next race and see what they suggest.
otherwise, I would have to say based on your racing experience you might be the best resource for your own question...maybe check with some of the officials at your next race and see what they suggest.
10-03-2011, 03:08 AM
#3
I think what your saying only pertains to if you put a fuel cell in your car. The fuel tanks in the Z are still "divided" if I remove the parts I stated.
I put the post on here because I know there are a handful of guys on this forum that race in NASA that have cages. I wanted to see how they did theirs because I think some of them did it this way. I just want to make sure before I start ripping stuff out and dropping money on the cage.
I put the post on here because I know there are a handful of guys on this forum that race in NASA that have cages. I wanted to see how they did theirs because I think some of them did it this way. I just want to make sure before I start ripping stuff out and dropping money on the cage.
10-03-2011, 04:28 AM
#5
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Why would you....
leave the structure in-tact and build the cage like most other cages are built around the speaker surround and strut bar.
The rules may or may not comment on it, but what ive seen is that old ignorant azz hats run the dammn events and they take their own interpertation of the rules and apply them when they look at your car.
I wouldnt even care to deal with them and anything of any issue actually... it makes for a crappy race day. the mechanical/functional advantages versus leaving the structure in/out is so minor too....
My 2 cents...
-J
leave the structure in-tact and build the cage like most other cages are built around the speaker surround and strut bar.
The rules may or may not comment on it, but what ive seen is that old ignorant azz hats run the dammn events and they take their own interpertation of the rules and apply them when they look at your car.
I wouldnt even care to deal with them and anything of any issue actually... it makes for a crappy race day. the mechanical/functional advantages versus leaving the structure in/out is so minor too....
My 2 cents...
-J
10-03-2011, 04:56 AM
#6
I do not know for sure...but I am not aware of anything in the PT/TT rules that sez you cannot remove material from inside the car...for any reason. I would think only weight reduction points come into play here.
Note: I just re-read the rules, and don't see anything that states that this would cost points. However, IF IT IS NOT LISTED YOU MUST ASSUME IT IS ILLEGAL! CONTACT YOUR PT/TT DIRECTOR AND GET A LETTER STATING IT IS OK!
Then let me know so I can remove all that crap this winter
Note: I just re-read the rules, and don't see anything that states that this would cost points. However, IF IT IS NOT LISTED YOU MUST ASSUME IT IS ILLEGAL! CONTACT YOUR PT/TT DIRECTOR AND GET A LETTER STATING IT IS OK!
Then let me know so I can remove all that crap this winter
Last edited by laze1; 10-03-2011 at 04:10 PM.
10-03-2011, 07:41 AM
#7
The answer is: "It depends."
In most cases that materiel removal is not legal in the production sedan based class. Some exceptions are classes where tube frames are allowed.
Regarding the welded in STB, just weld it across the rear braces 1mm above the spring towers. As long as it isn't touching the OEM sheet metal its part of the cage and thus allowed. You can add as many bars within the cage structure and chassis mounting limits as you want.
In most cases that materiel removal is not legal in the production sedan based class. Some exceptions are classes where tube frames are allowed.
Regarding the welded in STB, just weld it across the rear braces 1mm above the spring towers. As long as it isn't touching the OEM sheet metal its part of the cage and thus allowed. You can add as many bars within the cage structure and chassis mounting limits as you want.
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10-03-2011, 12:45 PM
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I see that you are from Columbus, Ohio so you are very close to the best cage builder east of the Mississippi river who is located in Canton, Ohio just south of Akron. Look at www.rollcageguy.com and see what he's done with a 350Z cage. He built one cage for a Camaro for us and two 350Z cages. He is not only an excellent welder but he is also a good cage designer who also races. He is the only guy who we would use to build a cage. Our first 350Z we had him put in a Petty bar and the last one we left it out and also changed the rear design some. He is so good that he bends the upper bars to the inside contour of the roof. We find him cheap enough that its worth the 6 hours it takes us to tow the car out to him, not to mention the quality of his work. His name is Mark McMahon and you can call him at 330.645.6368 ..... tell him the Hines guys told you about him.
You can't go wrong to build your cage to SCCA rules. The rules are free to use and can be found at www.scca.com. They have been inssurance and lawsuit tested. Every sanctioning body accepts SCCA cages and if you ever decide to race with them you already have the cage problem solved. Good luck with your racing.
You can't go wrong to build your cage to SCCA rules. The rules are free to use and can be found at www.scca.com. They have been inssurance and lawsuit tested. Every sanctioning body accepts SCCA cages and if you ever decide to race with them you already have the cage problem solved. Good luck with your racing.
10-03-2011, 12:54 PM
#9
I would have to argue the best cage builder east of the Mississippi. One of the best, sure.
