Spike100

OMG… The Best Legs in the Room

And… Before anyone has a chance to evil-comment about the wheel/tire fitment… Let me say: That car needs a slight drop.

She’s a beauty though. I see what you mean about the Nismo wheels. They look MAVELUS

MicVelo

Thanks!

But nawww, NOT lowering the car. After pushing it up in the hills on it's maiden shakedown/test run couple days ago, feel it needs nothing. Out of the box as good handling as my silver Z with the new Koni suspension. Serious. The Yamaha/Autech (Nismo) suspension set up is THAT good.

And for what the car is intended - sort of an investment (but I'm not fooling myself that it's a "good" investment, haha), weekend only, couple thousand miles a year car - I'd like to preserve the originality. I still have my other Z (and wife's 370 carp) to get my "g-force-jollies". (And my DD Volvo ain't no slouch either....)

So ya, likely will leave it completely stock (but will enjoy the hills in it nonetheless).

Going to adjust the clutch take-up (engagement way too high now), do all the fluids and she's good to go.

Just to keep this on topic, I will say that the Yamaha/Autech suspension sits, comfort wise, right in between my previous Bilstein B6/Eibach setup and the existing Koni/Eibach setup on my silver car. Very streetable but also very "pushable" in the twisties!


Off-camber dog-leg left - right on-camber combo. Really shows off a suspension's high (and low) points. Heh heh.

Wife thinks I'm really weird that I dream about being out on one of those....

Mic

RobPhoboS

I installed my Driftworks camber arms on the weekend, as well as new brake bleed valves/covers and bled the brakes (still a bit spongy for me ).
I've currently set the camber to -1.5 (approx), most likely will get it to -2 so that there is a bit more thread back in the joint. I think for street driving this should be ok.
I'll have it back for an alignment at a proper garage as I'm just doing it with one of those spirit level gauges.

MicVelo

Just a follow-up to my exhaustively long comparison post on Koni and Bilstein set-ups.

Usual Disclaimer/Warning: This is sorta long (cuz I can't shut up, but prefer to be cited for being long winded rather than for providing incomplete information.)

This time a brief comparison between the above mentioned set-ups as compared to factory Nismo suspension. Granted, this is more a whole car comparison as the Nismo suspension tested is as it was installed at the factory on my '08 Nismo RATHER THAN a retrofit of Nismo components onto my '03 Enthusiast. But see below for where this might benefit all Z owners.

Executive Summary:

Last iteration on my Enthusiast is/was Koni Yellow sport shocks, Eibach Pro Kit springs, Hotchkis adjustable sway bars, SBC F&R camber adjustment, all controlling a set of Track V.1s and a set of Sumitomo HTR-Z-3 and how they meet the road.

Ride comfort (in descending order of "comfort"):

1. Bilstein set-up
2. Nismo OEM set-up
3. Koni set-up

Note: If you want to read up on my perspective comparing Bilstein v. Koni set ups, go back to earlier in this thread.

Nismo suspension goes immediately to the middle of the ranking based upon "seat of the pants" assessment. With my having put some 350 miles on my Nismo now, I rank this an even more civilized ride than the Konis on my Enthusiast. Firm and a little bit bumpy at times but overall, much more compliant than the Konis/Eibach pairing.

Handling:

A little background for those not familiar with the Nismo setup: Springs are firmer than standard '08 350Z (all trims) and the shocks are supplied to Nissan by Tokico and tuned/spec'd by Yamaha/Autech.

Note: There is much misinformation about this..... some people say OEM supplier is KYB, others Tokico, I even read where someone said they were made by Monroe. Well, for all I know, they MIGHT be BUILT by someone like that for Yamaha, BUT, they are Yamaha designed and sourced.

The shocks are valved to work with the revised spring rates and in conjunction with slightly-different-from-all-trims-350Z suspension geometry settings.

Add to this a revised (larger) rear sway bar while the front remains standard sized.

The net result is a suspension system that is geared towards complete neutral steer (through an increase in rear roll stiffness; effectively eliminating most tendencies towards understeer.)

