TurTLe

iTrader: (7)

Hey guys, I'm not a Z owner buy close enough.. i'm a AWD- G sedan owner. Since the suspension is roughly the same i figure i'll ask here as well.

I'm lowered about 1.5 inches all around on BC coilovers. I recently installed the SPC toe and camber kit for the REAR only. ( used the sticky here for the toe bolt)

Instantly when i lowered down to the ground i saw toe was f-ed up on left side. Drove it around the block it and was trackking RIGHT and VDC/SLip was on ( i know that is common ) drove it to firestone and had the guys work on it.

I told them about the new camber and toe stuff and they said thats fine.

He aligned it and and told me, it was the best he could with the rear left toe.




according to my knowledge, the bolt is fully maxed out in this picture for the driver side



Now what should/can i do..... I'm not lowered extreme as you guys are only at 1.5inchs which in a sense is closer to your Z's stock height.

it was mentioned to me to possibly pick up these toe arms, megan and stillen has them along with ebay branded ones. I'm not sure will that help me. I just need a little more toe... Any help and thoughts would be really great as this is my daily and well... 1 degree of toe i think will eat my tire up by the end of the month...

another suggest was to entend the hole more towards the car in attempts to get me more room, this i like because its a free option and i dont have to wait for parts.

Nexx

iTrader: (41)

did you dremel out the opening per the installation instructions? it doesnt look like it to me.

dikspiel

iTrader: (70)

time to upgrade to something better than the spc toe bolts?

TurTLe

iTrader: (7)

i did...i was thinking i can go back and go past the template...

i used that PDF we have in the DIY section. pretty simple and straight forward. Now if this bolt had to have a certain spacer facing one way then i did that wrong. But both had the same label 70xxx and same diameter. I made the numbers face outward both side.

I rather you ask all the small questions to make sure i didn't over look anything... keep coming with it.

Not sure how i can do one side very nicely and one completely F-ed up.

When reinstalling i left them both upright ( the ecentric ) because they were upright when i removed them.

What is better, i was understood that SPC was the only kit to get for the rears....

dikspiel

iTrader: (70)

SPC is the cheapest kit to get for the rears...

SPL, Battleversion, Cusco makes toe rods as well...

terrasmak

iTrader: (8)

Add camber in the rear, tell them you want -1.2 to -2.1 and you will be able to get your toe in spec.

jkocr2

iTrader: (2)

exactly! thats what i had to do on my buddies g coupe.

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

It sounds like to me that you elongated the slots (doctors pills) correctly.........if thats done correctly on both sides, then you should be able to get your drivers side same as your passenger side........

This I have seen before and seen it with torn bushings...

Check your bushings on all your other points..down there, check the bushing at The fwd arm - the radius rod. its the fwd most arm that points "about" front to back.

Q:
1. What size tires and wheels do you have? This could be why your off? please fill us in on what tires/wheel size you have in the rear/front too while your at it.
2. Did you watch them do your alignment or did you wait in the "waiting room" ??

I ask this because, did the alignment tech - during start up of the alignment machine, did he ENTER the correct wheel and tire size into the computer or did he just click on "next, next, next" and ignore the prompts...........

Especially if you have aftermarket or alternate sized wheels/tires he should have paid attention to that.... and measured the wheel with the big plastic calipers and manually entered the info into the alignment computer.

-- this wouldnt be why one side is worst than the other...but its what needs to be done -- correctly!

3. BC coilovers you mention? are those what they refer to as "true coilovers" where there is no spring in the spring bucket??? as in, the rear coilover is a shock and spring mounted ONLY at the oem rear shock location.

I mention item two because yes, toe arms are available to get your car in spec welll...

4. Did the alignment tech start with the back first then the front like hes supposed to???


HOWEVER, it seems to me that something else is going on here and first off i would definately take the car back.

INEXPERIENCED ALIGNMENT TECH!!!!
I call inexperience alignment tech on this with the "INFO GIVEN"

1. your rear camber is far off...
LEFT -0.7
RIGHT -0.2

The ultimate aim with alignment is symetry on both sides unless your doing nothing but left hand turns - i.e. Nascar weenies....

2. I agree completely with Terrasmacks post #6 - he should have at least tried for -1.1 and if not go a bit higher to then correct toe.......

I know he didnt do that because both sides are low in the range......being -0.7 and -0.2..............

Also, your front CASTER being out of spec on the LEFT side tells me you should inspect your Compression arm bushing.....the u shaped/boomerang shapped lower arm that connects to the body side..

-J

TurTLe

iTrader: (7)

Check your bushings on all your other points..down there, check the bushing at The fwd arm - the radius rod. its the fwd most arm that points "about" front to back.

you got any pictures of this...


It sounds like to me that you elongated the slots (doctors pills) correctly.........if thats done correctly on both sides, then you should be able to get your drivers side same as your passenger side........
i didn't do both side, i only cut towards the car, so driver side hole went RIGHT and pass side went LEFT, the sticky in your DIY section did that and i copied it to a T.



