Chebosto

iTrader: (43)

well. it would be a fun test, no?

GTNPU Z

iTrader: (17)

Enough with the "I'm better than you" BS. Just build your products & have them speak for themselves. If your products are as good as they say, it will show & people will know. Good thing none of the other brake companies aren't on this board since I'd imagine it looking like a Royal Rumble up in here .

(James - Thinks everyone should just be happy there is this sort of competition between manufacturers. This sort of drive will only benefit us, the consumers. Less the flaming of course...)

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

Okay BremboGuy, you've given me all of the marketing fluff and buzzwords...quality, best, proven, REAL racing history...now give me something tangible. At this point, you still haven't provided any evidence or technical data to actually support your claims, and you still haven't even disclosed if you are indeed an expert on automotive brakes. Any 6th grader can tell me what a wonderful company Brembo is, and how much they spend in Formula 1. What specifically are the design elements of 'your' 350Z brake kits (if they are really yours) vs. StopTech or any of the other 350Z kits on the market.

Okay...more marketing fluff...true, better, best, F1, Porsche...did you copy and paste that from your catalog? I'm still waiting for some actual technical benefits vs. anything else out there. You're just retreading the same ground. The benefits vs. stock you list could be considered true of any aftermarket BBK.

Also, even if you do work for Race Tech (which I'm sure you do), you aren't actually a manufacturer of brakes. You are a reseller/distributor of Brembo's product. What do you know about the actual processes involved in the production of Brembo parts that makes them 'the best?' Pretty please, with sugar on top, enlighten us as to the processes that make the brakes you resell superior.

Bubble

iTrader: (50)

kekekek..how about you send me your Stoptech to me and i'll test it on my car for you. lolz..hahaha

tekk

i would have liked to purchase brembo products for my car but for some reason they dont want to make their products really available.

they dont offer their carbon ceramic technology- and i dont want to hear bs about how its $15k per corner. its not. its not even that much all around. there's a huge market and they have an advantage that they proudly tout whenever they talk abour racing heritage, etc... yet they still refuse to do it. a guy i know owns majority stake of a car company and he cant use their carbon products. if he wanted to he'd have to use the porsche hub and buy through prosche. that makes no sense.

but on top of that, brembo will not even make a proper 4 wheel kit for the car. its like you can buy one of two front kits but then nothign for the rear, whether you have oem brembo or oem it doesnt matter. its like theyre saying the rear brakes dont matter at all, which isnt true.

then on top of that they dont offer 2pc replacement rotors. it just doesnt make sense to me. it seems like endless, stoptech, etc are better for the G/Z...yet people give Brembo recognition and Brembo runs with it.

sorry i had to vent

BremboGuy

I already said that I'm not here to battle.
I am willing to answer any questions directly related to what I know about Brembo and that is all I intend to do.


Any answers I give you will always result in the same questions from you.
"Who am I and where do I get my information???"

I am not here to battle.
I love StopTech brakes and think that there is a place in this industry for their wonderfull products.
(happy now???)

BremboGuy

There are quite a few Brembo dealers who advertise on this forum.
The products are completely accessible. And Brembo ships 98% of their orders within 24 hours.


Brembo's technology is Carbon/Carbon not Carbon/Ceramic.
And it is available to specific markets.
Ferrari uses it...MBZ will be shortly...Formula 1...ALMS...IRL...IROC Series...some drag racing and funny car stuff.

And in most of these cases it's more expensive than 15k.
For the IRL guys they spend about $2500 per disc alone. (15")
About $3000 per caliper.
Formual1 actually spends less per disc..about $1400 (11")
But, much more per caliper $6500 each (metal matrix) $4500 (aluminum)

I guarantee the market is not as huge as you think it is.
and
It's not that we refuse to do it...It's more that we will only place it where it is completely appropriate.

There is absolutely no friction at ambient temperatures. So for a street car it is absolutely dangerous.
The discs used in Formula1 require a minimum of 800-900degrees and flashes at 2200degrees.
There are combinations available that will operate as low as 400degrees but even that is unsafe for most applications.

tekk

I stand corrected.

..whatever you want to call your ceramic composite material. rotors alone, its not 15k. also what are the diffferences between the ccm caliper and the non-ccm caliper?

my point is- some manufacturers cant do it. yet how big is the enzo market...? unless you think your products are enzo worthy and not worthy for other manufacturers. and if this is the case, why are you here?

so the enzo, stradale, 430, 612, SLR, etc are not safe to drive on the street?

Nano

iTrader: (1)

I keep hearing this crap. You keep saying that other manufatucturers advertise better performance with more pistons... sure... and now you have a 6 piston calipers. Now SUDDENLY, you starteed claiming other manufacturers were advertsising shorter stopping distances.

