Hi all,

I am about 85% satisfied with how my Z brakes right now, but I would like a slightly better "feel" during braking. I am doing lots & lots of stop & go driving (SoCal), so I have no real need for Stoptechs or Brembo's etc. I do go on a group run probably every other month, so performance under pressure is still a concern.

I am looking at the following upgrade that I think will give me a better feel and a little better braking:

1. Rotora slotted brakes (front only)
2. Upgrade lines (stillen vs. stoptech)
3. Upgrade pads (???)

I can get the Rotora's upfront discs for a little over $200. It seems like folks round here are 50/50 on the Stoptech lines vs. Stillen lines.

Also, I need a recomendation for upgrading the pads. I want something that is DAILY drivable, not track pads. Best bang for my buck especially considering I don't want squeaking or absurd amounts of brake dust. All said and done I figure:
$200 rotoras + $200 lines + $50->100 pads = $500 upgrade + install (which I can't do by myself, no garage anywhere near me)...

Does this sound like a plan? What pads should I go with? Which lines are better? Is the rotora slotted disc even worth it?

Thanks!

edit:

Oh yeah, forgot to mention its the stock non-track brakes. And I know one of the best ways to improve feel is tires, which are coming soon, this is looking beyond tires. Thx.

 

I'd skip the rotors... they won't make any difference in your pedal feel. Spend that money on better pads and two bottles of Motul 600 brake fluid.

I'm a big fan of Stoptech stuff, so I say get their lines (even though I use Goodridge lines... Stoptech didn't have theirs out when I bought SS lines).

Good pads: Mintex Red Box or Mintex C-Tech (not sure if they have a Z fitment... but they are good); Carbotech Bobcat; Porterfield R4-S; some of the Hawks, but I've never used them so I don't know the names... for my money, I'd go Carbotech Bobcat.

To eliminate squeal on any pad, apply a thin layer of Wurth DBQ 2200 to the back of the pads before installing them. You should be able to get it at just about any auto parts store.

Hope that helps.

PeteH

 

add $600 more and get a 13 inch 4 piston front willwood brakes from www.precisionbrakes.com and everyone will love to hear about them

 

I agree with Audito350Z. Go for those rotors once your stock ones go. I think the Stoptech lines are Goodridge aren't they?
Installation is pretty easy too if you can find a place with a couple feet free around your car. Bleeding is a pain since really need 2 people and would take a real long time one wheel at a time...

 

So you guys don't think that the upgraded front rotors will make enough of a difference? I thought that the deal with slotted discs was that they offer better resistance to fade during hard driving (ie when I'm on one of our group canyon runs). I have no problem saving that step for now just to save some cash, but would it be worth it to just get it done with while all the other parts are being worked on?

Also, is Carbotech the best advice for pads? Any other suggestions?

 

I have a package to upgrade the stock brakes i offer to people...


Stop Tech Rotors
Stop Tech Stainless Lines
NISMO Brake Pads

Front and Rear... or any combination of...

www.performancenissanparts.com

 

Slotting has NOTHING to do with resistance to fade. The purpose of slotting (or cross-drilling) is to give you some additional bite on application of the brakes.

Someone suggested you use Motul 600 brake fluid. This is overkill for a car that is not driven on the track. Any good quality DOT 4, as long as it is fresh, will meet your requirements. Even $4/quart Valvoline SynPower DOT 4 fluid will work fine. As long as you're not boiling your brake fluid now, there's no reason to use $30/liter brake fluid,

 

StopTech lines are NOT made by Goodridge. They are made in Torrance, California by StopTech. Unlike Goodridge, the StopTech lines have a clear plastic molded over the outside to protect the car from the "hacksaw effect" that a misrouted stainless line can have, plus to protect the line from the environment. Like Goodridge, the StopTech lines are made to DOT specifications and have recently passed TÜV certification for sale in Germany. Bleeding is not that hard. Here's a page I wrote up that describes how to do a quality bleed: http://www.zeckhausen.com/bleeding_brakes.htm

 

I went all out on ugrading the brakes, but I found that it was my rears not my fronts that seemed to be weakpoint when I did some runs at a circuit. I think others have seen this also..

might want to consider removing the dust shields, I would assume this could aid. 5ZIGEN is supposed to be coming out with a vent but its been under developement for a while

here is the link scroll down
http://www.5zigen.co.jp/product/pror...eup/index.html

 

The comments above are really excellent, a quality thread with lots of helpful insights.

These comments are additive, but hopefully of some help.

