FINALLY! a camber/toe mod that works!!
11-14-2003, 03:41 PM
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FINALLY! a rear camber/toe mod that works!!
I have LSD's camber/traction rods. I went today to an alignment shop to have the rear aligned after installing them. We spent a few hours checking out the rear suspension. Camber was easy to adjust.... just turn the turnbuckle on the rod and dial it in.
Problem is the toe get's nasty when the camber is brought back to within -1.5.... the resultant effect is WAY too much toe-in.
I had this problem on the right side. The left side came to within spec but barely. The right side had +.42" of toe-in when the camber was dialed to -1.6.
Contrary to what most believe traction rods do not really adjust toe. Their attachement point is right inline with the angle of inclination. Lengthening/shortening of the traction rod results in rear caster adjustment only.
I know... I know.... some of you may say that your alignment shop used the traction rod to adjust the toe.... while they may have, what really happened is the toe that was "adjusted" was really a byproduct of a caster change. Chances are your caster is not what it should be.
So now I'm thinkning I'm screwed.... I take the car home and think about it for a few hours..... Then the lightbulb lit up!
I took off the rear lower control arm (the one the spring sits in). I saw that if I milled out the hole in the outter end of the arm (end closest to the tire) to a slot as opposed to a prefect circle it would allow me to relocate the bolt to the inside by about 3/16". Essentially the same thing that the frame has for the other side of the arm that uses a cam.
To lock the bolt in place, I drilled and tapped 4-40 threaded holes and screwed in (with RED Loctite) stainless allen bolts that act as "locking pins"
This new bolt location pulls the rear of the spindle in a good amount.
After this mod I found that the toe had TONS more adjustment! My stock toe cam isn't even maxed out and I have perfect toe now. My camber is set at -1.4 now.
Finally the solution to my toe/camber problem in the rear. IMO this is a must if your dropped 1.3" or more.
Total time to complete was about 1 hour.
Tools used:
17mm wrench
19mm wrench
Dremel with carbide milling cutter (and a steady hand)
4-40 tap with #43 drill bit
4-40 stainless Allen bolts cut to 3/8" long
Red Loctite
6-32 bolts could be used instead of 4-40's.... I had no 6-32's on hand.
A few pics below to illustrate the mod.
My alignment shop guy was amazed at how simple the fix was.... you'll be too if you try it.
Problem is the toe get's nasty when the camber is brought back to within -1.5.... the resultant effect is WAY too much toe-in.
I had this problem on the right side. The left side came to within spec but barely. The right side had +.42" of toe-in when the camber was dialed to -1.6.
Contrary to what most believe traction rods do not really adjust toe. Their attachement point is right inline with the angle of inclination. Lengthening/shortening of the traction rod results in rear caster adjustment only.
I know... I know.... some of you may say that your alignment shop used the traction rod to adjust the toe.... while they may have, what really happened is the toe that was "adjusted" was really a byproduct of a caster change. Chances are your caster is not what it should be.
So now I'm thinkning I'm screwed.... I take the car home and think about it for a few hours..... Then the lightbulb lit up!
I took off the rear lower control arm (the one the spring sits in). I saw that if I milled out the hole in the outter end of the arm (end closest to the tire) to a slot as opposed to a prefect circle it would allow me to relocate the bolt to the inside by about 3/16". Essentially the same thing that the frame has for the other side of the arm that uses a cam.
To lock the bolt in place, I drilled and tapped 4-40 threaded holes and screwed in (with RED Loctite) stainless allen bolts that act as "locking pins"
This new bolt location pulls the rear of the spindle in a good amount.
After this mod I found that the toe had TONS more adjustment! My stock toe cam isn't even maxed out and I have perfect toe now. My camber is set at -1.4 now.
Finally the solution to my toe/camber problem in the rear. IMO this is a must if your dropped 1.3" or more.
Total time to complete was about 1 hour.
Tools used:
17mm wrench
19mm wrench
Dremel with carbide milling cutter (and a steady hand)
4-40 tap with #43 drill bit
4-40 stainless Allen bolts cut to 3/8" long
Red Loctite
6-32 bolts could be used instead of 4-40's.... I had no 6-32's on hand.
A few pics below to illustrate the mod.
My alignment shop guy was amazed at how simple the fix was.... you'll be too if you try it.
Last edited by N74DV; 11-14-2003 at 04:07 PM.
11-18-2003, 08:43 AM
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a newer version of this mod has evolved. I have ordered a pair of cam bolts from Nissan. The bolts I have ordered are the same ones used on the lower control arm to adjust the toe.