WHO(what manufacturer???? where???) ADVERTISED BETTER PERFORMANCE AND SHORTER STOPPING DISTANCES WITH MORE PISTONS? I have never read that anywhere... actually most of these manufacturers advertised the EXACT same thing you have been advertising now with your 6 piston caliper. Longer pad life, larger surface, less tapper, etc... etc... only difference is that they don't claim to have invented HOT WATER.

this is a post from 2003 from one of these manufacturers/builders... and you make it sound as if STOPTECH is the ONLY manufacturer to have a clue about piston size, number, torque,etc... 2003!!!!

"bigger is not always better, more is not always better either. The number of pistons does not always equate to better braking. What does matter however is the diamater of these pistons. This is what determines the amount of pressure being applied and exerted from the caliper. The total surface area of the pistons is what we look at when we are determining what will work and what will not. These number s are not only important for making sure that front to rear bias is not thrown off but also in making sure that you can retain an OEM pedal height and feel without the need of proportioning valves or residual valves. A properly designed system should not need any. The increase in the actual number of pistons does one thing, promotes an even distribution of energy through the pad. This reduces pad taper and increases its longevity."

StopTech

Similar questions regarding our 6 piston release have already been presented and answered in this thread: https://my350z.com/forum/brakes-and-suspension/174294-stoptech-s-6piston-beauuuuttyyyy.html

Nano

iTrader: (1)

Actually if it has been answere, I am not seeing it. I still can't figure out who advertised better performance with more pistons...

So now suddenly, there is a technical reason for more pistons that was eluding EVERY other brake manufacturer? I still would like to know WHICH vendors where adding pistons for no technical rasons. And where they advertised shorter stopping distances.

Again, who? where? Who claims these "more stopping power"??? LOL!!! Actually STOPTECH advertises shorter stopping distances more than ANYONE else.

Bubble

iTrader: (50)

hahaha..because they are STOPTECH and because they said so and because they think member here not smart enough that will take whatever they said.

I talked to Loren at Rotora last Sat and and the nice thing about them is that they never talk shiet about other manf even after i purposely trick him into it. He just simply say "if you are not tracking your car, you don't even need the extra stoping power" He even said the 14" kit (6/4 pots) i bought is way too much for my car but since i'm in for the look, it's up to me. He never mention anything to advertise for his product or talk bad about other brand to convince me to get Rotora.

Nano

iTrader: (1)

Exacly... the only manufacturer constantly putting others down, and talking **** is Stoptech. NOT only that, but If you would believe everything they say, they managed to not only invent the carriage, they also invented the horse and the carrot as well... and claim to be the only ones to have any clue about "the technical purpose" of things. As if piston size and ballanced brakes was a foreign concept known only to them. If you read the 6 piston thread, all of this gets pretty patetic... Nothing against their products, but god does it get annoying and it does make you wonder

BremboGuy

tekk,
I missed this question earlier.

Simple answer...Brembo engineers are stubborn.
Stubborn in a good way. They only produce a product if it is done correctly, safely, and within their personal criteria.
Where the factory caliper bolts onto the suspension...there is no room to go vertical and fit a larger caliper. They personally don't like the idea of rotating or clocking the caliper to make it clear the suspension.

It was a judgment call. From a sales stand point it hurt a bit...from an engineering aspect they have a specific criteria they follow. Safety first.
It's why they soo respected as an OE manufacturer.

Our 2 front options are both great choices and were offered separately for fitments under factory wheels.
The 13.1" kit fits under 17"'s
and the 14" kit fits under 18"s.
The 13.1" kit also has the slightly better unsprung weight advantage.

We simply don't make a high performance/racing disc that has the proper overall diameter, thickness and annulus that matches that of the OE disc.

Engineering a brand new, specific disc, for 1 or 2 limited applications is just not an option for us. Some of the smaller companies, using cheaper castings and manufacturing process's can easily get away with this. We just chose to leave this option to them.

***not to mention that the thermal capacity of those 2pc. discs is drastically less that the OE disc. The only advantage is the minimal weight savings. I have yet to see a 2pc. replacement disc for the stock caliper that last's as long as the factory discs. So in theory, wouldn't that be a down grade??***

tekk

i'm sorry. i want to like brembo but i cant. you've got fine engineers and an excellent brand name, but your marketing and product strategies are horrific- at best.

1. brembo could build a proper setup for the Z but they chose not to because the market size and image arent what they would like. please dont call it out on safety when it obviously isnt. nor is it correct- after already spending $2-4k for a front kit, you still havent achieved a properly balanced system.

2. you again claim safety is important to brembo, and note that the CCM parts are not available because they require high temperatures to operate safely, yet the system is fitted to cars such as the enzo, slr, f430, etc.
again, the you could obviously make better technology available for street cars, but you choose not to.

3. which leads me to my question: why is brembo picking and chosing so carefully who can equip their cars with CCM? again, some manufacturers are being told no.

4. ...and if the market for the Z/G is so small, why does Brembo do calipers and 1pc rotors for these cars to begin with? or, if i get it right, 12.7" 2pc is a downgrade from stock, but 13.0" 2pc is an upgrade?

