VQ Oil Analysis and Info
11-05-2007, 01:01 PM
#281
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Originally Posted by Resolute
As far as I'm concerned, Mobil1 0W-40 is one of the "best" off-the-shelf oils you can buy, and probably the only XOM product I've seen that might be worth the money. It did three track days in my car along along with a 3200 mile oil change interval through the winter time, and the results in the UOA look as good as the more expensive Amsoil TSO for the same mileage. So, yeah, I think it's a great performing oil that can be found locally for a decent price.
However, as posted in the Q&A on page two of this thread, there is no way to say what's the "best" for a FI engine. The types of FI mean the oil has different demands, the boost levels are different, some of the SC use a seperate oilo supply, some use engine oil, The tune can be vastly different among kits and tuners, etc.... too many variables that will affect the UOA results from one car to the next. I think if there were more FI guys doing UOA's, some oils might have average results better than some others, but it's tough to say. In a stock engine, there is a lot of control over the contributing factors from one UOA results to the next. The climate and driving style are not that big of a factor, since they really don't alter the actual environment the oil must operate in. The issues mentioned above alter the environment the oil must operate in, and those issues can change from kit to kit, tuner to tuner.
My suggestion is to try a good oil like the M1 0W-40, and see how that goes. Gurgen had pretty decent results with it in his engine considering the boost and build he's running. Fuel dilution is more pronounced if you're built, so that's the number one issue affecting the oil. If you're not built, then the extra heat placed on the oil from lubing the turbo center section is brutal, same for a SC that shares oil with the crankcase. If you're SC'd with seperate oil supply for your compressor, then the extra heat in the engine will still place extra demand on the oil. All this adds up to an oil that will benefit from being a thicker weight. Make sure whatever oil you use is NOT an ILSAC GF-4 approved oil. Look for an ACEA rating of A3 or C3. M1 0W-40 is a relatively thin 40wt oil, but meets those requirements. There are other 40wt oils that are thicker that might do better for you. Try Mobil1 TDT 5W-40, Quaker "European Formula" 5W-40 looks really good (but it's impossible to find), Amsoil's got some great heavy-weight oils that might do well for you. Maybe blow some money on one of Motul's 40wt oils if you like Motul. There is no definate list of oils right now to recommend for FI guys, just some educated guesses.
Will
However, as posted in the Q&A on page two of this thread, there is no way to say what's the "best" for a FI engine. The types of FI mean the oil has different demands, the boost levels are different, some of the SC use a seperate oilo supply, some use engine oil, The tune can be vastly different among kits and tuners, etc.... too many variables that will affect the UOA results from one car to the next. I think if there were more FI guys doing UOA's, some oils might have average results better than some others, but it's tough to say. In a stock engine, there is a lot of control over the contributing factors from one UOA results to the next. The climate and driving style are not that big of a factor, since they really don't alter the actual environment the oil must operate in. The issues mentioned above alter the environment the oil must operate in, and those issues can change from kit to kit, tuner to tuner.
My suggestion is to try a good oil like the M1 0W-40, and see how that goes. Gurgen had pretty decent results with it in his engine considering the boost and build he's running. Fuel dilution is more pronounced if you're built, so that's the number one issue affecting the oil. If you're not built, then the extra heat placed on the oil from lubing the turbo center section is brutal, same for a SC that shares oil with the crankcase. If you're SC'd with seperate oil supply for your compressor, then the extra heat in the engine will still place extra demand on the oil. All this adds up to an oil that will benefit from being a thicker weight. Make sure whatever oil you use is NOT an ILSAC GF-4 approved oil. Look for an ACEA rating of A3 or C3. M1 0W-40 is a relatively thin 40wt oil, but meets those requirements. There are other 40wt oils that are thicker that might do better for you. Try Mobil1 TDT 5W-40, Quaker "European Formula" 5W-40 looks really good (but it's impossible to find), Amsoil's got some great heavy-weight oils that might do well for you. Maybe blow some money on one of Motul's 40wt oils if you like Motul. There is no definate list of oils right now to recommend for FI guys, just some educated guesses.