Essentially, I will have cam adjustments at both ends of the control arm now instead of the fixed method at the outer end I showed above.
This will allow for double the amount of rear toe adjustment the car has stock... which due to the Z's rear geometry, will allow for a more aggresive ride height and still be able to pull out excessive negative camber.
Pics when I get the bolts and install them.
Essentially, I will have cam adjustments at both ends of the control arm now instead of the fixed method at the outer end I showed above.
This will allow for double the amount of rear toe adjustment the car has stock... which due to the Z's rear geometry, will allow for a more aggresive ride height and still be able to pull out excessive negative camber.
Pics when I get the bolts and install them.
Last edited by N74DV; 11-18-2003 at 09:02 AM.
11-18-2003, 10:12 AM
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not really.... it's a stainless bolt with a shear strength of greater than 60Kpsi. Besides, that bolt is merely a locating pin, it is under small amounts of shear. The control arm bolt stays put mostly by clamping force when torqued.
although.....a 6-32 locating pin would be much better than 4-40 and when I install the cam bolts I'll make that change.
although.....a 6-32 locating pin would be much better than 4-40 and when I install the cam bolts I'll make that change.
Last edited by N74DV; 11-18-2003 at 10:15 AM.
11-19-2003, 02:13 PM
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Hey N74DV,
You did not have to make any of the mods that you made to get the toe set correctly. Once you mounted the new Camber rods from LSD all you had to do is adjust BOTH the new Camber rod and the existing rear trailing link arm where it attaches to the frame. There is more than enough adjustment in boths arms to get the Camber to -1.0 degree and Toe to 0.0 degree.
I know I installed the LSD Camber rods on my 350Z and got it within .25 degree Toe before I even took it to get aligned.
You did not have to make any of the mods that you made to get the toe set correctly. Once you mounted the new Camber rods from LSD all you had to do is adjust BOTH the new Camber rod and the existing rear trailing link arm where it attaches to the frame. There is more than enough adjustment in boths arms to get the Camber to -1.0 degree and Toe to 0.0 degree.
I know I installed the LSD Camber rods on my 350Z and got it within .25 degree Toe before I even took it to get aligned.
11-19-2003, 02:19 PM
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not on mine(and several other Z's that I know of)... my toe was at .4" (about 5 degrees!) with the stock toe cam maxed out.
Last edited by N74DV; 11-19-2003 at 02:21 PM.
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12-01-2003, 09:09 AM
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Interesting stuff N74DV.
When I receive LSD's Camber set, I will also discuss this with my frame/allignment shop. Although I too think there may be other options than the small screw you inserted (it just seems it would come under too much stress eventually).
When I receive LSD's Camber set, I will also discuss this with my frame/allignment shop. Although I too think there may be other options than the small screw you inserted (it just seems it would come under too much stress eventually).
12-01-2003, 10:09 AM
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everyone seems to be concerned about that screw. no worries... the screw is just a locating pin under little stress. The clamping force of the bolt itself keeps it located.
12-19-2003, 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by N74DV
everyone seems to be concerned about that screw. no worries... the screw is just a locating pin under little stress. The clamping force of the bolt itself keeps it located.
everyone seems to be concerned about that screw. no worries... the screw is just a locating pin under little stress. The clamping force of the bolt itself keeps it located.
I understand your thinking
01-02-2004, 03:25 PM
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nothing new to report. I tried the cam bolt trick but didn't work as planed.
However, I did change the small locating bolt from a 4-40 to an 8-32. Much larger bolt with greather strength for the skeptics.
I've driven over 1,000 miles so far (about 500 of them pretty damn hard). So far so good.
I've also recieved som reports from others who have done this mod and are very happy with it.
However, I did change the small locating bolt from a 4-40 to an 8-32. Much larger bolt with greather strength for the skeptics.
I've driven over 1,000 miles so far (about 500 of them pretty damn hard). So far so good.
I've also recieved som reports from others who have done this mod and are very happy with it.
01-08-2004, 03:56 PM
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You Guys are Friggin' Nuts!
I hope your spouse has a good life insurance policy on you! You're insane! Did you use Grade 8 Hardware? Stainless is softer than regular steel! Especially on fasteners. Shear strength is the least of your worries. What about the radius of gyration... how bout the maximum moment(s).
You aren't subjecting the pieces to stresses coming from single vectors or planes - much less at individual moments in time. Have you calculated the sum of all the forces subjected at any one given moment? Or the degredation of the material when subjected to these stresses [that they're not designed for]through thousands of cycles (probably per day)?
You need to replace your A-Arm(s) before you kill yourself.
