The kit in my sig was purchased from Gruppe-S for $1700 shipped. I believe that pricing is ONLY for the slotted rotors and black calipers.

 

Ditto. Is there any mailing list I can get my e-mail addy on? I don't spend as much time here anymore.

 

Check the site over the next couple of weeks, or bother us with a phone call!! We will have more and more available, and of course, if we get repeated requests for items not yet available, we would look into them as well.

 

try these guys

http://www.precisionbrakescompany.com/custom.html

13" custom brake kits starting at $1000

 

Wow! That site has some great kits. All of them Willwood. The 4 piston kit w/ 13" rotor is $1200. That's sounds better than $1700! I will give my brakes one last shot before I will try these. Anyone have any experience w/ these? Obviously Willwoods are very race proven.

 

This is intriguing. It's not nearly as bullet-proof as StopTechs, I would think. But it would definitely be better than stock (non-Brembos).

 

You get what you pay for...

 

Now, about that cooling kit..........

 

Working on it. More stress testing to be accomplished this weekend, using slicks. If they can keep the brakes cool this weekend, we will finish up the design pretty quickly from there. Thanks for the interest!

 

Pardon my ignorance, why would the Willwood kit be any less bullet proof than the Stoptech kit? Do you only sell the Stoptech?

 

Good question, not ignorance...

Brake caliper designs depend on a few key parameters. First is rigidity. The overall design of the caliper will play a large roll in how rigid the caliper is. How long the caliper is, with how many bolts holding it together. Where those bolts are located, what grade of bolt is used. Quality of the metal used (not just type, but quality of type as well) for bolts and the caliper itself, as well as the piston material, material quality, and design (keep heat transfer to the brake fluid to a minimum). The bracket design, material, material quality, etc, is also important to mimimizing flex. Remember that the rotors are tryiong to rip the caliper off the car when the brake pads push against them.

You also need to think about how the brake pistons are sealed or if they are even sealed from the elements, as well as making sure that they are not only sized properly for YOUR specific application (remember, we have two different rear brake setups for the 350Z alone), but also sized correctly to counter taper wear of the brake pads, which would otherwise shorten the life expectancy of the pads.

All of these things must be considered in the design and execution of a caliper, as well as optimizing the design for the one thing the brakes are supposed to do: Turn energy into heat. The caliper must be able to deal with heat, and reject it quickly and in such a way as to not cause damage to individual pieces or sections of the calipers.

Brake companies go to varying lengths to accomplish these goals. To a large extent, that is what determines price. Companies like Brembo, Alcon, and AP Racing have taken what they have learned from years and years of racing in the most grueling events, and worked with racing teams to identify and execute solutions. You will find no Formula 1 cars using Wilwood. Nor will they be found in upper echelon endurance racing. I don't KNOW of any NASCAR Winston Cup team using Wilwoods. StopTech has taken a design, and found ways to improve on it through innovative thinking. I use their kit and sell their kits because of the conversations I had with them. The technical discussions. The willingness to try something new with the calipers on Project NT350 to optimize the track model front brake design. Their willingness to help jump in to fill our need. I also sell Brembo and AP Racing systems and components.

My brother is a crew chief for a Hooters Cup team (full time job), and they just recently incorporated Alcon brakes onto the main car they use. The driver had to re-learn how to drive the car because of the braking differences. They hate the thought of having to use the back up car now until it can be fitted with the upgraded brakes. Wilwoods, in our opinion, are a budget caliper whos designs are somewhat compromised, either by lack of engineering time or skill (market strategy to keep prices down). They are not horrible calipers which will kill anyone who uses them. On the contrary, they are an effective solution to the needs of a certain segment of the market.

LASTLY, think about the brake pad compound and shape availablity. PRetty common to see pads available from retailers for AP, Brembo, and to a lesser extent, Alcon. Your selection for Wilwood is smaller, and that keeps price competition a bit lower. ANd maybe you won't get your pads in time one day, in the compound you want.

So, those are some of the reasons that I said you get what you pay for. Hope I have answered you question .

 

Thank you. I understand what you are saying. My overall question is how this quality difference translates to my application. I am a 5-10 track event a year wannabe racer. I have pushed my brakes to the limit and know that I cannot count on them long term. I do not have experience enough to determine how much of these kits is marketing and how much is actualized. Will the Willwood 13" kit work for my usage? I only care about function, not the name forged into the caliper. Obviously I have read all the reviews of other members using Stoptech's and some AP.

 

i get these for 2K (fronts). shaves 200 bucks off of the price. rears are still in production.

 

Short answer is "I don't know". I would need to talk to you more to see what tracks you drive, how you drive now, and how you might drive in the future. What modifications you use now, and what might be down the road. Things change, and people progress. I always see people buy something now because it is adequate to their needs at the moment, only to watch them have to re-sell it a bit later because they have moved beyond its capabilities, and then spend more money to replace it. I see this with all manner of parts and pieces. I try to help people analyze their situation, and their habits in the past, and then lay down a plan to help get them where they eventually want to end up.