5. why would you come here to support Brebmo products for these cars when this market is so small? why not go to another forum where Brebmo competes with other aftermarket suppliers?

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

BremboGuy,
I have an idea...why don't you put together a kit using the Brembo rear setup that ships on the Track Model Z, combined with a new front system with greater heat capacity via a larger rotor...sort of a 'super' Track Model brake system. All you would have to do is change the piston bore in the front caliper to accomodate the larger front rotor. You can do that right?

Have you ever heard the phrase 'economies of scale?' Given Brembo's massive resources that you've so graciously reminded us about, shouldn't Brembo be able to manufacture a new disc at a very reasonable cost? Why not use your new foundry in Poland? You put it there so you can produce parts more cheaply than in Italy, right?

That's just flat out wrong. If you look at the volume of iron in each part, then yes, the stock rotors technically have a greater mass. If your goal is to get as much heat into the hat, and then into the hub and bearings (a very bad thing), this would be a brilliant strategy. That is not the goal however. The goal is to evacuate more air out of the rotor, which is what our 2-piece AeroRotors do on this platform. Weight savings is most definitely not the only advantage. Unitech Racing ran your stock Track Model rotors on their car and had all sorts of heat capacity issues....burning up pads, cracking rotors, etc. They then transitioned over to our 2-piece AeroRotors and saw substantial improvements in pad wear, rotor longevity, etc., subsequently winning their very next race. The team owner attributes much of that result to our product: http://www.stoptech.com/company_info...krelease.shtml

I know that doesn't have anything to do with F1 or carbon, so it may not interest you. That said, this is 'real world' results in the racing of a 350Z at the professional level. Our 'cheap' casting methods must be a little more effective than you give us credit for.

BremboGuy

Who says we don't build a proper system for the Z???
I have 2 proper systems available.
Both designed specifically for the Z with optimum brake balance... unspring weight reductions...increased themal capacity...firmer pedal feel...and better modulation.
What else do you need???
If you like the looks of brakes in the rear as well...we both know of at least 2 "little guys" that make them.


The carbon systems for the enzo, slr, f430, stradale ...
They have a slightly different pad and rotor composition that gives them minimal co-efficient of friction durring ambient temperatures. So this puts them in a functional zone for street driving.


We design and build as much of what the market asks for as we can.
If I went to engineering with every request I get they'd go insane.
You are correct...we do pick and choose what we introduce to the consumer.

Let me think...would I rather have engineers designing my new 6-piston monoblock caliper...or a disc to make 2pc. replacement rotors for 350Z's???




The market was large enough for me to ask for 2 different front kits.
I still stand firm that the market for Brembo 2pc. replacement discs is not large enough for us to justify a developing a new disc.

I came here because I see alot of propaganda and marketing and lack of real information.
(And because my girlfriend just bought a Z and I was bored. I actually came to see some ideas for wheels for her)

Examples:
-Brembo doesnt make a proper kit for the 350Z.
What's not proper about it??

-Brembo doesn't make their products really available..
I corrected this for you as well

Any other questions??? I'll answer them too.

BremboGuy

Actually we can't do that...
We don't have access here in High Performance to OE products.
They function as two different divisions.
OE manufacturers actually own the tooling that the systems are based on.

I actually recommend this idea to non-track model customers.
Thanks for your idea though.


Yes and No.
Reasonable cost comes with volume.
When we are talking 400,000 discs for an OE manufacturer YES.
When we are talking a couple hundred discs for a 350Z 2pc. assembly, NO.

Brembo's retail costs are higher because our manufacturing cost are higher.
If we were to make 2pc. assemblies they would retail for aprox. $1100
Now I have to compete with the "little guys" making a "similar" product for 1/2 of that. Can I sell hundreds of sets??? Maybe. Can I sell thousands??? Probably not.

We devote our resources to where it's necessary. The High Performance division, driven solely by Race Technolgies in the US, now has a new foundry specifically devoted to developing new High Performance products. Products like a New 6-piston MonoBlock caliper...New 4-piston MonoBlock soon to follow. Then a few more disc sizes for HP...and then who knows what else the market will demand.

We have foundries all over the world to produce products for 5 different divisions.
Close to 1 Billion dollars of business per year.
And while High Performance is a great part of that...they still have to be selective over what they ask for.

Bubble

iTrader: (50)

hehehe..i love this. Stoptech now have to fight with Brembo. This put them into defend mode instead of "superior mode" as they ALWAYS act in this forum for a long time. Maybe this will take up their time so they don't pick up on other manf..lolz..

btw, any Stoptech user want to send me your kit so i can test it out and i'll tell you how much different or how much better as they always claim (which i doubt) compare to Rotora. hahaha

If indeed they are better, i'll sell my Rotora and buy Stoptech right away..

VN_350z

iTrader: (3)

Stoptech Company is nothing compared to Brembo Company. It's like you try to compared Boeing with Fuang (company making airplane in China). Anyone heard of Fuang??????