Moroccan_Mole

iTrader: (5)

just playing devil's advocate here... but how exactly would stoptech know know if you bought the brakes from an authorized reseller or not?

moog

iTrader: (14)

Reciept along w/ serial #s probably.

S12 driver

If the products are as good as they claim to be, I don't think you have to worry about warranty issue anytime soon. I would get my parts from the cheapest source as well.

kcobean

iTrader: (2)

Welcome to capitalism. It's all about supply and demand.

While I don't agree with the reseller policies as a consumer, I understand them from the manufacturers viewpoint.

Incidentally, if HopUp is buying them as an"end-user" from an authorized reseller, wouldn't they be paying "end-user prices"? And if so, how are they selling them at below list price? If HopUp is selling them below the suggested list price, which is what the resellers sold them HopUp for, then how is HopUp not losing money on them? Something sounds fishy to me....

al503

iTrader: (4)

Hop-Up is probably paying an authorized vendor wholesale +10%.

kcobean

iTrader: (2)

That being the case, it sounds like Stoptech has re-sellers who are not following the pricing guidelines and/or are probably violating their reseller agreement by reselling to other "unauthorized resellers"......The problem runs deeper than just HopUp.

Why can't we all just get along?

al503

iTrader: (4)

sorry, back button double post.

al503

iTrader: (4)

Agreed. I purchased some SS lines from them before I decided to get a BBK and it was shipped directly from another authorized vendor.

ZRAYGO

Whats to say that:

A. If I buy my brake kit from Hopup and then call stoptech for help and I tell them I bought it from lets say another dealer other than hopup? How can you verify that I bought my breaks from hopup? I could just give you any vendor. If you ask for a receipt, I could just say that I lost it or something....you would still refuse service? Sounds to me like you are just mad that they are selling at a price that you dont want them to sell at. Does it really matter who is selling the product as long as it gets sold? If i give good customer service, then that makes it all the better. Sounds like your issue is with the vendor, and not with the customer. Im guessing that maybe you should not have posted this because, there are other people that have 350z's that are buying this kit and are not on the board.....are you going to refuse them service also? That is not fare...I think stoptech is walking a very fine line here. No matter who sells the kit, unless you can prove the kit is a fake.....it was still made by stoptech an therefore, you should honor ANYONE that calls for help....

just my $2.

ZRAYGO

also if you read between the lines here, this sounds like it could be an inside job. i.e., someone knows someone on the inside sales or marketing group within Stoptech. Why would a high performance racing store sell something and not make money off it. If they are selling below list, then they must be getting some kind of mega deal from within the company itself. Any thoughts to this conspiricy theory.

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

Ok...Let me try this with an example. I'll preface this by saying AGAIN, this has nothing to do with Hopup Racing...I'm just giving you an example of how this business works. The examples I am about to give are at polar opposites on the scale. Many businesses fall somewhere in between the two.

Reseller A is a typical, hard-working entrepreneurial type. Five years ago, he decided to follow his passion and start a high performance auto house. He got a couple of friends together, and they plunked down their retirement fund to rent a nice big building. They bought a lift, all of their tools, put a showroom together, bought some software, and built a simple website. Then they started finding customers. They did everything they could to get the right parts on their customer cars. They installed turbos, brakes, electronics, and suspensions at reasonable labor rates, and made sure that their customers always went home with a smile. Their customers realized how great they were being treated, and started having their friends go to the shop. The business grew.
Fast forward to present day. This same shop has proven themselves to be an expert on a number of platforms, but they became the premier DSM tuner in the country. They have expanded their facilities. They bought a couple more lifts, an AWD dyno, hired a computer expert, and 4 more technicians. They also bought a few expensive machines so they can make parts for their own custom turbo kits. They use a modified version of an existing mass produced kit from a top manufacturer. They paid to have a new website built. Their showroom is packed with quality parts, and they decide to only sell the top of the line products. Because they are able to move a lot of product and they’re treating their customers right, they are now receiving the max discount levels from manufacturers. They’ve maintained the same customers over the last 5 years. They’ve now moved on to some new cars, but they still come back because they know they will get all of the answers and help they need, and they’ll be treated fairly on price.