TESTING and EVALUATION:

I took the Nismo out on it's maiden voyage up Hwy 9 (out of Saratoga, CA) up to the 9 & 35 junction. (My usual "testing grounds" and lead off point for longer runs through the coastal mountains to Santa Cruz and points North).



On this first time out, I made it a short run prior to it getting dark. I didn't push the car as hard as I push my Enthusiast. Why? Well, the car, while still a Z - is very different TO ME. Tires (OEM Bridgestone RE050s) react differently. Brakes MUCH better than my non-Brembos. Clutch pedal much lighter, higher grab point (forcing me to alter timing of shifts/downshifts). Steering is lighter as well. The HR (versus DE) engine delivers different peak torque points. Essentially like driving a completely different car despite the same name.

Yet, despite my "unfamiliarity" with the car, was still able to push the car to reasonably fast speeds with no weird handling traits to have to familiarize myself with.

My second and third day of running it, I pushed quite a bit harder and NOT to my surprise, found that the car was perfectly capable of matching entry and exit speeds with my Enthusiast. And this is out-of-the-box-STOCK.

GREAT suspension control. No drama, no clunks, no suspension bottoming nor over extension due to unbelievable rebound control. Nothing. This was really evident in the combinations..... off camber to on camber L-Rs, with virtually no re-set time in the transitions. It just remained composed and set, ready for any transition, no matter how short the chutes were between the curves.



So, to assess the NISMO suspension as compared to my Bilstein & Koni setups... "WOW" is about all I can say. Nismo folks proved once again, why they are such a force on the tracks around the world.

But is it BETTER than either of the other set ups?

Yes and No. Yes, in that it's factory stock and it does at least an equal job to the others. No, in that it's waaaay expensive to retrofit a complete Nismo suspension for the entire stock suspension on all non-Nismo cars.

That said, however, I think there's a LOT to be said about upgrading to Nismo SPRINGS and at least a Nismo rear SWAY BAR and matching that with "aftermarket" shocks - in this case BILSTEIN OR KONI. (Basing your decision on the comfort versus adjustability trade-off noted in my earlier post comparing them).

BUT, for me, on THIS CAR, I see no need for improvements (to suit my driving - which is not a lot in this car as I'd like to preserve it in its original form). But know that when I do take it out, I can throw as much at it as I do my Enthusiast with its warmed over suspension and have just as much fun (if not more due to some other things the car has going for it.)

All in all, perhaps the best handling car I've ever owned in out-of-the-box STOCK form.

That all said, OP here, Spike, got the combination right with his Bilstein-Nismo-Tein setup. But any of the set-ups I've reviewed of late work for me as well.

Cheers,

Mic

Spike100

Mic, Thanks for additional info. Your comparisons are very interesting. They are valuable to people evaluating suspension components and setups for their Z's.

I absolutely love your "Test Track," which is probably the most scenic than anyone else uses.

Joel Dunn

Santa Cruz Mountains are the greatest!!! I used to drive up there all the time testing the mods I made to my 93 240sx

MicVelo

We are blessed to have such great roads to run here in the SF Bay Area.

Truthfully, still learning these particular roads. I grew up in SF and lived in East Bay for a long time so I know the roads up there really well - Radio Road in Brisbane, Twin Peaks in SF, Redwood and Grizzly Peak roads over in the East Bay Hills - and only occasionally ran on Hwy 9. And, lest I neglect to mention, two of the greatest road courses (well, they're my home tracks and I schooled at both, so of course I'm going to say that... ) - Sears Point and Laguna Seca - a stone's throw from anywhere in the Bay metro.

But now, living in the South Bay, have pick of all the coastal mountain roads right in my backyard! These are pretty much "year round" roads but for the fog and occasionally heavy rains.

I see LOTS of cars, motorcycles, and cyclists out on these roads - particularly on weekends - so it's kind of "off limits" to any really fast drives during high times but early morning runs can be had at about 1.5 to 2x posted.... so long as one is wary of others.

