Stock or Brembo (Rear)??? with ST40 Front
Stock or Brembo (Rear)??? with ST40 Front
Hi Zers. My stock non brembo brakes were so weak when I autox in the past year. So I bought an used Stoptech ST-40 in Jan, not yet install, still waiting for the rebuild kits. From what I researched, the BBK actually will not give you a significant improvement on the braking distance, it will only reduce a bit if the master cylinder and brake booster aren’t upgraded. It is more efficient on the heat dissipation. Not sure if that is correct, so need your help on my questions below:
- I was wondering what would be the differences if I run stock non-brembo vs stock brembo on the rear? (same pads, probably will be DTC-60/HPS. ST-40 front with DTC-60. No upgrade on the master cylinder and booster)
- Compared with my friend’s 370Z with stock Akebono, it’s like 2 times better than mine (stock brake). Assuming master cylinder and booster are good, will brake fluid and BBK be seriously impact the braking performance? (I haven’t flush the brake fluid since I bought the Z one year ago, and I don’t think previous owner did)
Thanks in advance!
- I was wondering what would be the differences if I run stock non-brembo vs stock brembo on the rear? (same pads, probably will be DTC-60/HPS. ST-40 front with DTC-60. No upgrade on the master cylinder and booster)
- Compared with my friend’s 370Z with stock Akebono, it’s like 2 times better than mine (stock brake). Assuming master cylinder and booster are good, will brake fluid and BBK be seriously impact the braking performance? (I haven’t flush the brake fluid since I bought the Z one year ago, and I don’t think previous owner did)
Thanks in advance!
The main issue that I had and one other top national guy had with the non brembos all around was the abs intrusion. Regardless of pad you couldn't keep it from firing. I use St40 on front and Brembo rears with 2 piece rotors. Only had one test day on that set-up so far, but I really like it. The st40's alone on front were also pretty damn good. I just wanted to switch it up. I trophied in BSP at nationals last year with non brembos on back. They won't hold you back for a while.
NT555's are pure garbage. Worst tire I have used on any vehicle. That said, I only upgraded the lines, calipers, rotors, pads, and fluid. The master cylinder, etc is the same.
Interesting that I've seen reference to this on some posts. Changing a mc bore size won't change stopping distances nor will it change total achievable rotor torque. The only thing you'll get with a change in bore size is displacement and output pressure.
With a larger bore you'll push harder to achieve a given pressure.
With a smaller bore you won't push as hard to get to that pressure.
Rotor torque (and ultimately tire torque at lock up) remains a static value regardless. How you get to that value is all that changes- in short how hard you push the pedal to achieve it. You can push with 70lbs and get 800psi and tire lock or push at 55lbs and get 800psi and lock up.
Last edited by Todd TCE; Mar 12, 2013 at 01:18 PM.
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Interesting that I've seen reference to this on some posts. Changing a mc bore size won't change stopping distances nor will it change total achievable rotor torque. The only thing you'll get with a change in bore size is displacement and output pressure.
With a larger bore you'll push harder to achieve a given pressure.
With a smaller bore you won't push as hard to get to that pressure.
Rotor torque (and ultimately tire torque at lock up) remains a static value regardless. How you get to that value is all that changes- in short how hard you push the pedal to achieve it. You can push with 70lbs and get 800psi and tire lock or push at 55lbs and get 800psi and lock up.
With a larger bore you'll push harder to achieve a given pressure.
With a smaller bore you won't push as hard to get to that pressure.
Rotor torque (and ultimately tire torque at lock up) remains a static value regardless. How you get to that value is all that changes- in short how hard you push the pedal to achieve it. You can push with 70lbs and get 800psi and tire lock or push at 55lbs and get 800psi and lock up.
Neither Brian Peters(who now has a 350z and could wear a different national championship jacket each day of the week) or myself could get them to work without ABS interference. I rebuilt the calipers, a bunch of different pads and rotors, etc. Just couldn't get them to work, and now Brian is having the same problems.
Bear in mind that both of us were using 03-05 brakes...
Bear in mind that both of us were using 03-05 brakes...
Interesting that I've seen reference to this on some posts. Changing a mc bore size won't change stopping distances nor will it change total achievable rotor torque. The only thing you'll get with a change in bore size is displacement and output pressure.
With a larger bore you'll push harder to achieve a given pressure.
With a smaller bore you won't push as hard to get to that pressure.
Rotor torque (and ultimately tire torque at lock up) remains a static value regardless. How you get to that value is all that changes- in short how hard you push the pedal to achieve it. You can push with 70lbs and get 800psi and tire lock or push at 55lbs and get 800psi and lock up.
With a larger bore you'll push harder to achieve a given pressure.
With a smaller bore you won't push as hard to get to that pressure.
Rotor torque (and ultimately tire torque at lock up) remains a static value regardless. How you get to that value is all that changes- in short how hard you push the pedal to achieve it. You can push with 70lbs and get 800psi and tire lock or push at 55lbs and get 800psi and lock up.
