Moroccan_Mole

iTrader: (5)

im assuming you're going to the PCA events at TWS? that is not autocross. that is a hpde or hot lapping day or whatever you want to call it.

autocross is dodging cones in a parking lot.

even though the axxis ultimate pads are rated upto 1k degrees, they are street pads and should not be used during hpdes. you should really use something like the porterfield r4 that is designed for track use

PhoenixINX

Even though you sold your Z...

It's good to see the A**hole in you still exists.

Lighten up.

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

I have definitely never seen anything quite like this before. This is the first dramatic color shift I've ever seen under the conditions you've described. We test our paint in an oven...and we've done the same with competitors' products. There is no magic paint that won't change color over time when exposed to extreme heat...unfortunately, it's just not possible at this time. I'm sure plenty of members on this board that track their factory brembos have seen some serious color shifts...I actually have one on my desk that looks more chocolate in color than gold.

It is not abnormal to see effects similar to what Blue Liquid describes though. It is quite common for the logo to change a creamy color after track use/abuse...mine did that...nothing severe though.

As for the pads, you are definitely operating on the fringe of what those pads were designed for. I would recommend a Pagid Orange pad for that situation. You are running the risk of overheating the pads and getting an uneven pad deposit...which in turn causes a high spot and vibration. It says right on every Axxis pad set we sell with our kits..."Not for Track Use" on a neon pink label. We typically say that they are ok for autoX, but if you are doing 20 minute sessions with repeated stops from 100+mph, that is clearly more "track-like" in nature than a typical autoX (which is a 1 minute run with max speeds of 60-70mph, and very few serious braking zones).

Also, I have a question about the picture you posted though...why is your jack the same color as the calipers after they've changed colors? It looks like it was color matched.

I have my engineers investigating this situation as I type this. We'll get to the bottom of it.

stx

I was using Nismo pads with the stock calipers when I would run our AutoX events and they held up alright. I assumed these Axxis pads would hold up also since they have a higher heat range than the Nismo (The stock brakes worked for our AutoX's but didn't make our HPDE's, which is why I bought the brake kit).

I have learned the hard way about overheating your brake pads and leaving uneven pad deposits. LOL

The jack is almost the same color because its the gold color racing jack from Harbor Freight tools.

Racing Jack

I thought the heat might have been caused by my rims. If you notice in the pic they are still silverish on the inside edge. I thought maybe the rims were preventing the heat from escaping.

I appreciate all your help in this matter.

Our AutoX is held near South Padre Island. People that come from the SCCA AutoX to our's say it is more like a HPDE instead of an AutoX. Our HPDE's range from 1.6 to 2.1 miles and speeds go to 130+ in my Z. Some of the corners are high speed at 80+ mph which make it alot of fun

Blue Liquid

Yeah, the black calipers change too. The yellow caliper in J RITT's avatar was originally a black caliper taken off a friend's car after an HPDE. So no matter what, you'll have some color change.

2003z

iTrader: (7)

I've seen a set of reds that have turned solid black.

orhanz33

are the color changes consistent? i was planning on getting black stoptechs someday, but i'd be pretty pissed if they turned yellow, especially since my car is red

does this sound accurate as far as the calipers changing colors:
black-> yellow
red-> black
silver-> gold

350z4steve

iTrader: (1)

yikes that cant be good....is this a full stoptech kit or are you using the rear stock brake calipers as well? How many track days were they good for before changing color?

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

Blue liquid was kidding...hence the wink! Please reread my last post...complete color shifts are not typical.

The fade is a result of pad selection, nothing more. Pad choice is everything when it comes to fade resistance.

These pads should have similar characteristics overall...I think Nismo uses Hawk HPS. As I said, I think you would be very happy with a Pagid orange for these events.

No problem. As I said, we'll get to the bottom of this one.

rodH

iTrader: (2)

J ritt, you may want to change your avitar, They (Speed channeL) keeps talking about how the Turner BMWs are suffering from brake fade and losing because of it. Interesting.

pimp1911

Posing this question to everybody. What pad is good for track vs autox? And brake fluid too.

GaryM05

They did mention a bit about that at this past weekend's race, but after Auberlen (a guy who knows what he's talking about when it comes to racing) won at Sebring earlier in the year, he mentioned that the Stoptechs were the best brakes he had ever used (and it didn't sound like a typical post-race sponsorship mention either.)

droideka

The black calipers oxidize and become cloudy with the logo going to a cream color.

stx

I don't think color change is common. I think my only changed colors because for some odd reason they got unusually hot. I even boiled the ATE Super Blue brake fluid, which I have never been able to do.