Rotors. You only need bigger rotors if you are pushing the existing ones past their capacity to absorb heat from heavy braking. It is virtually unheard of in street driving, even spirited driving, to exceed the stock rotor heat absorption capacity. So, unless you are tracking the car, save your money on that element. They do not help you stop faster. They do help you handle massive heat build up from repetitive and aggressive braking demands in a racing or hot lap environment on a track, levels of demand almost impossible to experience on streets due to extreme speed changes in a short period of time (for example, a closed track circuit of three miles, with more than 20 turns and average speeds of between 85 and 90mph....yet with hairpins at 40mph or less and straights of 140mph......)

Pads. Definitely consider upgraded pads. Do lots of reading and research to make an informed decision. But basically, do not go to a "race" bad. A "high performance street" pad will do nicely on the road, and serve you more than adequately for the occasional track day. IF you are willing to swap back and forth, then a separate set of race pads for track days is fine.

Brake lines. A set of braided stainless is a good idea. Goodridge is an excellent brand. StopTechs and Stillens too.

Fluid. I like the Motul. The 600 is what I run, but 500 would probably be more than adequate. The Castrol race fluid is over the top and not necessary.

Slotted rotors/drilled rotors. The drilling was done initially to help scrape the dust away (not to cool) and prevent the bonding of the dust as "cementite" to the rotors, with the resulting loss of braking adhesion due to uneven surface. But drilling weakens the structure of the rotor, which is cast iron composite (not steel), which is not desireable, and also reduces mass available for heat absorption, also not desireable. It looks mean, but it no longer really serves a purpose. Superior dust elimination and heat absorption is achieved with the slotted rotor. "Show" cars drill, and "go" cars slot.

Rear brake kits. Hmmmm. This is a toughie. At least 70% of your braking influence is going to be at the front of the car. IF you do upgrade, as many do, there is a lot to be said for just doing the fronts and letting it go at that. Definitely the best bang for the buck. Does doing the rears make a difference. Yes. But at the outer end of the performance spectrum. Almost never on the street. A balanced rear set will help sit the rear end down and makes some marginal improvement. But the zone in which it makes a difference to the driver and car is out there a ways, and at the track....so for almost all drivers it really does not make sense to spend your money there if you have other places to apply it, especially in suspension, tires, drivetrain etc. The prioritization should be farther down the line.

Just one view.
Good luck.

 

The only thing about the rears on the Z is that they wear extremely fast.

Mine were gone after two days @ Laguna, while my fronts were barely worn (maybe 30% wear, 70% remaining).

However, given that pads are pretty easy to replace yourself, it probably does not make sense to change the rears for the wear reason alone. I would therefore agree that it would make sense to leave the rears alone, and go for SST brake lines and new, standard fluid first. See what that does. The SST lines should make the brakes feel more firm, and like others have said, if you are not boiling fluid now (which you won't do on the street) then it probably does not make sense to change to a very high quality fluid at this time.

-D'oh!

 

Not necessarily true - we offer Goodridge brake lines that are coated as well, and its a step up from the G Stop kits offered by the US vendors.

I totally agree with Dave on teh fluid - as long as its fresh and a good name brand, you'll be fine..people street way too much over that kind of stuff.

My recommendation - lines and pads. I personally love the HPS pads for a street/autocross car.

I would nix the rotors altogether, unless you want the look or do not feel like resurfacing your stock ones when the new pads go in.

Adam

 

That's a good point. They key is to ask your vendor. After a meeting with Brembo on the 3rd, they agreed to my request to have the Goodridge lines that come with Brembo big brake kits plastic coated.

 

Eagle 1, and other posters, thanks for the quality information. I guess I was misinformed on the benefits of slotted rotors. I haven't looked at drilled rotors at all because I pretty much knew those were for track only, but I guess I'd been under the impression that slotted rotors made a greater difference. DZeckhausen, are you serious that slotting will not help resist fading? I thought the purpose of slotting was to improve airflow thereby cooling the rotor to managable levels, as well as improving dusting. If it means additional bite that's fine too.

Right now I've gotten a quote from Jason @ performance on doing:

-Nismo f & r pads
-Stoptech f & r lines
(optional) -stoptech slotted rotors

I am hesitant to purchase the Nismo pads simply because I know many companies out there deal exclusively with pads. I am waiting for a response from carbotech about availability of f & r street pads. HPS and Mintex seem to be the other two brands named regularly.

Thanks for the valuable insight. There is so much emphasis on going faster with this car that it seems like braking is oftentimes ignored. One follow up question, would it be worthwhile to save my $$$ and perhaps look at buying a set of used Track Brembo's? What would a used set run compared to upgrading pads & lines, and would it be a more worthwhile upgrade?

Thanks again.

