Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Two things stand out here, the fuel dilution on your last oil sample, and the high silicon in all of your samples. The silison is not used in any of the oils you've run so far as an additive (some oils like Motul 300V use silicon as a foam inhibitor). This suggests poor filtering. Sitting in LA traffic, lots of smog, and poor air filtration means you might have some particle streaking issues. What air and oil filter are you using, and how long of a drive do you normally make?

Will

bwassul

I'm using a K&N air filter cleaned once a year (11k miles) and a Purolator Premium Plus oil filter. My drives normally range from 4-8 miles, but I let the engine warm up for a couple minutes before driving. I just noticed my iron is a little high, too. Does that go along with the higher aluminum wear?

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

The Fe and Al are probably unrelated. First thing that comes to mind is your K&N not filtering well or you having a leak somewhere. A mating surface not sealed right or a small vacuum leak could be the issue, allowing dirt to enter your engine. Either way your silicon is a bit high compared to other samples.

The next thing to consider, is that you're not driving long enough, or hard enough, to get the moisture and fuel out of the crankcase. Hence your fuel dilution being a bit high (lower flash point) the sample before last. You're doing well to let the engine warm up before driving it, but don't be afraid to go WOT once it's up to temp. Other than that, stop and go, short trip driving is an oil killer. Get a TBN test done next time, and we'll see how badly acids are building up. If it's good, then we might try a thinner oil with a high TBN value for your needs.

Another option is to get Terry Dyson to look at it. He has a lot of proprietary information and can give you some good suggestions. His information is copyrighted, though, so it's not always allowed to be shared for everyone's benefit. He has a lot of experience in reading UOA's and making specific recommendations, though- for a price.

Will

bwassul

Thanks, Will. I'm going to retorque all bolts and clamps in the intake track along with swapping the K&N filter for a Wix. I'll also give a few runs at WOT after it's warmed up. I'll run my current M1 0W-40 for 4k miles and let you know the results of the next analysis.

Just to be sure, I'll make my next oil filter a Wix or M1.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Sounds good, I'll be curious to see how that affects the results. Your wear isn't dangerous or anything, but it is above the norm to be sure. Hopefully, it doesn't continue.

Will

ZeeForce

+1
I am currently consulting with Terry Dyson on the break in and tune on a 06 Rev Up that had the engine replaced with a hand built one from Japan. This is the first of the new engines to have a UOA done and Terry is working with me on ensuring this engine is sealing properly for longevity. It’s worth it ten times over for the consultation and recommendations and it’s not that expensive.

ZeeForce

Will, here is the UOA on Castrol GTX 05w-30

Some history on the engine:
The engine was recently replaced with a hand built one from Japan to correct oil consumption issue with 06 MT RevUp’s.
First oil was drained at 800 miles, the current sample UOA is on the next oil interval of 3577mi and a total of 4380mi on freshly built engine.
I provided some virgin oil for testing also, which is on the green “Reference” line. Note the Titan with a 4 and the Silicon with a 15 were from contamination in the pipes from the refinery at Castrol and had no bearing on the actual numbers from the lab.
DD 50/50 street freeway, climate in area 100 degrees down to 32 degrees. In the central valley of CA, which I would say is not dusty. Running Shell V Power 91 octane.

Thanks in advance
-Curtis

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Well, the VOA proved priceless in this case. I would never advise anyone to take my advice over Terry's, but here's what I think:

First, it's still breaking in. Your wear metals are slightly high in Fe and Copper, but that's fairly normal for so few miles on the engine. Your copper wear is not from the bearings, since the tin and Pb are low. I'd say the copper is from copper gasket leachate, typical during brake-in. Leachate is corrosive, and surely contributed to your TAN level.

The sodium level is high, and the first guess would normally be coolant, but there is no glycol in your oil and the VOA shows high sodium from the bottle. My guess is Castrol uses some sodium xylene sulfonate as a detergent coupler.