As for brake fluid, I would say ATE Super Blue. Great fluid for the price.

droideka

*****, please. You are the original my350z.com a**hole. I'm just a hack compared to your mAd sKiLLz.

John

iTrader: (17)

Yep. First the red Brembo label turns coppery, then black. Eventually the gold finish turns into a more coppery color, and eventually to a chocolately color. Mine is still in the coppery stage, but after I run a few more events, they should glisten like Hershey chocolate syrup...

Agreed, although though I know nothing of Pagid pads, nor do I know anybody who uses them. I think a decent intermediate pad (that's affordable) would the CarboTech PantherPlus / XP9. If you want a full road-race pad, then I endorse the Cobalt Friction GT-R spec.VR pads. If you want to fork out more cash, try the PFC 01 or 97 compound. A lot of people like Hawks, but my experience with them is that they tear up rotors.

As for fluid, I too have boiled ATE SuperBlue. Great intermediate fluid, but if you're running in events with a 90-100+ degree ambient temperature, your brakes aren't going to perform as well. Might want to try Motul RBF600.

jmark

iTrader: (1)

I believe Bill A.'s BMW is carrying 150 lbs. of rewards weight. Probably effecting his braking a bit....

droideka

Too many variables to list, but here's a few questions to ask yourself.

How long is the track you intend to frequent? How long are the straights? Long straights after heavy braking zones afford your brakes the opportunity to cool before the next braking zone. Short tracks with lots of turns (read: braking zones) will heat the brakes up and keep them hot. The downside of long straights is that you will pick up a lot of speed and will be braking very hard into turns off of a straight depending on severity of said turns.

Are you a late braker who will trail brake up to the apex of turns, or will you brake early with even pedal application throughout the braking zone? While both methods will heat up brakes at almost equal levels, it's been my experience that very late braking stresses pads much more so and can lead to deposition rearing it's ugly head.

For an auto-x course with light braking that won't see you leaving second gear, I'd say you could get away Hawk HP+, but I'm not a cone dodger so don't take my word for it. For the track I frequent, I eventually moved up to Hawk HT-10 full race pads that could handle the stress of late braking and short straights.

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

RodH,
I watched that race this weekend, and to say we were displeased with what the announcers said is the understatement of the year. Here's what happened: We were supposed to run our new ST-22 rear caliper setup on the Turner cars...but they never went on the car. They were having suspension issues, and focused their efforts on the suspension in the limited time they had to prep at the track. They were running stock rear brake setups. During the race, they punctured one of their rear lines (which wasn't one of ours), and they were losing all fluid. Auberlen ran the latter stages of the race without any rear brakes essentially. The fact that he was able to hang in there like he did at the front of the pack is a testament to what are front setups are capable of.
Also, I don't know how one comment by the announcers that he was having some sort of brake problem turns into, "keeps talking about how the Turner BMWs are suffering from brake fade and losing because of it." As GaryM05 said, he won the first 2 races of the year and tells everyone that they are the best brakes he's ever had. How in the world can you make that leap?
You also have to realize that the announcers are working with incomplete information. They have someone in the pits that gets an idea of what the problem is, and then they speculate. Things like this happen all of the time in racing...that's why it's fun to watch. You never know all of the details until after it's all done and packed up. It's just drama, and you have to take it for what it's worth.
We stand behind Bill 100%. He is one of the top sportscar racers in the country, and a factory BMW driver. He's been destroying the competition since he was a little kid racing Karts. He stands behind our product completely, and we stand behind him...no way would I change my avatar. He's going to win the series with our brakes.

No doubt...absolutely has a big impact on tires, handling, and brakes (makes me miss my Integra Type R for track duty). I'm pretty sure he'll be carrying 170lbs extra for the next race...like carrying a passenger! He didn't have that much weight last year until round 6 or 7 I think.

Thanks for backing me up on that one. As I said, I've seen quite a few chocolate Brembo's in my day. There's no perfect paint solution at this time...it happens to all of the top manufacturers' products. The main difference is, you won't see Brembo or others on here asking questions and trying to get to the root of the issue.

As Droid said, tons of factors involved here...type of track, length of straights, distance and speeds reached between braking zones, number of braking zones, air temp, air flow to brakes...what I will say is that there is no good pad to handle all situations. Pad choice is all tradeoffs. I've posted this before:

Pad Choice
Many of our customers ask us, "Which brake pads are best for my vehicle?" Unfortunately, there is no single clear-cut answer. Different driving conditions require different types of friction, as there is no single pad that works optimally under all conditions. There will always be a compromise in at least one area of operation. You need to ask yourself which of the following issues are most important to your particular driving style.