)! Need time to digest~
Last edited by swat518; Mar 12, 2013 at 05:40 PM.
MC bore sizes will affect braking balance if you're running different bore sizing front and rear. The '06 and later base brakes with DTC70 pads and air ducted to the fronts worked fine for me on every track I ran. No need for the ducting at an autox.
DTC60/70 are not a good pad for autox use. They will not get hot enough to start working as well as they can.
DTC60/70 are not a good pad for autox use. They will not get hot enough to start working as well as they can.
All ST-40 fronts for 03-05 non-brembo and 03-08 brembo were the same. 06+ non-brembos were different.
I've asked stoptech this very question. According to stoptech, the brembos and early model non-brembos have significantly lower brake torque output than the later model non-brembos. The stoptech kits were designed to maintain the stock front to rear bias. So the answer to your question depends on which ST-40 kit you have and which OEM rears you have.
I have an 06 with the correctly matched front ST-40 kit. I ended up staying with the non-brembo rears to avoid making the brakes overly front biased.
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Can you break down the issue?
If its stopping distance the I would look at tires, weight balance, and pressure balance.
If its fade then I would look at fluids and pads before caliper upgrades.
If its initial bite feel and moderation. feel then pad brands and compounds.
If its pedal pressure feel the maybe bias and the maybe MC changes.
Luckily we have some brake experts like above that can take specific issues and then come out with a plan of action.
If its stopping distance the I would look at tires, weight balance, and pressure balance.
If its fade then I would look at fluids and pads before caliper upgrades.
If its initial bite feel and moderation. feel then pad brands and compounds.
If its pedal pressure feel the maybe bias and the maybe MC changes.
Luckily we have some brake experts like above that can take specific issues and then come out with a plan of action.
+1
All ST-40 fronts for 03-05 non-brembo and 03-08 brembo were the same. 06+ non-brembos were different.
I've asked stoptech this very question. According to stoptech, the brembos and early model non-brembos have significantly lower brake torque output than the later model non-brembos. The stoptech kits were designed to maintain the stock front to rear bias. So the answer to your question depends on which ST-40 kit you have and which OEM rears you have.
I have an 06 with the correctly matched front ST-40 kit. I ended up staying with the non-brembo rears to avoid making the brakes overly front biased.
All ST-40 fronts for 03-05 non-brembo and 03-08 brembo were the same. 06+ non-brembos were different.
I've asked stoptech this very question. According to stoptech, the brembos and early model non-brembos have significantly lower brake torque output than the later model non-brembos. The stoptech kits were designed to maintain the stock front to rear bias. So the answer to your question depends on which ST-40 kit you have and which OEM rears you have.
I have an 06 with the correctly matched front ST-40 kit. I ended up staying with the non-brembo rears to avoid making the brakes overly front biased.
MC bore sizes will affect braking balance if you're running different bore sizing front and rear. The '06 and later base brakes with DTC70 pads and air ducted to the fronts worked fine for me on every track I ran. No need for the ducting at an autox.
DTC60/70 are not a good pad for autox use. They will not get hot enough to start working as well as they can.
DTC60/70 are not a good pad for autox use. They will not get hot enough to start working as well as they can.
I bought HPS for the rear OEM caliper and DTC-60 for ST-40 (but DTC-60 is on backorder…). I will basically run autox this year, but will have HPDE1 on May. Obviously, I won’t drive crazy in my 1st HPDE, so do you suggest to use HPS front as well?
Last edited by swat518; Mar 14, 2013 at 05:10 AM.
Can you break down the issue?
If its stopping distance the I would look at tires, weight balance, and pressure balance.
If its fade then I would look at fluids and pads before caliper upgrades.
If its initial bite feel and moderation. feel then pad brands and compounds.
If its pedal pressure feel the maybe bias and the maybe MC changes.
Luckily we have some brake experts like above that can take specific issues and then come out with a plan of action.
If its stopping distance the I would look at tires, weight balance, and pressure balance.
If its fade then I would look at fluids and pads before caliper upgrades.
If its initial bite feel and moderation. feel then pad brands and compounds.
If its pedal pressure feel the maybe bias and the maybe MC changes.
Luckily we have some brake experts like above that can take specific issues and then come out with a plan of action.
What I experienced was:
When I floored the brake before the corner, I felt the car is heavy, and not enough clamping force on the rotors. The wheels were never lock up. what I thought of the issues are from fluids and pads. (I will flush fluid to ATE in few wks, and pads probably to HPS, definitely will bedin). I cannot tell what would be the feeling caused by the improper bias. In addition, one wired thing I was trying to figure out was after hard braking, I heard electrical buzz coming from the engine bay last probably 2 sec, but ABS didn’t interfere???
What I was told by instructors who drove my car:
Two comments that I remember: The front didn’t dive too much to transfer the weight(I don’t know that’s because of the brake or anti-dive design). AND the brake is way too much weak than his 370Z…
btw, i would not use the HPS as a track pad. they fall off really quickly once they start to fade.
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