Now, let’s take a look at Reseller B. This is a different type of business model. Reseller B decided yesterday that they should be in on this whole e-business thing. They say to themselves, “hey, I can make a quick buck selling car parts on the internet too.” They figure that they’ll be able to get some cheap parts for their own car in the process, which sweetens the deal even further. They sign up on all of the message boards, and start setting up accounts with manufacturers. Their sales policy is, “we’ll match any price, period.” We’ll give you our first born if you buy $10k+ from us today. The sole objective is to sell as much product at discounted prices as is humanly possible. They don’t have any fixed costs. They work from their mom’s basement in their underwear. They don’t pay any rent or labor. They don’t own any tools, but wouldn’t know how to use them even if they did. They call themselves the CEO, CFO, chief technician, and customer service manager. They don’t have a physical shop, so they don’t do installs. When a customer calls because they are having a problem, they say, “buyer beware” or they tell the customer, “I didn’t make the part…call the manufacturer.” They are up to their ears in credit card debt. They take their customers money long before they send the product, and use that money to buy more parts. They try to get all of the top of line products to sell, but don’t fit the profile of some of the manufacturers they really want to sell. Therefore, they have to go to one of the manufacturers big resellers and buy from them instead.

Ok…here’s where it gets interesting. Jimmy wants a new turbo kit for his Eclipse. He calls both shops to check pricing. He goes to shop A first, because he knows that they have a strong reputation. Even though they had advertised the product at $5395 (list price) they tell him it will be $5295, and that they’ll do an install for $1500. If he buys their custom down pipe (retail $300) and computer package (retail $700), they’ll give him an even better deal on install, and their computer expert will tune it to perfection. They quote him a total package price of $7105.50 (total retail would have been $7895). Jimmy thinks ‘wow, Sally will go nuts when she hears my fly new blowoff valve.’ The only problem is, Jimmy’s strapped for cash. Grandma only gave him $2k for Christmas this year, and it didn’t rain much, so lawn mowing money is slim. So, Jimmy calls reseller B. Reseller B says, “sure we’ll match shop A’s price on the turbo kit…actually, we’ll sell it to you for $3776.50 (30% off of list) + shipping.” Jimmy thinks this is a great deal, and says to himself, “how hard can this install thing be?” He buys the kit from reseller B, laughing all the way to the bank…or so he thinks.

Shop B couldn’t buy the turbo kit straight from the manufacturer, because the manufacturer didn’t feel that he would be a very good representative of the product, and that he wouldn’t be able to support it properly. They didn’t want their brand image diluted, and they didn’t want angry customers who did a poor install calling about having problems with their products that have nothing to do with the quality of the product itself. Therefore, shop B has no choice but to approach shop A to buy the kit instead. Shop A gets a 50% discount off of list price from the manufacturer (the deepest deal possible). They acknowledge that Shop B is a real business, and although they aren’t sure if it’s the best idea in the world, they decide to go ahead and sell the product to Shop B at a 35% discount off of list price (their technician’s new baby needs diapers, and the new machines are sucking up a lot of energy). Shop B turns around and sells it for 30% off to Jimmy. They make $269.75 off of the deal…easy money. All they did was spend a few minutes of their time talking to both Jimmy and shop A…piece of cake. They have the product shipped to Jimmy, and they consider the transaction complete…they’re responsibilities are done as far as they’re concerned.

Fast forward a month. Jimmy’s car is sputtering and stalling. He’s having all sorts of problems. He calls up shop B and explains the trouble. The owner/sales guy/technician/accountant doesn’t even really remember who Jimmy is, let alone how to help him. He says, “well, it must be a problem with the product or install…call the manufacture’s tech support and have them help.” Jimmy calls up crying about what a pile of garbage this turbo kit is, and that his friend Sam’s smoking him in his Geo Metro.

Now…let’s take a look at the aftermath of this series of events.
1. We have an angry customer. Jimmy is mad at the world because things didn’t work out. He paid a few grand for a product, and he’s not beating Ferrari’s at the stoplight grand prix. His car is running like ***, and he doesn’t know how to fix it. He goes on his favorite message board, and complains that the turbo manufacturer sucks, and that their product is garbage. He says that their tech support sucks, because they won’t spend 2 hours a day walking him through all of the errors in his install. They shouldn’t be responsible for his mistakes, and they have 1000 other customers and a business to run. Now, is the manufacturer getting a fair shake? How would you feel if you were the tech support guy at that company?
2. The brand name is being eroded. This pissed off customer is telling everyone he knows about this situation, and blaming the manufacturer. These people are only getting one side of the story, and it’s clearly not their fault. All they did was sell their product to one of their big resellers, and now they have some raving lunatic calling them day and night. People on the message boards start to say, “I heard manufacturer X doesn’t support their product well…don’t buy that kit.”
3. Low pricing is destroying competition. Everyone doesn’t get the full story. When Jimmy got the deal on his kit, he went on the boards and told everyone about it. Someone else started a group buy, and Shop B is happy to comply. He offers the same deal to these guys and makes another $1348.75 off of these guys…wow, he thinks he’s doing something great here. He’s giving a great deal, and he’s now the darling of the message forums. How do you think the other resellers in the market feel that have been around for the last 5 years. They start calling the manufacturer…they’re pissed. People keep calling asking about this great turbo kit, but nobody ever pulls the trigger and buys from them. Who is this clown in his basement that’s destroying the business they’ve sunk their life savings into? They decide that they need to lower their price on this kit a bit to compete. The price of the turbo kit starts to plummet. Next thing you know, you can buy the kit for 25% off list on pets.com. Eventually these resellers all stop selling the turbo kit. They can’t compete and sell on a 5% margin. They have rent, machines, and labor to pay for. It costs more for these things than that 5% can cover. The only guys left are the ones selling for 5%. Customers can’t get the kit installed properly. It’s riddled with problems. The product goes down the toilet, and people don’t want to deal with it. Resellers are angry, and don’t want to deal with the manufacturer anymore. It’s not worth it for them to try and sell the product any more. They are in business, and they need to make money to pay the bills.