1. COLD STOPPING PERFORMANCE. How well does the pad grip on the first stop when the system is at ambient temperature?
2. HOT STOPPING PERFORMANCE. How does the pad react at higher temperatures, such as on a road course? Rotor and pad temperatures typically exceed 1000 F on road course
3. PAD LIFE. How long will the pads last in a given driving environment?
4. ROTOR LIFE. How aggressive is the pad on the rotor, and will it groove the surface?
5. NOISE. Does the pad squeal? High performance pads will always have some noise.
6. DUST. How much dust does the pad generate, and how easy is it to clean?
7. COST. Is the pad affordable compared to how it performs?

StopTech has addressed all of the above issues and has selected various pads that offer a good compromise depending on the application. For our Stage I and II, StopTech's default pad of choice is the Axxis Ultimate. The Ultimate features Kevlar and ceramic construction, and is a non-asbestos, low metal content pad. The Ultimate offers the best price/performance ratio available on the street-performance market, and is also the standard pad that ships with our big brake kits. The Ultimate is an excellent choice for street, autoX, drag, and drift use on the front and rear of most vehicles. However, exceeding the 932 F MOT (Maximum Operating Temp.) with the Ultimate (or any street pad) can cause uneven pad deposition, which is often misinterpreted as a warped rotor. Medium dust, low noise, and excellent rotor and pad life characterize the Ultimate. For vehicles that do not have the Axxis Ultimate as an option, StopTech substitutes the Hawk HPS or the Centric Posiquiet. The HPS does not have quite the initial bite of the Axxis Ultimate, but it is a comparable low dust, low noise, low rotor wear, high performance street pad. HPS has an MOT of 825 F. Posiquiet is the ideal choice for light trucks.

Street Pads vs. Race Pads
If you must run one pad on both the street and road course, you will have to compromise performance in one way or another on all of the variables in the list above. Road course and street use place different demands on the friction material of any brake system, and you should choose accordingly. A pad that is designated as a "street pad" is typically composed of materials designed to work cold, and inherent in this pad composition is a limited temperature range. Due to the less aggressive composition, a street pad does not wear a rotor as quickly, makes less noise, and tends to cost less than a race pad. On the other hand, a "race" or "track" pad may never reach its optimal temperature range during street use, which may compromise cold stopping distances. The typically high metal content in a race pad wears rotors more quickly, generates noise and dust, and usually costs more than a street pad. Therefore, StopTech recommends swapping street pads in favor of race pads before each road course event. The system will need to be bed-in after a race pad is swapped in, and again when the street pads are re-installed. Please check our website at www.StopTech.com for bedding instructions, availability, and pricing on various street and race pad compounds for your vehicle. Click here for more details, pricing, and availability of the various race compound pads for your vehicle

High Performance Brake Fluid
While most enthusiasts frequently change their engine oil, they often neglect their brake fluid. When brake fluid is fresh it is virtually incompressible, and the system works as well as its mechanical and hydraulic design allows. When overheated however, brake fluid can (and will) boil in the caliper. Boiling produces compressible gas bubbles, which result in a "soft" brake pedal with long travel. In extreme cases, overheated brake fluid necessitates "pumping the brake pedal" in order to get any pedal at all. Another issue with brake fluid is that it is hygroscopic, which means that it absorbs water over time. As water is absorbed into the system, the temperature at which the fluid will boil lowers dramatically. Therefore, it is important to maintain a fresh supply of brake fluid in the system, particularly under heavy use where the potential to boil the fluid exists. Depending on the boiling point, The Department Of Transportation assigns a DOT rating to each fluid. Generally speaking, to achieve a certain DOT number, the fluid must possess a minimum boiling point. Unless otherwise specified by the original equipment manufacturer, StopTech only recommends and sells DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 fluids for high performance applications. The Motul RBF 600 fluid included in all StopTech Stage kits is a top of the line DOT 4 fluid with superior performance at a reasonable price. For a more in-depth analysis of brake fluid, please read Brake Fluid 1A by Carroll Smith and James Walker, Jr. of scR motorsports (http://www.teamscR.com).


Hope that clears some things up for you...

rodH

iTrader: (2)

J RItt, I knew there had to be a logical explination, cause I know the brakes aren't junk, just interesting that they mentioned it. I actually root for the Acura cars (my family owns an Acura dealer and 2 Honda dealers, so I always root for those cars, unless there is a 350Z in the mix, which there isn't in that series). I get "perks" from the business (like CART tickets, Indy tickets, etc......so I guess there are other reasons for me to be biased )