What is the best way to slow down at a turn?

for instance starting at 4th gear

i always see people rev match thru every gear, down shifting all the way to 2nd. is it necessary?
can u just break harder and just rev match from 4th to 2nd or is it.

would u go 4,3,2

or 4 to 2 and break harder?

 

i do 4th -> 2nd; however, i don't think this is the best way to do it ... i find that i take alot of time trying to figure out where to try and catch the revs at, and have overshot the braking zones bc im concentrating too much matching the revs rather than braking. next time out, i will try downshifting through each gear.

 

i do the 4th to 2nd also.

i brake hard, and then do a quick heel/toe from 4th to 2nd at the end of my approach....problem with this technique is the revs have dropped more than i'd like so i have to blip the throttle more to rev match, which takes time

oh well, still learning/practicing

 

I usually brake extremely hard and just stick it in the gear that I want to use coming out of the corner. If I'm braking really hard I'd don't try to heel-toe and I just slowly let out the clutch. It sometimes chirps the rear tires but ABS always saves me. That's the fastest way for me to get my braking done. Skipping the heel-toe and the extra downshifts lets me concentrate on my line for corner entry. Of course, all of this is really just an excuse for a lack of talent.

 

Try to avoid skipping gears when downshifting. Usually you end up messing up the blip and the rpms are too low or high, not to mention it's easier to blip up 2000rpms (for example) twice, then trying to blip up 3000-4000rpms and get it right - the rev time is longer and it's harder to nail the correct RPM as a result. Going through the gears helps ensure you get the rpm matching correct and it also gives you a second to figure out if you actually need to go down a gear. Going into a corner hot, downshifting and not blipping the throttle is a bad idea... FWIW, that's a technique drifters use to initiate slides.

 

Personally, I always go through every gear. Like phoenixZ33 mentioned, it makes it easier to blip the proper amount, and I think it's easier to keep in the proper rhythm, too.

This way you're always able to downshift the right number of gears for the situation, and once you get the rhythm and timing down, you'll be amazed at how quickly you can execute a smooth, multi-gear downshift that still visits each gear on the way down.

For example, it will never become automatic muscle memory if each downshift from 4 isn't ALWAYS to 3. If you're sometimes going 4->3, and sometimes 4->2, you'll have to stop and ask yourself each time how much you're planning on revving the engine for that downshift. But if you know that coming down from 4 you'll always hit 3, heel-toeing the pedals just becomes as natural a part of making the shift as moving the stick is.

It's more work at first, but it's worth the effort. Good luck!

 

^ Agreed.

 

From what I've read from the Skip Barber book, I think it's not good to slow down at a turn. Rather, my understanding is that braking should be done before the turn. And, acceleration takes place about midway or a little earlier into the turn. If you're in fourth and it's a 60 mph or less turn, 2nd would work. If it's a faster curve, it has to be in 3rd.

So from a lay person, and in answer to your question, yes, brake harder. Rev matching, heel toe kind of stuff is way more advanced than I can handle so I would do all my braking before entering the turn so that I could accelerate out of it after hitting the apex.

If anyone more experienced disagrees, please feel free to say so because I'm by no means an authority.

 

we are all talking about braking before the turn.

i think gary's statement sums it up perfectly.

 

this is a dumb question but what do you mean by heel /toe?



i see a flame comin

 

Heel to toe is where you use your right foot to operate both the brake (not really your toe but the top of your foot) and throttle (heel - but it's really more the outside mid/lower portion of your foot).

Personally, I drop 2 gears by giving here a heavier blip. I've been heel/toeing naturally on the street shortly after doing several race courses 17 years ago (man that makes me feel old!). While it's initially easier to use every gear downshifting, it is definitely more work and releasing the clutch twice instead of once effectively doubles the odds of not rev matching properly (even though it's an easier rev match). Like learning to heel/toe a single gear downshift, skipping a gear takes some practice but feels natural after awhile. Don't forget the idea was to be applied on true racing engines (which blip very easily) so the concept may not be as applicable to the lethargic VQ35 - although is still works fine for me.

I also learned and applied the knowledge from these courses that you can trail brake into a turn (Nigel Mansell was a master at it). Similar to the concept of maximizing the rear tire on corner exit (from cornering to accelerating), you can do the same to the front tire by smoothly/quickly transferring from braking to turning trying to keep it's workload as close to 100% as possible. Typically, total cornering load does not take place instantly (unless you're Alonso or karting) hence there's a given distance at every corner entry when the front tires are not cornering 100%. While the majority of braking is done prior to turn-in, it is possible to carry a small portion of that task into corner and releasing that work as the cornering loads build. This results in slightly shorter braking distances and improved lap times. Thankfully, the 350z is quite stable under braking so it responds well to this technique.