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

Now, ask yourself some questions. Who would you rather deal with, shop A or B? Why? Is it worth it to save a few bucks up front? Which shop is doing that car community a better service? Who cares more about the customer? Who will you be able to depend on when you have a problem? Do you want to continually get the best products and services for your car? Just think it through. This example was a bit extreme, but it is the sort of thing that happens.

Many on this board are quick to jump down others’ throats before they even have a fundamental understanding of what they are talking about. They want the best deal, and they think that cheap prices are the Holy Grail of motoring. There are all sorts of issues involved that you aren’t acknowledging. It appears simple, but as I’ve shown, it can get extremely complicated. In these situations, someone always walks away angry. These situations come up every day, and I’ll tell you firsthand that they can be a nightmare to deal with.

The reality is that this is a tight-knit industry guys. People live and die by how they treat others. If you are honest, make long lasting relationships, and sell a good product, you’re ok. People will appreciate your integrity and want to work with you. If you jerk people around, get greedy, and sell a half-assed product, you’ll disappear like many others have. You have to realize that this is still a business. Although many people involved do love their cars, they need to make money and feed their families just like the rest of the world that doesn’t work in the car aftermarket.

As I said in a recent post, I stick my neck out on this board a lot. As a manufacturer, that is a risky thing to do. I was on this board long before I worked for StopTech however, and I don’t lose sight of that. My post on this topic has nothing to do with greed. People ignore that fact, which upsets me. I’m trying to do the right thing and look out for people so they don’t end up like Jimmy in my story. I am a car nut. I love my Z. I had it on order before there was even an official pre-order program. My car is #399 ever made. I gave money to this site as a founding member to keep it going in its early days. I spend hours posting stuff like this…not because I have to (I have a million bigger issues to deal with), but because I want people to see the forces that are at work here. You can claim all of the conspiracy theories that you want. You can call me a liar. Those who know me personally know what type of person I am, and that I wouldn’t be working at StopTech if I didn’t believe in the product. I simply wouldn’t do that. I want people to have the best brakes on their cars and enjoy their Z to the fullest like I do. It’s one of my favorite things in the world. This is my last post on this subject. I don’t have the time or energy for any more. If you don’t get it now, I’m not sure what to tell you. Everyone bashing me for trying to help makes me ill...not sure what else to tell you.

kcobean

iTrader: (2)

In reality, all Stoptech would have to do is call the reseller you claim to have purchased the kit from and check your story. You'd surely get caught in your lie if they wanted to catch you, and it wouldn't take them but 5 minutes to do it.

I think the real question is does Stoptech state in their warranty paperwork that the warranty is void if the kit is not purchased from an authorized reseller. If it doesn't, then they have definitely crossed the line.

The saying, "You get what you pay for" is practically a universal truth, and is truly a double-edged sword. If you make a product that way under-prices the market, it will be assumed by the consumer that it is the "low-end" option, regardless of its' quality. Eventually, this will eat into sales, so being the "best-deal-in-town" CAN be a negative. Stoptech is trying to prevent this through their reseller agreement's inclusion of a "list price" binding.

I never heard the OP express any discontentment with the consumer, they were merely providing a warning about a business practice that could affect the end-user. Again, in order to refuse a customer warranty service because they "unknowingly" purchased their kit from an unauthorized reseller is unfair if the warranty statement doesn't spell out this restriction. I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but the onus typically falls on the consumer to make sure they are in compliance with such conditions, regardless of how outlandish they may seem.

The OP did say that they are trying to put a stop to HopUp racings activity, so it's not as if this one post is their sole remediation effort. Additionally, they didn't have to make this post to begin with, so it really was kind of a generous thing for a corporation to do. I think it would be a great idea for them grandfather all of the people who purchase their kits from HopUp until they can get this stopped.


