Better than 4 pot brembo
04-04-2018, 09:59 AM
#1
Better than 4 pot brembo
I am currently running a Brembo OEM brake system front and rear and CRF brake fluid
Brake fade happen said about 5 laps into my road course
after adding a supercharger I'm looking for even better braking
looking to upgrade to even better brakes
I'm wondering if a two piece front rotor would help or should I just go to a 6 pot Front?
what are my options?
Brake fade happen said about 5 laps into my road course
after adding a supercharger I'm looking for even better braking
looking to upgrade to even better brakes
I'm wondering if a two piece front rotor would help or should I just go to a 6 pot Front?
what are my options?
04-04-2018, 01:02 PM
#4
350Z/370Z Tech Moderator
MY350Z.COM
MY350Z.COM
In that respect, a larger swept area and rotor will help to dissipate the heat more efficiently.
It's debatable whether multi-piece rotors can really help with better heat dissipation though. One school of thought is that the aluminum hat works well to shed heat (because aluminum is a better heat conductor) and that is a key point in keeping wheel bearings, steering components from the high heat generated by the brakes.
However, multi-piece rotors work in such a way that the heat in the ring itself is not that well transferred to the hat. Yes, hot does flow to cool/cold but, when you factor in expansion of the ring due to high temperatures, it is essentially pulling away from the hat and therefore doesn't/can't transfer the heat through the most direct form: conduction (or physical contact). Don't get me wrong, heat IS conducted from the ring to the hat but not enough to cool the ring efficiently enough to stave off fade.
So, that said, I'm on the side that says a two/multi-piece rotor won't help ENOUGH to warrant their use to fight your problem. Primary benefit of multi-piece rotors is the reduction in unsprung weight, unrelated to heat and fade.
BUT, increased sizing of the rotor and swept area of the pads WILL work. So my suggestion is to upsize the rotors being mindful of how they are ventilated, change pad compounds to a higher heat capacity based on your track(s) - something not even mentioned before this but a KEY factor in reducing fade and a whole 'nother topic unto itself - and/or sizing up the calipers/pad size.
At the same time, venting the brakes (within class rules if W2W) with ducts/tubing to increase/promote convection of heat.
Last edited by MicVelo; 04-04-2018 at 01:03 PM.
04-04-2018, 02:18 PM
#5
Thanks for that info Mic... never really had a problem with brake fade until I went forced induction
. FYI I am running carbonetics pads which work great with the brembos .. for the first three to four laps..but they still fade at the end of the session
.guess ill do some venting and see how much that helps and then from there
I'm definitely going to look into bigger rotors and calipers..
. FYI I am running carbonetics pads which work great with the brembos .. for the first three to four laps..but they still fade at the end of the session
.guess ill do some venting and see how much that helps and then from there
I'm definitely going to look into bigger rotors and calipers..
Last edited by vegasanthony; 04-04-2018 at 02:20 PM.
04-04-2018, 06:31 PM
#6
From a cooling perspective, the main benefit good 2 piece rotors is better internal vane structure, which if combined with ducting will definitely drop your temps and help the situation. The problem is at what cost...I have gone through enough Centric high carbon blanks to know that they are durable. At $128 shipped per pair vs the $488 plus s&h for the Z1 2-piece...that is a VERY tough sell. Basically 4 times the cost and you are still arent adding any mass to the rotors, just facilitating additional cooling (not sure if the rotors are thicker but doubt it).
Another way to ask your question is, can you get the existing setup to handle your heat requirements cheaper than upgrading the fronts to BBK?
For you since you are FI I think the OEM Brembos will end up marginal at best even after ducts and 2 piece rotors (from a thermal perspective only, in terms of mu and feel they are just fine). Always do ducting first since its the cheapest, but I would probably be looking into upgrading the fronts to BBK. Food for thought, the Rooducts 350z blowers are designed to cool the calipers not the rotors, which is where the rubber meets the road from a cooling perspective.
Which pad compound are you running? I assume you mean SRF fluid...Have you removed/trimmed back the heat/dust shield? Most importantly, have you had others in the car with you to evaluate your braking?
And remember if you are cooking your fluid this regularly you need to up your bleed interval significantly, otherwise the problem will begin to compound itself.
Another way to ask your question is, can you get the existing setup to handle your heat requirements cheaper than upgrading the fronts to BBK?
For you since you are FI I think the OEM Brembos will end up marginal at best even after ducts and 2 piece rotors (from a thermal perspective only, in terms of mu and feel they are just fine). Always do ducting first since its the cheapest, but I would probably be looking into upgrading the fronts to BBK. Food for thought, the Rooducts 350z blowers are designed to cool the calipers not the rotors, which is where the rubber meets the road from a cooling perspective.
Which pad compound are you running? I assume you mean SRF fluid...Have you removed/trimmed back the heat/dust shield? Most importantly, have you had others in the car with you to evaluate your braking?
And remember if you are cooking your fluid this regularly you need to up your bleed interval significantly, otherwise the problem will begin to compound itself.