Will
Regards
11-05-2007, 08:29 PM
#282
-Resolute- I commend you on this thread and all your time/passion on this subject.
With that said...
I'm currently using Amsoil TSO 0w-30 and would like to contribute to your research results,
BUT...I have a so-so rev-up VQ with the dreaded oil consumption issue at 1qt/2500mi with just under 24K on my VQ.
I've been self monitoring my consumption since new with using different oils dino/synth to see which gives me less consumption,
of which I won't disclose being that would be OT, but results are interesting.
Main reason for posting and questions are...
1) With my oil consumption issue, would UOA's be invalid for your comparisons?
2) Would an UOA help me prove if there is an internal problem concerning oil consumption issues?
I'm thinking possible high Chromium levels due to rings with VQ well beyond break-in period.
3) I'm planning on going 5000mi on Amsoil TSO, would the UOA be usless after adding a virgin quart to the mix half way through oil mileage duration for UOA test?
Many thanks in advance
With that said...
I'm currently using Amsoil TSO 0w-30 and would like to contribute to your research results,
BUT...I have a so-so rev-up VQ with the dreaded oil consumption issue at 1qt/2500mi with just under 24K on my VQ.
I've been self monitoring my consumption since new with using different oils dino/synth to see which gives me less consumption,
of which I won't disclose being that would be OT, but results are interesting.
Main reason for posting and questions are...
1) With my oil consumption issue, would UOA's be invalid for your comparisons?
2) Would an UOA help me prove if there is an internal problem concerning oil consumption issues?
I'm thinking possible high Chromium levels due to rings with VQ well beyond break-in period.
3) I'm planning on going 5000mi on Amsoil TSO, would the UOA be usless after adding a virgin quart to the mix half way through oil mileage duration for UOA test?
Many thanks in advance
11-06-2007, 09:16 AM
#283
Originally Posted by 06CPV35
-Resolute- I commend you on this thread and all your time/passion on this subject.
With that said...
I'm currently using Amsoil TSO 0w-30 and would like to contribute to your research results,
BUT...I have a so-so rev-up VQ with the dreaded oil consumption issue at 1qt/2500mi with just under 24K on my VQ.
I've been self monitoring my consumption since new with using different oils dino/synth to see which gives me less consumption,
of which I won't disclose being that would be OT, but results are interesting.
Main reason for posting and questions are...
1) With my oil consumption issue, would UOA's be invalid for your comparisons?
2) Would an UOA help me prove if there is an internal problem concerning oil consumption issues?
I'm thinking possible high Chromium levels due to rings with VQ well beyond break-in period.
3) I'm planning on going 5000mi on Amsoil TSO, would the UOA be usless after adding a virgin quart to the mix half way through oil mileage duration for UOA test?
Many thanks in advance
With that said...
I'm currently using Amsoil TSO 0w-30 and would like to contribute to your research results,
BUT...I have a so-so rev-up VQ with the dreaded oil consumption issue at 1qt/2500mi with just under 24K on my VQ.
I've been self monitoring my consumption since new with using different oils dino/synth to see which gives me less consumption,
of which I won't disclose being that would be OT, but results are interesting.
Main reason for posting and questions are...
1) With my oil consumption issue, would UOA's be invalid for your comparisons?
2) Would an UOA help me prove if there is an internal problem concerning oil consumption issues?
I'm thinking possible high Chromium levels due to rings with VQ well beyond break-in period.
3) I'm planning on going 5000mi on Amsoil TSO, would the UOA be usless after adding a virgin quart to the mix half way through oil mileage duration for UOA test?
Many thanks in advance
As such, a UOA will show some issues in your engine, and may help determine where the consumption is coming from. I'd say it's worth it.
As far as syn vs conventional goes, in terms of oil consumption it will depend on how you are losing your oil. If it is a volatility issue, then a syn would be a better fit. If it is from a bad seal then viscosity and additive packages are the major consideration. Worn rings, then the add pack and volatility combined will be an issue, and picking a good oil is a crap shoot at best. The UOA will help narrow it down.