Despite my arguments, I tend to agree with you. However, if the product leaves the approved distribution channel before being sold to the end-user, it's arguable that responsibility for it's condition and operation has been voided, and as such so is the warranty covering it's condition and operation. I know this all sounds ridiculous, but what corporate law or governance doesn't.

PhoenixINX

Bottom-line...

No offense to any company, but it is a CROCK they would void any support by not purchasing it from an authorized RESELLER.

I could most certainly understand if it was not INSTALLED by an authorized INSTALLER. Though product is product...

I hate to break it to you, but aftermarket parts isn't an area to make a ton of money. If company a) wants to sell a set of stoptechs CHEAP, and build that relationship with a customer to develop further revenue. Good for him! Too bad company b) lost the sale because they were trying to make that "extra" buck. It's called being humble and taking care of the customer. Key word acquistion... Hop Up has done a GREAT job in doing that. Price and service has won them over!!!

Welcome to free market... Based on this, I no have zero interest in the Stoptech product.

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

That's just about the worst argument I've ever heard. I think I better get working on the press release, "Aftermarket industry is shutting down...it's been found that it's not worth the energy to try and make a profit!"

Come on. The point is this. I'm trying to do the right thing to protect my end users and my existing resellers that we've been working with for years. If you were in business with me, or a customer of mine, wouldn't you want me to do the same for you?

I've said it 3 or 4 times now...I have nothing bad to say about Hopup. They might be the best guys in the world. Until they return my calls and discuss becoming an authorized channel, I can't do anything about it...they are violating our policies by advertising below list price on their website. That's the bottom line.

The other bottom line...we try to help our end users whenever possible. If someone bought our kit from an authorized channel, we wouldn't say, "F U, sorry." We would do what we can to help them. I had a guy call yesterday with a problem putting pistons back into his stock calipers. I called my Tech Service manager on his cell phone (he was out on an errand) to help the guy out. Do you think this is a normal level of service. We want to help. Do a search here on the boards and our actions speak louder than my words ever can. Any of our customers that have called us for help will back me up on this one. The point is, we technically can't be responsible for chasing a solution to the end of the earth (even though we probably would try anyway, and someone would be mad at us.) This stuff really stinks. Any time you try to help someone, you always get a black eye.

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

I agree to the point you made on the support. You have a done a killer job in that arena. No one can dispute that. The issue I see is with the reseller/install logic. Whether I buy the kit from an authorized reseller or not if I screw up the install and break something the support is either going to be there or not. Would spending my money at shop a further the community...yes. Do I have the money to spend just because its shop a...probably not. I for one do not have an unlimited budget so I am going to get the parts I need at the cheapest place. Now if there is something I dont understand I'm not going to try to install it myself. If I buy it 30% list then I'll have some extra money to get it installed if need by. If I'm looking for a Vortech kit for instance and I find the cheapest place and get it for lets say 4k. while everyone else lists MUCH higher. Just cause I bought it a cheapparts.com doesn't mean I'm going to try to install it myself. Hell no I'm going to go to AEBS or another local shop that I KNOW does good work and have it done there. See what I mean? I'm not trying to bash you or downplay your contributions here. You have been an IMMENSE help to our community. I'm just trying to put you in our shoes (the consumer with zero budget)

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

as i wade through all the smoke and mirrors all i can see is the bottom line....price

as a consumer i could care less how come company a can sell the same product as company b for a lot less...i want to pay less of course

just because i get the product for less from company a does not mean i am going to have them install it....thats where an authorized dealer comes in...or do it yourself at your own risk.

we all know stoptech is a good product but who wants to pay more when you can pay less?

Tex Willer

can you buy BREMBO, ENDLESS, WILLWOOD or whatnot trhough authorized dealers only? Is warranty void on those setups if you buy one of those kits somewhere else?


I'm considering BBK at the moment, and this thread seems like a big pile of crap to me, sorry. I don't understand your concern exept for your authorized resellers having suddenly smaller margins.

I buy a stoptech kit and can't outbrake a ferrari and I will complain? rediculous.

I'd love to see hopup become an authorized retailer and suddenly sell them with a 700$ markup.

BoostTed

*disclaimer*
Im just pointing something out, I dont care to get into an argument with anyone.
*end disclaimer*

Its not just stoptech that has this policy, im sure other manufacturers have the same policy. I know for a fact that many many audio manufactures carry the same exact policy. I have never delt with a part on my car going bad but I have had things go wrong with my audio and let me tell you buying from an authorized dealer saved my *** a few times.

SlamMan

Wouldn't Jimmy's dilemma between shop A and B be solved if the manufacture only cover problems under warrantee when the product is installed by a authorized installer, regardless of who sells Jimmy the product?

What if Jimmy does decide to buy from shop A but then decided to install himself to save money. Is Jimmy covered under the warrantee if he does the install himself?