Hmmmm, would love to see/read about other epic drives. I'm enamored with the thought of driving the "Tail of the Dragon" (North Carolina) even though it's a bike haven.

And if someone told me I could take one of my Z's and have a go at the road to Hana (Maui, HI) in a one time, one direction shot from the airport side to Hana and back around the backside of Haleakala volcano, I would sign up to do that run in a nanosecond! (I've driven that road in a rental car, probably 5-6 times in my life and wished I had it alllllll to myself in a "real car". Hahahaha!)

For reference, that road is 52 miles with 620 curves, 59 bridges (like short, one lane only bridges) and many many "Yield to oncoming traffic" stops. So, gimme my Z and a closed road designation and my bucket list of "roads to drive" is complete!!

Ahhh, but I fantasize and am now upset because I can't go *right now*! Hahahaha!

Joel Dunn

It is really nice driving Hwy 9 and all those connecting roads during the Late night/early morn. I grew up in Santa Cruz and the mountains is where all the fun is... forget the beach, lol! The roads are super awesome to ride during the day on the old cb750k, for some reason its seems like motorcyclist get away with a lot more

sixsigmalarry

iTrader: (8)

Great thread guys! I'm about ready to modify the suspension on my 05 roadster. I am curious if a roadster is a significantly different animal to its non-roadster brother regarding suspension upgrades.

MicVelo

My understanding (so don't quote me on it) is that the suspension varies only in how much spring rate you want to put on it due to how the vehicle will sit at the end of the day. I've seen that the roadster will sit a fraction lower than a coupe on a given set of springs.

But, that it's OK to choose whichever set up you want. If you go on sites that allow you to specify exactly which model you have - in this case, roadster - the parts for a roadster and coupe are identical. I tried this on a couple of sites, Tire Rack and THMotorsports and found no differentiation in components.

This is by no means a definitive answer but it seems to be a good indicator.

Mic

Z33Garage

iTrader: (3)

What poly bushing did you end up using for your stock sway bars? I was about to order the ES ones but I was reading that they were not the correct diameter for the stock sway bars.

RobPhoboS

I went with the Prothane kit
No problems fitting, I popped the rear pair into warm water to soften them up so I could get them over the bar.
I'll also re-use these ones for the Eibach sway bars when they turn up as I think they are the same thickness.

sixsigmalarry

iTrader: (8)

Thanks, Mic. I see what you mean. It does appear that the parts will work for both types of Z's. The only thing I saw in my limited search was that H&R apparently has a different spring for the roadster.
To anyone, if anyone has any roadster suspension recommendations, I'm all ears. If it makes more sense, please feel free to PM me.
Thanks!

Spike100

This thread has posts mentioning Bilstein B6 and B8 shocks. I would like to point out that there is a difference between the Bilstein B6 and B8 shocks. Here is some information pulled from Bilstein’s website.

=======================================
What difference is there between BILSTEIN B6 Sport and BILSTEIN B8 Sprint shock absorbers?

BILSTEIN B6 Sport: For a wider range of applications - with full payload and also at extreme temperatures - for consistent driving performance in town, on country roads and motorways, on short and long distances. The BILSTEIN B6 Sport is a high-performance shock absorber for normal and off-road vehicles.

BILSTEIN B8 Sprint: The BILSTEIN B8 Sprint was designed for lowered vehicles. This shortened high-performance shock absorber is the complement to suspension optimisation. (i.e., It is specifically designed to be used with lowered vehicles with shorter stroke.).
=========================================

The difference may be noticeable in the appearance of a car with lowering springs.

It might be my imagination, but I see cars with lowering springs exhibiting less than the drop specified by the spring manufacturer when combined with Bilstein B6 shocks. That is not the case with Bilstein B8 shocks, which seem to match the manufacturer’s drop measurement with lowering springs.

I hope other readers here can offer comments on this issue. --Spike

RobPhoboS

I've not measured my car, it's the B6 & Tein S springs, it's not something I really cared about, I just wanted better matched springs.