Trending Topics
04-06-2018, 07:57 AM
#8
It's debatable whether multi-piece rotors can really help with better heat dissipation though. One school of thought is that the aluminum hat works well to shed heat (because aluminum is a better heat conductor) and that is a key point in keeping wheel bearings, steering components from the high heat generated by the brakes.
However, multi-piece rotors work in such a way that the heat in the ring itself is not that well transferred to the hat. Yes, hot does flow to cool/cold but, when you factor in expansion of the ring due to high temperatures, it is essentially pulling away from the hat and therefore doesn't/can't transfer the heat through the most direct form: conduction (or physical contact). Don't get me wrong, heat IS conducted from the ring to the hat but not enough to cool the ring efficiently enough to stave off fade.
However, multi-piece rotors work in such a way that the heat in the ring itself is not that well transferred to the hat. Yes, hot does flow to cool/cold but, when you factor in expansion of the ring due to high temperatures, it is essentially pulling away from the hat and therefore doesn't/can't transfer the heat through the most direct form: conduction (or physical contact). Don't get me wrong, heat IS conducted from the ring to the hat but not enough to cool the ring efficiently enough to stave off fade.
In that respect, you might try running Supra TT rotors with your stock Brembos. They're dimensionally close enough to fit, and are one of the few factory options with curved vanes. I ran them on my 400HP MR2, coupled with 911C4 calipers. The new owner tracks the car regularly, and has not had to change pads or rotors in 5 years, using StopTech Sport (street) pads. I'm running the same pads with 911TT calipers and Camaro rotors (see next response) on my Z, expecting similar results.
And if that's your goal and you happen to be running 370Z rotors, you can shed 6lbs per front wheel by switching to the dimensionally similar Camaro SS rotors. There's about 10 min of prep work required to make them fit.
The following users liked this post:
MicVelo (04-06-2018)
04-06-2018, 10:40 AM
#9
350Z/370Z Tech Moderator
MY350Z.COM
MY350Z.COM
Good stuff Kilo!
I did the layman/color commentary, you provided the tech. You ready for us to comment on F1 TV coverage? Hahahahaha.
Leigh Diffey and Steve Matchett....
I did the layman/color commentary, you provided the tech. You ready for us to comment on F1 TV coverage? Hahahahaha.
Leigh Diffey and Steve Matchett....
04-06-2018, 09:26 PM
#10
Super Moderator
MY350Z.COM
MY350Z.COM
iTrader: (8)
What pads are you on ?
You doing speedventures in a couple weeks ?
You doing speedventures in a couple weeks ?
04-30-2018, 11:05 AM
#12
Registered User
As terrasmak asked - what pads are you running? The OE Brembo 4p kit should be able to handle the heat (though with FI you'll be pushing it), but you'll need dedicated high-temp track pads to fully utilize the benefit. If you swap to high temp pads and fluid and add some brake cooling ducts, that should extend your track time significantly.
04-30-2018, 12:05 PM
#13
Yea I’m kind of surprised too no one asked the compound of the pads. I know you mentioned what brand but are you on a full track compound?
Also what fluid? I’m sure if you’re over cooking your pads especially if they are track your fluid is getting warm as well.
I also see you’re in Vegas. Is the temp warm as well? Cause that won’t help any either.
Also what fluid? I’m sure if you’re over cooking your pads especially if they are track your fluid is getting warm as well.
I also see you’re in Vegas. Is the temp warm as well? Cause that won’t help any either.
Last edited by CK_32; 04-30-2018 at 12:09 PM.
04-30-2018, 08:22 PM
#14
As terrasmak asked - what pads are you running? The OE Brembo 4p kit should be able to handle the heat (though with FI you'll be pushing it), but you'll need dedicated high-temp track pads to fully utilize the benefit. If you swap to high temp pads and fluid and add some brake cooling ducts, that should extend your track time significantly.
Going wayyyyy back on this one:
Nano,
You keep harping on the fact that the 350Z's in GAC are using the factory Brembo's...that's not the case. The Unitech Z's were using the factory Brembos with stock rotors originally. They were running out of heat capacity quite often. They then switched to our AeroRotors with the factory calipers (per the rules). They gained heat capacity due to improved air flow, and actually won their first race on our setup. Even with that setup however, they were still running out of heat capacity at tracks like Laguna Seca.
A couple of months ago there was a rules change, and Unitech was allowed to switch to our off-the-shelf 332mmx32mm full BBK...the exact same one that we sell to customers. The factory rotors are 324x30mm, so even our smaller kit for the Z has significantly greater heat capacity. The increase in both diameter and width makes quite a large difference, and that doesn't even take into account the superior airflow of the internal vane structure. These cars are now able to run multiple races on one set of pads, whereas before, they were running out of pad in less than one race.
So, the lowly Brembo oem brakes have indeed been ditched for our standard 332mm setup, which has proven itself superior with plenty of data given directly to StopTech from Unitech Racing. Unitech won it's second race this year with our full BBK, and they are the only 350Z team to ever win.