 

You should not be getting hung up on the heel toe part of the equation. It is just a technique to match engine revs NOT to slow the car. You should be using the brakes to slow the car not engine braking.
It's most important when the brakes are applied, released and smooth transition to throttle application. You should be able to go straight from 4 to 2 without any hitches. My point is that heel-toe should be second nature. Some times with my students, I have them take some corners without shifting gears to remove one piece of the puzzle so they can concentrate on braking, turn-in etc and you woudn't believe how much better things fall into place when remove just one element.

 

I do the same thing. Most tracks can be run entirely in 3rd / 4th gear, so when you eliminate shift points, you can have them focus on learning the line to segment their education.

As for heel-toeing, I suggest learning on the street. Any student of mine that does not know how to heel-toe, I teach them in the paddock how to do it, and then have them practice it on the street as a "homework assignment" before their next track event. To me it's an essential skill to have as it reduces stress off the drivetrain, and will eliminate lose of rear traction under braking as you pick up speed.

 

I'm of the opinion that you simply take the turn in 3rd as opposed to 2nd. 350Zs have enough torque to handle it. In an HPDE situation, there's no need to try to get every last milisecond... and chances are, the trouble of gearing down two gears takes more than it gives you coming out of the turn. Not to mention the wear and tear on your tranny (I'll only briefly bring up the stories of failing trannies in 350Zs).

Concentrate instead on the proper line around the turn. What's the exit like? Is there enough pavement that you can take the turn a little earlier? Is there more pavement to be used at turn in to create a wider arc? What track and what turn are you refering to?

If you've done even minor suspension upgrades (sways) there aren't many corners that 3rd gear won't handle in a 350Z.

Everyone should know by now that smoothness and momentum are key to good lap times... staying in 3rd or only gearing down once and keeping your momentum will benefit you better overall.

-Stacy King
Triangle Z Club

 

I just hit the brakes and let the auto do the work

 

I completely disagree with the people who recomend going through all the gears. There's simply no benefit or reason to do it, just more chances to screw up your concentration, your line, or your car. And it will take you a lot more time than just hitting the brakes hard and going straight to the gear you need.

The thing is, as others have said, you must have your heel/toe technique down pat. Practice on the street.

 

Skipping gears is the way too go. Too many chances to put the transmission in the wrong gear and you spend too much time rowing through the gears. It does take practice to get it smooth but skipping gears is quicker. Even Michael Schumacher skipped gears (when F1 cars still had full manual transmissions). Most tracks that I have raced on only have one or two spots at most where you shift down more than one gear (usually at the end of a long straightaway. Most tracks you are shifting between 3rd and 4th the whole time...

 

I brake hard, engine brake, blip, don't blip, screw up and rev too high...it all depends on the turn and what track you're at. To each his/her own...

"They" say you should be breaking before the turn to accellerate out...not dragging your brakes in or through the turn. Sounds good, but never really works when on track. Me, personally, I like to engine brake and brake so I'm in the right gear in the turn so I can get out quickly. Is that right? Probably not according to someone out there. But, it works for me and my setup. So, I keep doing what I do and getting good lap times. So, I'm happy...

 

you guys all have interesting methods

these are all rwd high low end hp vehicles with nice brakes
mines wimpy high rev low disp ff with "brakes"...

this is how i take my turns
i brake before and since i have no lsd after the apex i have no problem accelerating and usually im already using my race cam (above 6k) and i find it much easier that way to use downshifting b/c my brakes are hella weak. my 2 cents.

 

It also greatly depends on experience level, comfort level, and the size of your cahones!

The theory behind braking before the turn and accelerating through basically is to get the car 'settled' as you make your turn-in. This helps prevent loss of traction due to abrupt weight shifts. (Which BTW can also happen with aprupt gear changes.) One advanced technique is trail braking. Essentially keeping some braking force dialed in while making the initial turn-in, usually to help rotate the car in tight sections. This places more weight on the front wheels (increasing traction) while reducing weight on the rear wheels (reducing traction) which helps the rear end 'come around'.

Beginners and most novices don't have the finesse or seat time to know the limits of the car in these situations.

On a similar note, downshifting properly should done like a duck... smooth on the surface, paddling like hell underneath. In other words, on the outside, your car should appear smooth and steady in the braking zone, but your hands and feet will be doing a jig trying to do four things at once. It's like golf... when you do it right once, even if a fluke, you're hooked.

The original question, asking how to take a particular turn, skip a gear, don't skip a gear... these are all things an in-car instructor should be helping you out with. If not, you aren't getting your money's worth.

Stacy King
Track Events Coordinator
Triangle Z Club
North Carolina