But you alsa have Chris Schimmel at Competition Cages. he has done quite a few of the SCCA class cars including GT1, GT2, and a whole host of IT cars. He is a Fellow IT racer himself.
http://www.competitioncages.com/
he also does roof contours, driver fittings, and the other quality touches.
As with the post above, you can tell him Marty sent you if you want to talk to him.
But you alsa have Chris Schimmel at Competition Cages. he has done quite a few of the SCCA class cars including GT1, GT2, and a whole host of IT cars. He is a Fellow IT racer himself.
http://www.competitioncages.com/
he also does roof contours, driver fittings, and the other quality touches.
As with the post above, you can tell him Marty sent you if you want to talk to him.
Last edited by mhoward1; 10-03-2011 at 12:56 PM.
10-03-2011, 04:46 PM
#10
I see that you are from Columbus, Ohio so you are very close to the best cage builder east of the Mississippi river who is located in Canton, Ohio just south of Akron. Look at www.rollcageguy.com and see what he's done with a 350Z cage. He built one cage for a Camaro for us and two 350Z cages. He is not only an excellent welder but he is also a good cage designer who also races. He is the only guy who we would use to build a cage. Our first 350Z we had him put in a Petty bar and the last one we left it out and also changed the rear design some. He is so good that he bends the upper bars to the inside contour of the roof. We find him cheap enough that its worth the 6 hours it takes us to tow the car out to him, not to mention the quality of his work. His name is Mark McMahon and you can call him at 330.645.6368 ..... tell him the Hines guys told you about him.
You can't go wrong to build your cage to SCCA rules. The rules are free to use and can be found at www.scca.com. They have been inssurance and lawsuit tested. Every sanctioning body accepts SCCA cages and if you ever decide to race with them you already have the cage problem solved. Good luck with your racing.
You can't go wrong to build your cage to SCCA rules. The rules are free to use and can be found at www.scca.com. They have been inssurance and lawsuit tested. Every sanctioning body accepts SCCA cages and if you ever decide to race with them you already have the cage problem solved. Good luck with your racing.
10-03-2011, 04:52 PM
#11
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions guys.
JasonZ-YA,
That was something else that I was concerned about. How much rigidity does all that metal really add and will it be noticeable if removed? I want to remove it to save weight since I am adding the cage. I am going to be re-doing my car over winter and getting my comp weight down to 2988 is a part of it and every bit of weight counts.
Laze,
I take it your cage is built around all that?
JasonZ-YA,
That was something else that I was concerned about. How much rigidity does all that metal really add and will it be noticeable if removed? I want to remove it to save weight since I am adding the cage. I am going to be re-doing my car over winter and getting my comp weight down to 2988 is a part of it and every bit of weight counts.
Laze,
I take it your cage is built around all that?
10-04-2011, 07:22 AM
#13
Per what I saw on Nissan's 270Z introduction vehicles during the press event at Streets of Willow, they mounted the diff cooler under the car behind the transmission and tucked up into the driveshaft tunnel. They built a small sheet metal scoop that pointed down and had exit ducting that routed the air back towards the diff. The cooler was at a 30 degree angle from horizontal. The in-line pump was mounted on the passenger side of the tunnel behind the cooler.
Your Accusump should be as close to the engine as possible. Quicker reaction time and shorter lines.
Your Accusump should be as close to the engine as possible. Quicker reaction time and shorter lines.
Last edited by betamotorsports; 10-04-2011 at 07:23 AM.
10-04-2011, 10:13 AM
#14
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On the two cars where I had an accusump I mounted it in the passenger area as I had one with a handle so I could preload my rotary engine.
When you go to Road America check your times. Our 3400# T3 350Z ran a best qualifying time of 2:35.444.
When you go to Road America check your times. Our 3400# T3 350Z ran a best qualifying time of 2:35.444.
10-05-2011, 05:44 AM
#15
I think a lot of lap records are going to be broken this weekend. I think the TTB record is like a 2:39 or something. NASA has not been there in a couple years and so far this year everyone is much faster than previous years. For example: in 2008 a 1:37.9 won TTB at Mid Ohio at Nationals. This year that was the slowest time in TTB. 1:35.8 won Nationals. Having said that, I think the Road America record is going to get crushed. Hopefully by me. 
The weather is calling for Sunny and 70's all weekend. This will be the first event all season that hasn't had a chance of rain. It has rained at every event except one and that was the July Mid Ohio and it was 105+ with the heat index. That's hot for us northerners.
The weather is calling for Sunny and 70's all weekend. This will be the first event all season that hasn't had a chance of rain. It has rained at every event except one and that was the July Mid Ohio and it was 105+ with the heat index. That's hot for us northerners.