Will
11-06-2007, 02:53 PM
#284
Originally Posted by Resolute
If you get a UOA done, I would not add the data to the conmparison charts. The oil numbers in the UOA would be more indicative to your engine problem than to the oil's performance.
As such, a UOA will show some issues in your engine, and may help determine where the consumption is coming from. I'd say it's worth it.
As far as syn vs conventional goes, in terms of oil consumption it will depend on how you are losing your oil. If it is a volatility issue, then a syn would be a better fit. If it is from a bad seal then viscosity and additive packages are the major consideration. Worn rings, then the add pack and volatility combined will be an issue, and picking a good oil is a crap shoot at best. The UOA will help narrow it down.
Will
As such, a UOA will show some issues in your engine, and may help determine where the consumption is coming from. I'd say it's worth it.
As far as syn vs conventional goes, in terms of oil consumption it will depend on how you are losing your oil. If it is a volatility issue, then a syn would be a better fit. If it is from a bad seal then viscosity and additive packages are the major consideration. Worn rings, then the add pack and volatility combined will be an issue, and picking a good oil is a crap shoot at best. The UOA will help narrow it down.
Will
Would you suggest me including a TBN in my UOA?
Would that added analysis help in narrowing down reason for my OC?
Sorry for OT OC question again
11-07-2007, 09:04 AM
#285
Originally Posted by 06CPV35
Thank you for that insight. Appreciate your response to my questions/concerns.
Would you suggest me including a TBN in my UOA?
Would that added analysis help in narrowing down reason for my OC?
Sorry for OT OC question again
Would you suggest me including a TBN in my UOA?
Would that added analysis help in narrowing down reason for my OC?
Sorry for OT OC question again
I would say the UOA could help narrow down where the consumption is coming from, ie blow-by, fuel dilution, etc...
Will
11-07-2007, 12:16 PM
#286
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anyone using redline oil. is it any good. I use royal purple 5w30 should i stay away from it. i used rp for several oil changes and i changed it every 3k. How about eneos motor oil?
Last edited by anhhuy vu; 11-07-2007 at 12:53 PM.
11-07-2007, 05:02 PM
#288
Originally Posted by Resolute
Don't bother with the TBN test, the oil's acid build-up is already neutralized by the fresh oil you add. So, it's impossible to have the TBN test show us how durable the oil is, since it's being fortified with fresh oil.
I would say the UOA could help narrow down where the consumption is coming from, ie blow-by, fuel dilution, etc...
Will
I would say the UOA could help narrow down where the consumption is coming from, ie blow-by, fuel dilution, etc...
Will
11-08-2007, 09:38 AM
#289
Originally Posted by anhhuy vu
anyone using redline oil. is it any good. I use royal purple 5w30 should i stay away from it. i used rp for several oil changes and i changed it every 3k. How about eneos motor oil?
Originally Posted by anhhuy vu
now is the mobil 1 5w30 any good compared to the 0w40. thanks
Will
11-08-2007, 06:43 PM
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Resolute, thanks for the great article! You have educated me in oil analysis, even though I may need to read it over again. First time around I took notes and a lot sunk in, still more to learn. I am sold on finding out what will be the best protection for my car'Z. I will be sending out UOA kits on both cars soon. First some background on them.
05 MT Non Rev Up
42k mi (DD no track)
Castrol GTX 5w-30 up until 34k mi
Royal Purple 10w-30 on the last two oil changes (currently on second oil change)
Will run it till 4400 miles and most likely send out to Blackstone.
06 MT Rev Up
Was (past tense) one of oil consumption cars, recently replaced with the Japan hand built engine (pinned as the V2) with no oil consumption so far.
Mileage on new engine 2200 mi (DD no track)
Castrol GTX 5w-30
At 800 mi the oil was drained and currently have 1400 mi on fresh oil.