What are you friggin' thinking?! Let me know what roads you're on so I can take pictures when your suspension dissassembles itself.
I hope you fellow readers aren't really thinking of doing this?
...... wow. I'm worried about you.
Bridges & Buildings don't fail right after the ribbon cutting ceremony. They collapse when there are lots of people on (or in) them.
You aren't subjecting the pieces to stresses coming from single vectors or planes - much less at individual moments in time. Have you calculated the sum of all the forces subjected at any one given moment? Or the degredation of the material when subjected to these stresses [that they're not designed for]through thousands of cycles (probably per day)?
You need to replace your A-Arm(s) before you kill yourself.
What are you friggin' thinking?! Let me know what roads you're on so I can take pictures when your suspension dissassembles itself.
I hope you fellow readers aren't really thinking of doing this?
...... wow. I'm worried about you.
Bridges & Buildings don't fail right after the ribbon cutting ceremony. They collapse when there are lots of people on (or in) them.
Last edited by BLOBYU; 01-08-2004 at 04:18 PM.
01-08-2004, 04:40 PM
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whatever dude...... I design and build airplanes. I know hardware and I know stresses.
I have over 1500 HARD miles on this mod with no ill effects as of yet.
I have over 1500 HARD miles on this mod with no ill effects as of yet.
01-09-2004, 05:54 AM
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In animation studios?
Originally posted by N74DV
whatever dude...... I design and build airplanes. I know hardware and I know stresses.
I have over 1500 HARD miles on this mod with no ill effects as of yet.
whatever dude...... I design and build airplanes. I know hardware and I know stresses.
I have over 1500 HARD miles on this mod with no ill effects as of yet.
.........wow.
01-09-2004, 06:01 AM
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i didn't say I design and build them for a living.
here's my latest plane if you don't believe me.
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
who feels like a dumba$$ now ??
here's my latest plane if you don't believe me.
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
who feels like a dumba$$ now ??
01-09-2004, 06:03 AM
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Algorithms for physics of Microsoft Flight Sim 4 don't count.
Hardware: You must not build the correct parts of the aircraft if you are using the equivalent pop rivets (skin material fasteners) and stainless steel non-grade 8 hardware.
You design and 'build' airplanes and you're modifying major suspension components with a DREMEL TOOL?! You've changed the geometry of the suspension and are relying on your 'fasteners' to keep the thing together? - ".......dude?"
Suspension engineering firms like Eibach, STILLEN, JIC and NISMO are opting to develop toe arms and camber arms in favor of drilling into a cast piece of aluminum .... with a friggin DREMEL TOOL much less a punch or drill press or HAAS CNC.
You are correct .... about something. Just not this.
Think man. Think.
Hardware: You must not build the correct parts of the aircraft if you are using the equivalent pop rivets (skin material fasteners) and stainless steel non-grade 8 hardware.
You design and 'build' airplanes and you're modifying major suspension components with a DREMEL TOOL?! You've changed the geometry of the suspension and are relying on your 'fasteners' to keep the thing together? - ".......dude?"
Suspension engineering firms like Eibach, STILLEN, JIC and NISMO are opting to develop toe arms and camber arms in favor of drilling into a cast piece of aluminum .... with a friggin DREMEL TOOL much less a punch or drill press or HAAS CNC.
You are correct .... about something. Just not this.
Think man. Think.
01-09-2004, 06:04 AM
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what are you? some kind of wanna be engineer?
by the way, the arms are not CAST like you say. They are FORGED bright guy.
I'll post back in 12 months with another 15K miles on my car and let you know how well everything is still holding up.
Wanna place a money wager on this? I'll put down a $10,000 bet right now that says my mod will NEVER have any problems.
Are you so sure of yourself that you'll take me up on this bet?
by the way, the arms are not CAST like you say. They are FORGED bright guy.
I'll post back in 12 months with another 15K miles on my car and let you know how well everything is still holding up.
Wanna place a money wager on this? I'll put down a $10,000 bet right now that says my mod will NEVER have any problems.
Are you so sure of yourself that you'll take me up on this bet?
Last edited by N74DV; 01-09-2004 at 06:09 AM.
01-09-2004, 06:06 AM
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oh..... sorry. Let me buy the pre-engineered (key word being PRE-friggin' Engineered) and do the same. I still wouldn't risk my life or other people's lives on a couple of stainless steel fasteners.
The beauty of pre-engineered is that they HAVE ALREADY DONE ALL OF THE ENGINEERING...
The beauty of pre-engineered is that they HAVE ALREADY DONE ALL OF THE ENGINEERING...