Installed my SPC Arms and Toe bolts today and went to get an alignment.
I attached the results. My toe seems our of spec still. Need advise, Should I take it back? I figured they could get it into spec with the toe bolt.

It is dropped on GF210.

updated picture.

 

Kinda hard to see. Anyway you could make it more visible?

 

Rear toe is definitely out of spec (it is at 0.10 left and 0.11 right per the sheet above for those who can't make it out). Take it back if you want your tires to last. Look them straight in the face and ask them if they think those specs won't cause premature tire wear. If they say yes, call them on their BS, get it realigned for no charge, and find a new alignment shop for subsequent alignments.

And don't be afraid to tell them that the machine's specs are well out of acceptable range for our cars. They did the same at my alignment shop and tried to sell me sh*tty toe specs in the name of "our machine has all the factory specs pre-loaded." When I showed them a printout from the FSM, he shut up in short order (and put it back on the rack for no charge).

 

Also, who did the toe bolt install?

 

I asked them if they were able to get it into spec and they said yes. Good thing I asked them for the specs.

I installed the toe bolts with the help of a friend and used the DIY instructions posted on here.

Is it only the rear toe that looks off? I'm going to take it back tomorrow and either ask them to get it into spec or get a refund.

 

Well I guess you should to take it up with them. They will probably say that they are within specs per the machine. You should bring a copy of the FSM alignment page to point out that their toe range is too wide.


I learned that if you're looking for anything specific from your alignment (i.e. not just the John Doe Grocery Getter) always tell the shop beforehand. Tell them exactly what you want, a range, specific values, whatever. At least that way you nix the chance of a misunderstanding.

 

Thanks for the help. Yea, I guess I will have to be more specific next time. I figured why get the SPC kit if they are going to be that far out of spec with the alignment anyways. I even told them I had the kit.

 

So the after alignment specs off the sheet are

Front:
camber -1.8 degree's (oem spec range -1.3 to +.02)
toe .04 degree's (oem spec range 0.0 to .10)
^strange, I don't see to many car's that have even front camber side to side.

Rear:
camber -1.8 degree's (oem spec range -2.1 to -1.1)
toe .10/.11 degree's (oem spec range .06 to .14)

Did I get those right?

If that's the case, according to oem spec range on the sheet, rear toe has been set within the oem spec range.

IMO, with a kit installed, rear camber is higher then I'd set it for a none track based alignment. I'd go with 1.5 or 1.3 degree's, and then look at where toe was at.

 

according to the alignment sheet the car is aligned properly..I don't see any problems. Its within specified range and your thrust angle is pretty much straight. It's only .1 off so it isn't that bad.

 

In range range by the shop's spec sheet, yes. In spec per the FSM, no.

His total rear toe: 0.21

Per my FSM (2004) total rear toe range is (A-B, 18" wheels):
Min: 0.043
Nom: 0.075
Max: 0.106


Per the FSM, his total rear toe should be no more than 0.106. I think it's too much rear toe (again, bring the FSM with you so you have something to rebut with, they are just going say it is in spec per the machine's specs).


And I agree what Gsedan35 said that depending on what you're going to do with the car, your rear camber can be dialed down and toe can be set from there.

 

Yea this is a non track car. My main concern is tire wear. I'm going to see if I can get the FSM sheet somewhere.

 

That is correct. Seems that front camber is out of spec also but from what I have heard it should be ok since they wear down at about the same pace as the rear like that,

 

I could be wrong, but his alignment sheet show's toe in degree's. The FSM which I also have, show's toe in a different measurement system, strict distance A-B. Never the less a good catch on your part, I have no idea what the formula is to convert degree's to distance.

 

PM me your email address and I can sent you the two PDF files. It's pretty much the last page on the front suspension sheet and the rear suspension sheet.

 

With a little over 92k on my car I do not agree that you'll be ok wear wise with -1.8 camber. Toe is the most important thing that much is true. But if your really concerned about wear, your going to get yourself a front camber kit and at the very least dial rear camber lower. You can flip the front tires when the inside wears out, but that's still a half measure because you will won't get as many miles out of the tire then if camber was at a lower amount.

 

I was able to the the FSM sheet using the search function
Thanks for all the input, I'm going to take it back this week. I wonder where they get their specs from and why it does not match the FSM.

 

Gsedan35's point was spot on. Although there is a discrepancy in the alignment specs between the alignment shop and the FSM, they are obviously going by degrees, not by distance. Since the FSM prescribes it's toe alignment measuring method and allowable ranges in distance, until we can figure out how to compare the two there is no way to really tell how the FSM alignment specs stack up to what the shop has loaded into their alignment machine.

I found some articles on the net that help in converting/comparing alignments in degrees to those in inches (or mm), but I would be reluctant to use any of those since their logic seems questionable (or no proof/support whatsoever). I think the formulas should be a matter of simple trig though.

 

Well I have some good news (I hope you didn’t already visit the shop )

I found the formula we need to convert toe angle in degrees to toe angle in inches. From trigonometry, we know that for any given right triangle:

sin(A) = a/h

where:
A = angle, in degrees
a = opposite side of the triangle
h = hypotenuse of the triangle

Imagine the tire sitting on an imaginary line parallel to the body of the car. The tire is sitting at an angle to this line, which represents the tire’s toe angle (‘A’ in degrees). It can also be expressed as the distance of a perpendicular line drawn from the tip of the tire to the intersection of the line parallel to the body (‘a’ - opposite side of the triangle, toe distance). This is the number we want to solve for that will give us the toe distance. Also, this forms our 90deg angle to let us calculate away.

The tire radius represents the hypotenuse of the triangle (‘h’).

Now, keep in mind that toe distance (the number you see in the FSM) per individual side (left, right) is calculated using the A-B method, only imagine a line parallel to the body in it’s center as the starting point for each line, A &B. You then perform the A-B method like normal (B = front of car). Total toe uses the total distance from tire to tire.

Or we could have done it the easy way and doubled the radius, or used tire diameter

Tire size for a 245/45/18 (stock 18” tire sizes):
Radius: 13.34”
Diameter: 26.68”


So that gives us:
sin(a) = a/h;
sin(toe angle in deg) = toe distance/tire diameter
or
a = sin(a)*h
toe distance = sin(toe angle in deg)*tire diameter


Rear left = sin(0.10)*26.68” = 0.047” (rounded up)
Rear right = sin(0.11)*26.68” = 0.051”

Total rear toe: sin (0.21)*26.68" = 0.098" (rounded up)

Looks like your toe was in spec after all.