You may want to get your facts straight before you start arguing so vehemently.
The bottom line is this...the factory Brembo's are a very nice brake system. They do have their limitations however. In particular, the rotor size on the front is a bit small for people who are really going to drive the car hard on the racetrack with race tires. Some people WILL exceed the heat capacity of this system. When you throw a bigger rotor into the mix, it makes a significant difference. Our 332x32mm and 355x32mm systems are a great upgrade for those who have reached the capacity of the factory Brembo system. The same is true on the Mitsu. Evo and Subaru WRS STi. We have lots of those customers who pump their cars up a bit for track duty, and then exceed the heat capacity of the stock Brembos and come to us for an upgrade. Again, the Brembo system is a nice factory system, and it's superior to what many other sportscars have in terms of brakes. It does have limitations that can be reached by many people though. At that point, our kits are a logical upgrade.
Everyone else, thanks for the support. I'm glad you guys appreciate what we've done, and continue to do to support the 350Z platform and community.
You keep harping on the fact that the 350Z's in GAC are using the factory Brembo's...that's not the case. The Unitech Z's were using the factory Brembos with stock rotors originally. They were running out of heat capacity quite often. They then switched to our AeroRotors with the factory calipers (per the rules). They gained heat capacity due to improved air flow, and actually won their first race on our setup. Even with that setup however, they were still running out of heat capacity at tracks like Laguna Seca.
A couple of months ago there was a rules change, and Unitech was allowed to switch to our off-the-shelf 332mmx32mm full BBK...the exact same one that we sell to customers. The factory rotors are 324x30mm, so even our smaller kit for the Z has significantly greater heat capacity. The increase in both diameter and width makes quite a large difference, and that doesn't even take into account the superior airflow of the internal vane structure. These cars are now able to run multiple races on one set of pads, whereas before, they were running out of pad in less than one race.
So, the lowly Brembo oem brakes have indeed been ditched for our standard 332mm setup, which has proven itself superior with plenty of data given directly to StopTech from Unitech Racing. Unitech won it's second race this year with our full BBK, and they are the only 350Z team to ever win.
You may want to get your facts straight before you start arguing so vehemently.
The bottom line is this...the factory Brembo's are a very nice brake system. They do have their limitations however. In particular, the rotor size on the front is a bit small for people who are really going to drive the car hard on the racetrack with race tires. Some people WILL exceed the heat capacity of this system. When you throw a bigger rotor into the mix, it makes a significant difference. Our 332x32mm and 355x32mm systems are a great upgrade for those who have reached the capacity of the factory Brembo system. The same is true on the Mitsu. Evo and Subaru WRS STi. We have lots of those customers who pump their cars up a bit for track duty, and then exceed the heat capacity of the stock Brembos and come to us for an upgrade. Again, the Brembo system is a nice factory system, and it's superior to what many other sportscars have in terms of brakes. It does have limitations that can be reached by many people though. At that point, our kits are a logical upgrade.
Everyone else, thanks for the support. I'm glad you guys appreciate what we've done, and continue to do to support the 350Z platform and community.
04-30-2018, 11:01 PM
#15
That’s nice and all. But of course they are going to only positively speak of THEIR brakes when being compared to their counterpart in the market.
I’d like to see outside reviews of that post/brakes/results of someone NOT invested in the product being reviewed. It’s always the best/right product when it’s your product.
Could very well be true. But that literally looks like any and every company product rep email I’ve ever received when trying to sell and advocate a product.
I’d like to see outside reviews of that post/brakes/results of someone NOT invested in the product being reviewed. It’s always the best/right product when it’s your product.
Could very well be true. But that literally looks like any and every company product rep email I’ve ever received when trying to sell and advocate a product.
Last edited by CK_32; 04-30-2018 at 11:02 PM.
05-02-2018, 06:12 AM
#17
Yea I’m kind of surprised too no one asked the compound of the pads. I know you mentioned what brand but are you on a full track compound?
Also what fluid? I’m sure if you’re over cooking your pads especially if they are track your fluid is getting warm as well.
I also see you’re in Vegas. Is the temp warm as well? Cause that won’t help any either.
Also what fluid? I’m sure if you’re over cooking your pads especially if they are track your fluid is getting warm as well.
I also see you’re in Vegas. Is the temp warm as well? Cause that won’t help any either.
Carbonetics track pads..SRF fluid
05-02-2018, 07:35 AM
#18
Registered User
You do still have a couple options before going with a full BBK. Two piece rotors will lower temps due to the vane geometry, which acts like an impeller to pump more air. A much cheaper (if you're willing to DIY) and arguably more effective solution will be brake ducting. Stainless lines and/or titanium head shields between the pads and pistons will also reduce heat transfer into the fluid, but it sounds like you're losing brake torque from the pads before you're boiling the fluid.
Last edited by SpartaEvolution; 05-02-2018 at 07:37 AM.
05-02-2018, 11:50 AM
#19
Super Moderator
MY350Z.COM
MY350Z.COM
iTrader: (8)