I am considering a more extensive test on the 06 to see if the rings have settled and also to see if there are any signs of oil consumption. A little more money but I am considering Dyson labs. I realize the engine is still in the break in period although I want to see how much metal it is chewing up, so the first one will be for a benchmark baseline and the second will start to really indicate protection or no protection. I plan on running it up to 4400 miles as this appears to be the universal average at least with Blackstone reports. The first test being still in the break period would not be worth posting, but at least I will have something to start from, better than nothing is what I figure.
The 05 is due for an oil change in 800mi, say in the next week or two. The 06 well it may be bit longer before it reaches 4400 mi. I am really concerned with the 06 and the extensive testing that would indicate any engine problems.
Would this be the best route on the 06 Rev Up?
Thanks in advance.
Curtis
05 MT Non Rev Up
42k mi (DD no track)
Castrol GTX 5w-30 up until 34k mi
Royal Purple 10w-30 on the last two oil changes (currently on second oil change)
Will run it till 4400 miles and most likely send out to Blackstone.
06 MT Rev Up
Was (past tense) one of oil consumption cars, recently replaced with the Japan hand built engine (pinned as the V2) with no oil consumption so far.
Mileage on new engine 2200 mi (DD no track)
Castrol GTX 5w-30
At 800 mi the oil was drained and currently have 1400 mi on fresh oil.
I am considering a more extensive test on the 06 to see if the rings have settled and also to see if there are any signs of oil consumption. A little more money but I am considering Dyson labs. I realize the engine is still in the break in period although I want to see how much metal it is chewing up, so the first one will be for a benchmark baseline and the second will start to really indicate protection or no protection. I plan on running it up to 4400 miles as this appears to be the universal average at least with Blackstone reports. The first test being still in the break period would not be worth posting, but at least I will have something to start from, better than nothing is what I figure.
The 05 is due for an oil change in 800mi, say in the next week or two. The 06 well it may be bit longer before it reaches 4400 mi. I am really concerned with the 06 and the extensive testing that would indicate any engine problems.
Would this be the best route on the 06 Rev Up?
Thanks in advance.
Curtis
11-09-2007, 08:23 AM
#291
Yeah, Terry Dyson is the best interpreter for your results. He costs more than BL, but he'll be a much greater help when it comes to using your UOA to decipher any oil consumption issues. He has a package deal on his website for the test and the analysis for around fifty bucks, iirc. I'd say if you're worried about your new engine in the 06, it would be worth the money for his opinion on how your engine is doing.
Will
Will
11-09-2007, 12:42 PM
#293
Here's a paper supporting using a UOA for ring wear and fuel dilution issues from improper seating of the top piston ring, from the SAE site:
Title: Fire Ring Wear Assessment on a 6v92ta Detroit Diesel Engine
Document Number: 890420
Author(s):
R. A. Simmons - Petro-Canada Products
K. R. Dymock - Petro-Canada Products
G. D. Webster - National Research Council of Canada
Abstract:
Initial work has been completed on a fire ring (top piston ring) wear assessment in a military pattern heavy duty high speed diesel running on a range of fuel qualities............With the fire rings as the only major sources of chromium from engine wear components, engine oil analysis for trace chromium (by atomic absorption) in the 50-1500 ppb range could then be used to determine fire ring wear............. The results were verified by data obtained earlier from 500 hour durability runs in which the fire rings were physically weighed. The wear measurements made by the oil analysis technique correlated within 10% of the 500 hour measurements...............
Essentially, the amount of Chromium in the UOA could be compared to the actual loss of mass from the piston rings when they were weighed, and the result was within 10% deviation. Using the ppm of chromium with fuel dilution testing in the used oil, a comparison could be made on the amount of seating, or lack thereof, and blow-by.
Terry Dyson has the experience to draw some conclusions from your UOA for the OC issues you have. However, as the abstract proves, this might only be the ability to look at the data and say it is ring wear/failure. There is no real solution in terms of oil choice to properly compensate for mechanical problems.