1. What size tires and wheels do you have?
STOCK 215/55/17 or w/e stock sedan 17's are. this should be correct as 95% of AWD sedans are running 17's


2. Did you watch them do your alignment or did you wait in the "waiting room" ??
I watched him from the lot for a little bit. customers not allowed to go back, this was a firestone... car blocked view of computer.

3. BC coilovers you mention? there is a spring in bucket. its a 2 peice rear system and 1 peice in front.

I mention item two because yes, toe arms are available to get your car in spec welll... given my situation do you think toe arms would be my best option... aside from elongating the slot... My understanding of this toe bolt. This is refering to the left bolt and me at the trunk of the car. the further right (towards the car) the bolt goes, the more toe closer toe gets to zero. or am i looking at it the OTHER way around and the bolt needs to go LEFT outward..

4. Did the alignment tech start with the back first then the front like hes supposed to???
not 100% i know he loosen the stuff in the rear first but he didn't do any adjustments. Then i was busy talking to the advisor.



my front caster... we can worry about that later. I do need to do the bushings... but that is for another time. Main goal is TOE, as this can kill tires in 1000 miles. right?
----------------------

how much toe is increase/decrease when lowering the car 1.5inches. Just ball park ?

This is what i was planning on doing. Since i need to do something RIGHT now. I'm going to try to enlongate the hole even more past the template, while i'm in there i'll just pull my suspension off. And get it aligned.

I got some time next month off to play around with either buying toe bars or try another methods

Thermal1

iTrader: (23)

^ Nice post Jason.
I wish I could +rep you.

I don't think elongating the hole will help. The eccentric washer will just hit the metal tabs on the sides.

Like someone else said: I think it sounds like the tech just did not want to work on it very hard. The numbers should be more symmetrical and he should have messed with the rear camber to get the toe closer to spec as well.

TurTLe

iTrader: (7)

it might it might not. but i cant drive with it like this for a month. so i gotta try again next month when i have time off.

Since i'm pulling off the suspension and in the back of my head, i feel that maybe i didn't elongate it enough. when i did it, i was being on the conservative side as i wasn't going for a LOW drop. So i might of not trimmed it all the way. If my car tracks someone decent after removing all this. I'll go to a diffrent firestone, otherwise back to the same one.

what i dont understand is prior to this EVERYTHING was decent. well i didn't get a full alignment but i ran over one those quick alignment check and it stated everything was near or close to specs. after i installed that, it went crazy. SPC toe bolts +/- 3 degrees. I'm off 3degrees going in. ideally i would expect something better then 1.08. I'm going to remember to ask about increaseing the camber.

jason, your thinking it can be a worn bushing. I assume this bushing comes as a new rod assembly, ball park price on that?

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

OKay, i read both your post after mine, and this is what I gather now.

1. FIRST OFF, before you remove anything ensure the eccentric washer on the head side of the bolt (shown in pic of post #1) is identical to the nut side of the bolt........I HAVE SEEN THESE BOLTS TURN PAST THE FLAT SECTION OF THE BOLT and them not match front side to back side,

another words, look on both washers ON the drivers side! ensure that the washer on the nut side of the bolt is pointed in the same direction as the head side of the bolt.....

I have seen this! see what happens is if you notice, the bolt is milled flat on one section and the washers are to go on only one way, however, there is a lot of SLOP in them and the bolt will spin and the washer will stay stuck and power over the "FLAT" section of the washer and the dumb azz alignment tech wont notice that the nut side washer is not following the head side washer?? get it???


2. Do not elongate the slot (doctors pill) any more than the template shows.........if you feel you did a conservative elongation then remove the bolt and place the template back on there and ensure its per the template, but more than the template IS NOT GOOD! - and yes, you did it right on elongating the inside only per the DIY........the other side is if you raise the car?? lol..no body does that....

3. when you do remove the bolt, ensure you got both sides of the aluminum subframe and didnt forget to do the other??

4. you mention you have a 2 part rear coilover system - with a spring in the spring bucket............ENSURE that the driverside spring is installed correctly in the spring bucket as there is a raised area to accept the spring only ONE way...........THEN ensure that the height adjustment "if" your coilovers have that are the same height...........having the drivers side a few threads higher on the adjustment can screw with this since the spring bucket "IS" the toe adjustment bucket..

also, that being said - since you have a spring in the spring bucket coilover system the only toe arm available i know of is the "SPL PRO rear mid links" which accepts the spring still..

In my honest opinion i feel one of those is off...........as a 1.5 inch drop with stock tires "WILL" come back into spec with the spc toe bolts. This is obviously someting else going one.

my bet is its either #1 or #4 with me leaning more to #1 as the washers pointed wrong from nut side versus head side of that single bolt ON the drivers side is most likely off.........

check that and get back.

also, post pics..........of everything...the more info the better always..

-J

TurTLe

iTrader: (7)

i thought i posted the front picture... here it is. you can barely see it



1. looks to be on par with the other side for the most part. reading about toe bolts, normally a full 90* would mean its max. both ecentrics on that side are like a near but closer to 75-80*.

what is up with the pass side, its facing downwards...