My personal feeling is that you want to use a product that you KNOW you can rely on. Every time. We aren't talking about something that is going to blow an engine up, or cause you to lose a few HP if it stops functioning predicatably. We are talking about the only thing that can help keep you out of a wall at high speed. Failure here can cause catastophic results. I want to make sure that I do what I can to minimize that risk. I trust what I use, and I trust what I sell. I cannot answer to the quality of every part out there. I can relay what I have experienced, what I have seen, and what I have heard, and try to identify each as such.
I would hate to tell you yes, you can trust the setup that you were talking about, and then have you go out and either have an unsatisfactory experience with it, either now or down the road somewhere. I know I can say that I trust the equipment I have outlined, and becuase of that, it is what I recommend. Having sure brakes, that don't fade, that don't break, or cause you to think about them at all, makes the task of driving easier. It frees up brain space for concentration. The names cast into the caliper can tell a story. The big ones are big because of their history, research, experience, and ability to bring ever-better solutions to market. These things take time and money, which has to come from somewhere. I see your point, and can assure you that what I just said does not apply to all fields and markets, but in the brake business, it is my opinion that it does. Other companies can get to their level, but it takes time and money, and a great and innovative product. These things come with expense. Don't be fooled that a high price in itself means the product is good, but when you are dealing with companies that have forged their considerable reputaions through research and competition achievements, it is hard to ignore them.

My fear is that you will get a kit that works for now, but then you will get faster. The car will get faster. The system will be taxed in new ways, and the only way to find out that it is not up to the job any more is by real world experience, which would suck.

There are other, more selfish reasons for wanting great brakes as well, like not giving up an inch to the guy who is just a bit faster or slower than you. But that is a secondary benefit to piece of mind.

Clear as mud???

 

To all reading this thread,

I have been sitting back reading the reply's of some people on this forum and I feel I need to step in to clarify some of the statements about Wilwood products being inferior to the likes of AP, Brembo, Alcon or StopTech.

Wilwood has been in business since 1977, and started by focusing on developing brakes for stock cars racing on super speedways and short tracks......read high horsepower cars/high weight/high braking requirements. They have a VERY successful history and continue to have a great history. They have been heavily involved in many different types of racing including road racing, speedways, dirt tracks, short tracks etc. Their products are of extremely high quality and use extensive aerospace technology for design and manufacture. They are not inferior to AP/Brembo/Alcon/Stoptech.

It is a correct statement that Wilwood has no F1 experience - neither does StopTech, does that make them inferior to the others? Wilwood has MANY MANY wins in many different racing categories, NASCAR, Busch, GrandAM Cup, Craftsman Truck Races, many many different SCCA categories. Yes Alcon, AP, Brembo and StopTech all compete in these different races.

To some degree you do get what you pay for, but that is not the case with Wilwood. They offer a very competitive product for LESS than these other companies because the can due to more efficient manfucaturing and because they don't subscribe to the theory that distributors should make a 40%+ on each sale. Price does not indicate the value of a product. Just look at the stock market crash for verification! Many in this country lost a ton in the stock market due to this flawed thinking!

Some of the statements have been worded in such a way as to draw doubt into peoples mind about the safety of Wilwood products. How about some specific examples of testing from the other companies and specific examples of what Wilwood does not do that they do....How about specifics about the deferences in material between all these products, how about specifics in relation to the rigidity of these products (I have personal witnessed a rigidity comparison of the Wilwood SL6 to the Alcon brakes - result, the Alcons flexed TWICE as much as the Wilwood as measured on a dial indicator by all parties involved!).

Brake pads; there are TONs of pads (KFP Magnum, Hawk, Axxis, PFC) that cross over to the Wilwood calipers. In addition to the many types they make themselves.

AP/Alcon/Brembo/StopTech/Wilwood ALL make very good products. They all have positives and negatives. I simply take exception to how persons are communicating that message.

To answer mcclaskz question. The answer is "Yes", the $1,200 Precision Brake kit will probably be just fine for someone only doing 5 or 6 DE's per year. That kit is not much different than the 13"AP kit or 13" Stoptech kit - Solid rotors, 4 piston calipers, steel braided lines.....

I would encourage everyone to do some of their own research to validate statements - including mine.

 

God, I love these kind of arguments, as long as they are civil. As the customer, we get to learn about what is out there and what is good or bad. Keep up the good info guys!!!!

 

Agreed! Thank you Russell, thank you racin.

 

You're welcome! I hope I didn't come across as flaming, because that was not my intent!

LaterZ

 

While I am compiling a lot of data to throw at this thread in the next day or two, I need some time to sort it out and make it digestable to the reader.

I have a couple of questions concerning the tests that you speak of in your post. What model of each caliper (Alcon and Wilwood) was used for the test? What piston sizes were used in each caliper? Were you measuring absolute deflection numbers? What temperature range was used during the test?

I too enjoy the opportunity to converse about the products available. I did not state at any time that the Wilwoods were dangerous. I alluded to the fact that brake performance is increased with the use of higher caliber calipers, and I also was suggesting that the longevity of the higher quality calipers may be better, as the components will not be as stressed over time. Stress them too hard for too long, and you can have brake failure. Plain and simple.

Anyway, this is enjoyable, and we are using this forum for its intended purpose. Give me a day or two to sift through everything and present it in a palatable fashion.

 

Great. I like to be as informed as possible on most of my purchases. My Z was the only purchase I have ever made sight unseen. Luckily it was worth it, but I'm not willing to ever take that risk again.