Will
Title: Fire Ring Wear Assessment on a 6v92ta Detroit Diesel Engine
Document Number: 890420
Author(s):
R. A. Simmons - Petro-Canada Products
K. R. Dymock - Petro-Canada Products
G. D. Webster - National Research Council of Canada
Abstract:
Initial work has been completed on a fire ring (top piston ring) wear assessment in a military pattern heavy duty high speed diesel running on a range of fuel qualities............With the fire rings as the only major sources of chromium from engine wear components, engine oil analysis for trace chromium (by atomic absorption) in the 50-1500 ppb range could then be used to determine fire ring wear............. The results were verified by data obtained earlier from 500 hour durability runs in which the fire rings were physically weighed. The wear measurements made by the oil analysis technique correlated within 10% of the 500 hour measurements...............
Essentially, the amount of Chromium in the UOA could be compared to the actual loss of mass from the piston rings when they were weighed, and the result was within 10% deviation. Using the ppm of chromium with fuel dilution testing in the used oil, a comparison could be made on the amount of seating, or lack thereof, and blow-by.
Terry Dyson has the experience to draw some conclusions from your UOA for the OC issues you have. However, as the abstract proves, this might only be the ability to look at the data and say it is ring wear/failure. There is no real solution in terms of oil choice to properly compensate for mechanical problems.
Will
11-09-2007, 03:28 PM
#294
Thank you for that abstract. As I thought, Chromium levels could indicate ring wear/failure.
This is what I need as I'm building my case against Infiniti/Nissan on my OC issue.
Hopefully when my issue is all said and done (with a new VQ), I can be a valid contributer to this thread with UOA's after my new VQ break-in period.
I am pleased to see Amsoil's TSO conclusions here and that's what I decided to use prior to discovering this very informative/educational thread.
I'm very curious about their new SSO 0w-30 as well as their AFL 5w-40 Euro results for our VQ's.
Perhaps when my issue is resolved, that's how I'll contribute here with UOA's from those two I mentioned.
John
This is what I need as I'm building my case against Infiniti/Nissan on my OC issue.
Hopefully when my issue is all said and done (with a new VQ), I can be a valid contributer to this thread with UOA's after my new VQ break-in period.
I am pleased to see Amsoil's TSO conclusions here and that's what I decided to use prior to discovering this very informative/educational thread.
I'm very curious about their new SSO 0w-30 as well as their AFL 5w-40 Euro results for our VQ's.
Perhaps when my issue is resolved, that's how I'll contribute here with UOA's from those two I mentioned.
John
11-10-2007, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Resolute
Yeah, Terry Dyson is the best interpreter for your results. He costs more than BL, but he'll be a much greater help when it comes to using your UOA to decipher any oil consumption issues. He has a package deal on his website for the test and the analysis for around fifty bucks, iirc. I'd say if you're worried about your new engine in the 06, it would be worth the money for his opinion on how your engine is doing.
Will
Will
Thanks for the abstract on ring wear detection, very interesting and educational information on the firing rings as the only major sources of chromium from engine wear components. I hope there will be enough mileage (4400) on the engine to determine if the rings have seated properly. I cannot recall what the normal mileage would be, for rings to seat. If not then on the second test at 8800 miles on the engine.
I plan on two Dyson tests with Castrol GTX 5w-30. If all the data looks good and the rings have seated properly with no mechanical failures then on the third oil change I am considering Mobil 1 0w-40.
11-11-2007, 09:14 AM
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Trying to look for a Eneos comment/opinion/ratings on this thread, just put 5w-40 in my Z and I like it, been using M1 5w-30 with no problems (miles 47k) Thoughts about this oil? thx
11-11-2007, 01:21 PM
#298
Originally Posted by USN HM 350Z
Will,
Any intrest in a UOA on Lucas Synthetic 20-50 or their 15-40 HDMO?
I ask because I am going to be changing out my diff fluid to Lucas Synthetic and will probably change out the oil on the same time. This will be on my Twin Turbo.
Any intrest in a UOA on Lucas Synthetic 20-50 or their 15-40 HDMO?
I ask because I am going to be changing out my diff fluid to Lucas Synthetic and will probably change out the oil on the same time. This will be on my Twin Turbo.
Will