 

DCzoner:
I went to the 14.1" StopTechs all around with slotted rotors, stainless lines, Motul 600RBF and Axxis Ultimate pads. There is absolutely no question, having run the car before and after this mod, that the bigger brake kit works better on the track. No fade, no mushies, etc. Bled them anyway after the event and they were good. Then swapped off the race rubber and put the Stones back on.

On the street, the only real difference that is noticeable is the stiffer pedal and a bit quicker bite, but that is all adjusted by the driver in his head the way you brake. I don't think that the braking is appreciably quicker for street use than the brembos were. Maybe if we were to go out and do some comparative testing we would discover it was a couple of feet...but it certainly is not on the order of a couple of car lengths.

Drilled is not for track. Drilled looks cool, but they can crack under hard use. Slotted is stronger. They both are for improved dust removal from the rotor surface. To the extent that drilled and slotted helps to remove dust and thus prevent loss of efficiency from build up....yes they do help resist fading. But more of the fading is due to the problem with cooking your fluid and not being able to have the rotor handle the heat buildup, than it is to cementite, assuming you started with clean rotors.

To get max returns, for min monies, pads and lines as discussed above. And, when dealing with your tires, remember that they are a critical component to your stopping, and bigger feet can help with a larger contact patch and the right compound.

If you do go with a larger brake kit, think seriously about just doing the fronts.

If on a budget, and working to make the car perform, think about things like stiffer sways, adjustable coilover shocks, and drivetrain mods like a lighter flywheel and maybe the lsd, before you get around to thinking about a rear brake kit. Just my thought. BUT, if you are going to track it, and seriously, the name of the game is handling, and that means braking and suspension mods. Little Miatas kick butt on some of the Vettes and Vipers, because of their suspensions, braking and power to weight situation. In that case...you Z has lots of power already. Make it stop and hold the road better for best track results as a car, and take lessons. Good skills in mediocre iron whip mediocre skills in good iron.

Have fun.

 

Drilled rotors are NOT appropriate for the track! If you are going to track your car, you should stick with plain or slotted rotors. Drilled rotors, especially non-floating rotors, will crack sooner than plain or slotted under race conditions.
Slotting wil not help cool your rotors. Slotting was originally introduced to help provide a place for pad outgassing to go. (In that sense, it used to have a function at reducing "green" fade, which was caused by the outgassing of new pads during initial use.) It also keeps your pads clean of any glaze buildup. But its primary benefit is the same as drilled, and that's to provide increased bite.

One of the reasons so many people think that slotting is helpful at cooling rotors is that people often use the terms "slotting" and "venting" interchangably. They are two different things. Slotting is the cutting of grooves into the outer friction surfaces. Venting is the use of two friction surfaces with an air gap in between them and radial (sometimes directionally curved) internal vanes to pump air through them.

Slotted and drilled rotors do not reduce brake dust. In fact, they do just the opposite.

Directional rotors with internal vanes, however, can reduce the dust accumulation in your wheels by pumping more air through and displacing the dust.

 

I would add that getting a brake duct kit on the front would greatly help at keeping everything cool on the front end. I will be putting the N tech kit on this weekend and will have some install pics up later. My brake progression on my Performance model was: Replaced fluid w/ motul, stoptech lines, and carbotech XP9s. This was acceptable, but I was still using most of the brake zone to stop and I was still warping front backing plates and cracking rotors. So I got the 14" stoptech kit (thanks performance) and after 2 events with the brake kit on, it is the best single performance mod I have done to date. To help things along I will install the duct kit as well. Before the brake kit, I went through $1000 in brake pads alone, 2 sets of front rotors and 1 set of rear rotors in 7 track events. As a note if anyone needs OEM rotors, go to carbotech. Nissan wanted $120+ per, I got them from carbotech for less than half...

 

can you post a link to the duct kit.. really interested.. a step by step install pics would be awesome if you can

 

Once again I have to respectfully disagree with Dave on this one too. I have never had a problem at all using a drilled rotor, so long as they were rotors with the holes cast into them. Personally, I have used slotted and drilled totally interchangeably on our race cars and on my street cars, and have not once run into an issue. I could see how an imporperly drilled rotor could introduce problems, but no more so than a cheap replacement rotor, or cheaoly done slotted rotors.

Agreed that if you are looking to maximize braking ability at the track, a proper ducting system should be first on your list, as its inpexpensive to do nicely, and yields huge results.

Adam

 

Alright, well I got a good quote from Matt @ Carbotech for their Bobcat line - $79 front pads & $99 rears. So $180 vs $220 for the Nismo pads. I think I'm going to go with carbotech (not to mention no tax )

If anyone knows a reason why these pads should not satisfy this man, speak now or forever hold your peace.

I also have a quote for $300 for the labor of f&r pad replacement, f&r line install, and turning the rotors. Is that a fair price (for socal)?