2. most likely i will try. like i said i shaved/enlongate this thinking i didn't really need it all that much so i wasn't trimming to the max of the template.

3. i'm sure i did both sides. but as always it NEVER hurts to double check while i'm there.

4. my height adjustment is on the shock from what i know. The spring adjustment is only for preload. This is what i understand. But it could off a thread or two. I never count threads, just use tape measure.

That SPL midlink you speak of, that is just spring bucket in a sense correct? That price tag is WAY out of budget for me. its about 1/2 the cost of my coilovers. If i do need that, that i dont think i want to go the lowered car route.

I'm trying to find some time between work/school to take my suspension off and go another alignment at a diffrent shop. I dont have a lot of time this month to play around with it. School is out next month and thats when i can play the alignment game again.

Thanks a lot jason, you have been a GREAT help in me understand and learning. I'll take pictures when i remove my bolt.

oh someone mentioned to me, i have a bad spring bucket. maybe slightly bent or something. There are no specs per FSM on this.

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

Yeah, its hard to tell from the pic, if you can get a better one of it on both sides that would be good.


yeah, if they are following each other, then good.

yes, from your pic on post #1 it does look just about maxed, thats again what leads me to believe something else is going on.

sure, get the template on there and elongate to the template, but more doesnt help you. in the end the ecentric washer has to fit between the two flat spots. doing the slot more than that does nothing for it...


yep, worth it to check.

Either way, ensure both are identical to the passenger side and ensure that the spring bucket perch and spring are seated correctly in the spring bucket.

The spring bucket has a notch in it where the spring is intended to go
see here:


Ya, im bringing it up to be clear on what other options are out there, "IF" everything else is correct, but IN ALL HONESTY, you shouldnt be having this problem with that 1.5" drop and stock tires, etc.....

so i say keep working at it and find the issue.. cuase yes it is quite expensive, but it is an ADJUSTABLE spring perch is all that it is, which adjust toe.

I hear that, good luck with it.

sounds good. the more pics the better.

that can be true, however you said everything was fine prior to the installs so i have a feeling its a minor thing missed on the driverside versus the passenger side.

jack the car up, and take your time removing/working backwards and keep a close eye on everything and you should be able to find the issue..

if you need, pm me and we can talk via cell..
-J

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

I'd make sure you got the right kit for your car - it is not the same between an AWD G and a Z/RWD G

http://www.spcalignment.com/PROD_DIR...ARCH_INTRO.cfm

terrasmak

iTrader: (8)

If all fails, have the alignment guy add camber, once you add more camber -1.4 will be great for the street, you will have a lot more toe adjustment.

TurTLe

iTrader: (7)

two quick questions... i should have time thrusday or the weekend to work with this.

1. with my toe being the way it is... how much tire wear is this going to cause me.... i do a 25-30mile round trip daily.

2. if i had about -1.5 camber to the rear and nothing in front ( well its currently at -.04 and -1.1 ) does effect the car handling?

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

who knows? hard to tell with road surfaces, tire wear rating, etc, etc...but its obviously not good........i would say do your driving and inspect after each trip???

rear at -1.5 should be fine.....tire wear with in toe spec will be minimal on the inside edge, but watch it either way....but like i said, i think when you get time to work in it, you will find the error....

(looking at your pic, i see "current measurements" at -0.5 and -1.1)

The difference in front is whats hurting you - your alignment tech didnt know his head from his .......well ya know...

Tire develops its maximum cornering force at a small negative camber angle, typically around neg. 1/2 degree. (you have a difference of .6 degree's) This fact is due to the contribution of camber thrust, which is an additional lateral force generated by elastic deformation as the tread rubber pulls through the tire/road interface (the contact patch).

Your car will slightly pull to one side on a flat highway.

-J

TurTLe

iTrader: (7)

But what he can he about that camber in front... if i dont have a kit... he gave me a sheet to say on there is no alignment specs on adjustments for front camber/caster.


i'm trying to gather enough info to go to the shop.

After i do all my checks and ready to take it back to them.

1. if they cant get it rear TOE back into specs, tell them i want to go as far as -1.5 rear camber on BOTH SIDES to even out my LEFT rear toe. Should i aim for 0 toe or a little bit +/-

2. tell them i want identical rear CAMBER on both sides. or least .1 off

I wanna get all the scenrios out.

If he can bring toe back should i have everything just even.

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

okay, sorry i didnt realize you didnt have front UCA's....

that being said then, i would think that your front compression arm bushing is torn or off centered in its rubber??? due to the out of spec caster shown...

I would take it back there only if your confident you can stand and watch and ensure he does it right this time...........

or

take it to another shop...

aim for in spec toe and symmetry in everything else........

in camber you could live with at max about .5 off, but definately aim for everything the same....

yes, once again, everything the same...

first off, do the things i mentioned and ensure the ds was installed correctly, spring in the perch and toe bolt elongation on both sides of the lug, etc...inspect it all well..

-J