10-05-2011, 11:22 AM
#17
AND BACK TO THE ORIGINAL REQUEST 
from the NASA rule book
WEIGHT REDUCTION:
Weight reduction points are based on the actual vehicle minimum competition weight (with driver). Removal and lightening of non-essential parts is permitted unless stated otherwise in these rules. Modification of the OEM frame, sub-frame, and floor pan are not permitted (see
5.2.2) Removal or lightening of engine parts is permitted only as listed elsewhere in these rules:
5.2.2 Base Classification Table and Listed Base Weights
Any tube-frame, never street legal, monocoque purpose-built racecar, vehicle not approved by the DOT, TUV or Japanese government for street use, or production vehicle that does not retain the original front clip, floorpan, and sub-frame, or is converted (partially or wholly) to a tubeframe
design, that is not otherwise classed below or in Appendix C, will default to the Super Unlimited class until evaluated by the National PT Director for possible homologation into another class. Individual cars may be approved for classing or re-classing by the National PT Director using the vehicle’s actual dynamometer measured maximum chassis horsepower and torque, and the minimum competition weight of the vehicle (with driver).
No points mods:
42) Shock tower reinforcement plate (to strengthen tower shock mount location only--no bars)
43) Shock mount replacement/modification (only if already taking points for both shocks and springs)(may raise or lower mount
location up to two (2) inches if no horizontal movement.)
46) Add front strut tower bar (two attachment points—bolted in or as component of the cage)
47) Add rear strut tower bar (two attachment points—bolted in or as a component of the cage)
from the NASA rule book
WEIGHT REDUCTION:
Weight reduction points are based on the actual vehicle minimum competition weight (with driver). Removal and lightening of non-essential parts is permitted unless stated otherwise in these rules. Modification of the OEM frame, sub-frame, and floor pan are not permitted (see
5.2.2) Removal or lightening of engine parts is permitted only as listed elsewhere in these rules:
5.2.2 Base Classification Table and Listed Base Weights
Any tube-frame, never street legal, monocoque purpose-built racecar, vehicle not approved by the DOT, TUV or Japanese government for street use, or production vehicle that does not retain the original front clip, floorpan, and sub-frame, or is converted (partially or wholly) to a tubeframe
design, that is not otherwise classed below or in Appendix C, will default to the Super Unlimited class until evaluated by the National PT Director for possible homologation into another class. Individual cars may be approved for classing or re-classing by the National PT Director using the vehicle’s actual dynamometer measured maximum chassis horsepower and torque, and the minimum competition weight of the vehicle (with driver).
No points mods:
42) Shock tower reinforcement plate (to strengthen tower shock mount location only--no bars)
43) Shock mount replacement/modification (only if already taking points for both shocks and springs)(may raise or lower mount
location up to two (2) inches if no horizontal movement.)
46) Add front strut tower bar (two attachment points—bolted in or as component of the cage)
47) Add rear strut tower bar (two attachment points—bolted in or as a component of the cage)
Last edited by laze1; 10-05-2011 at 11:26 AM.
10-06-2011, 04:52 AM
#19
I do not compete where these particular rules....rule. However I can tell you about three different Z's that are being caged right now..the metal behind the seats, I.E. Speaker enclosures and glove boxes has been cut out and the cage or hoop I should say is going to be mounted in that space. This allows the cage to be mounted inches to the rear, saving the space immediately behind the seats. This is REALLY appealing to me as I am 6'2" tall and want the seat all the way back. I would like the passenger seat all the way back as well. The cage looks amazing and the hoop going forward and down the front pillars isn't even visible from outside the car, which means more space to get in and out of the car. These are being done by Russell @ UpRev..I live close, am at their shop all the time and russell does some seriously fantastic fabricating....give them a call..
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions guys.
JasonZ-YA,
That was something else that I was concerned about. How much rigidity does all that metal really add and will it be noticeable if removed? I want to remove it to save weight since I am adding the cage. I am going to be re-doing my car over winter and getting my comp weight down to 2988 is a part of it and every bit of weight counts.
Laze,
I take it your cage is built around all that?
JasonZ-YA,
That was something else that I was concerned about. How much rigidity does all that metal really add and will it be noticeable if removed? I want to remove it to save weight since I am adding the cage. I am going to be re-doing my car over winter and getting my comp weight down to 2988 is a part of it and every bit of weight counts.
Laze,
I take it your cage is built around all that?
10-07-2011, 06:41 PM
#20
My second session out I ran a 2:36.6. I took passengers and played with some settings on the car the rest of the day. Looking at my data I should have a 2:34 in the car. Maybe more. We'll see.
Oh yea, this track is fast!!!