Also as I mentioned previously in the thread (post #29), it depends on the springs you are putting on it:

B6's specifically:
'Down to which lowering level can I go with BILSTEIN B6 sports shock absorbers (not shortened) in conjunction with shorter springs?'
Down to 30mm
That is what is typically offered for new vehicles straight from the factory.
Any lower and a shock absorber with a shortened stroke has to be fitted, so that the spring tension - which ensures the required distance between the car body and the wheel - is maintained, whatever the driving situation.
Otherwise the spring may slip out of its fitting and the vehicle will abruptly go out of control.

B8's specifically:
'Down to which lowering level can the BILSTEIN B8 Sprint shock absorber be fitted?'
Down to 50mm.
The ideal depth for driving dynamics is however between 30mm and 40mm; any lower and the driving performance becomes poorer again, unless a major adjustment of the entire vehicle is carried out.

Spike100

Hi Rob… Thanks for the good information that should help people understand the difference and help when making a choice.

I went with the Bilstein B8 shocks because I was lowering the car (but only 0.6”). I was told that the B6 might almost eliminate the drop. I don’t really know if that’s true or not. Maybe someone here has direct experience with this.

I know you stated that you were not concerned about lowering the car; I wanted to drop the car slightly because I’ve had my Z for 12 years and now would like a different look. The car is noticeably lower with the Tein s-Tech springs and Bilstein B8 shocks.

I’ve ordered new wheels and tires (the wheels won’t be in for a couple of weeks) and will post some pictures as soon as I get them on the car.

RobPhoboS

I'll do a measurement tomorrow when I'm at the alignment place, one of the best I think in the UK, so I'll come back with geo settings as well.

RobPhoboS

Make that - 'I'll do a measurement when I remember '
Sorry I forgot but I'll have a chance on the weekend.

Here are my updated alignment settings:



Ignore the front before as it was me farting around with it last weekend.
They advised me not to go much further than that with the front negative camber, as my rear is the OEM bar. IF I go to -2 at the front they feel it would bring some turn-in oversteer which I'd rather not have on the streets, power over-steer - sure (without going further in the rear)
Also ignore the slight cross-caster difference as it's set for our UK roads having the drainage on the left, not the right like you guys.

Sway bars being fitted by Saturday, a good drive out will follow to see how it all finally feels.
This is just an initial set-up btw


Collected these yesterday...

MicVelo

Spike, it's not your imagination.

I think I may have mentioned this at one point or another that Bilsteins - in general - tend to raise the car by some ~5mm-7mm (or ~0.25") or so. That's not just on our Z's but just about any car I've used them on (mostly Euro) and will DIMINISH the amount of lowering that any given set of aftermarket springs are advertised at.

Case in point/empirical data: The Eibach Pro Kit springs on my '03 are "advertised" to lower the Z33 about 0.6". With the Bilstein HDs (B6), the car "only" dropped down about 0.3". After swapping to the Koni Yellows, I measured the hub to fender height and noted that the car was now sitting at the advertised 0.6" lowered height.

Your B8's are shorter overall and therefore yield the "full lowering" that your springs are supposed to, supporting all the data that you and Rob put forth on the differences between the B6 and B8s.

Mic

MicVelo

I've said it before but I think it's kind of unnatural the warm feeling I get when the UPS or FedEx driver drops off a new box of Z goodies... Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh..... just like Christmas morning. Heh heh.

What's your intended initial set-up on the bars going to be (or "what is" by the time you read this. )

My usual warning to people making changes (and I know y'all already know this but I gotta say it anyways):

Be careful on your initial testing of any mods. Car will behave differently than you are used to. Start at reduced speeds and lower your usual adrenaline fueled inputs until you get used to how the car now steers, grips, loses adhesion - and most importantly, after making sure you buttoned everything up correctly. Then, after re-acclimating to the car and your sway bars didn't fall off , as Emeril LaGasse says, "Kick it up a notch!"

Fun times!

Cheers!

Mic