Your flash point is very low, and the oil sheared quite a bit which also contributes to your TAN. I'd say you would have a fuel dilution problem occurring, and while the dilution level is not extreme, GTX is not very well suited to handle any fuel dilution, so a little goes a long way to deteriorating this oil. The chromium looks good, so your piston rings are wearing fine, but the high Fe, along with the fuel dilution clues, suggest the break-in has not finished and you are seeing blow-by deteriorate your oil.

You are in central CA? My first guess on our high silicon and sodium increase over the VOA, would be ingestion of some road salt. But, I don't know if that's something you would see where you live.

Another UOA to check trending would be a good idea, and see if the fuel dilution problem doesn't improve with break-in.

My .02 on this sample.

Will

fordslowcus

Well, here in Lemoore dust gets EVERYWHERE. Central cali is the agricultural center of the country or atleast the state. Na and Si will sky rocket(by skyrocket i mean around 20-100ppm increase) if youve got any type of dirt in your sample. But yea that Na is looking something fierce. If glycol was seeping into your oil its neutrality/acidity would be affected but your TAN test shows nothing of such sort. If youve got high readings on this I recomend cleaning/replacing your air filter or better sample taking practices. (wipe area w/a lint free rag, drain a little place sample bottle, continue draining)

Now about the low flashpoint...In aircraft engines we run special oil (1010) when an engine is going into storage. This oil has a lower flash point than normal engine oil. Since we deal mostly with jet phisycs its only the initial 10 secs during start up that you see smoke billowing out a TurboJet/Fan/Shaft engine. I dont know how new or how you received your engine but it might have some type of preservation oil still in it which hasnt been completely burned off yet.

Oh and the lab is still open for my fellow comrades.

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (6)

Need some expert input here....

Sent an oil sample in last week, I have non-Revup VQ35DE, right at 60K, and the oil was Mobile 1 Syn 5W30 with change interval of 4800 miles. I drained about 2.5 quarts (filled 4.5 quarts). I think I topped up about 0.5 quarts somewhere along the way. I know, I should have monitored the oil level better.

Anyway, here are the comments that I got from Blackstone:

I don't race, but I do drive in pretty much 90% city with a lot stop and go and when roads are open, I definitely open it up once in a while, so yeah, this motor gets a fair amount of abuse.

Here's the element table:



I'm surprised they didn't find any issues with the rings, but rather, the bearings. Then again, I'm no expert on this, so comments are welcome. Thanks.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

What engine is this oil sample from, and what oil was used (brand & grade)?

Will

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (6)

Sorry about that, for some reason I thought I posted that.

It is a non-Revup VQ35DE, oil was Mobil 1 Synthetic 5W30. I've since switched to Castrol GTX blend.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

The lead is most likely from your bearings and the high Fe and Chromium indicate upper cylinder wear. The oil itself is still in grade and there is no indication of fuel dilution for this sample. The biggest factor contributing to wear is the lack of oil in your crankcase. Having only half the volume of oil is a big issue, as the low volume inhibits the oil's capacity for suspension and consistent flow. Upper cylinder wear is only going to make oil consumption worse with blow-by.

Keep a better eye on your oil level in the future, and try another oil. M1 5W-30 has never impressed me, and the high price doesn't give high results. If you like M1, then the 0W-40 seems the best way to go. Otherwise, I would give Valvoline 5W-30 high milage a shot, Rotella T-Syn, or German Castrol 0W-30. Get another UOA with any of these while maintaining decent oil level, and a new UOA done to see how the wear stacks against this sample.

And try a better air filter. Is yours old, or a K&N type? They seem to flow more air, but not filter as well.

Will

ZeeForce

Excellent analysis Will, thanks a bunch, your two cents on this sample is invaluable, and it’s dialed in!

Unlike central CA, there is no salt and dirt where I live. The gasket material and assembly lubes used are responsible for the higher silicon and sodium. Do you have any thoughts on why this may be?

Cheers
-Curtis

ZeeForce

Thanks for the commentary, well appreciated. I will keep your lab in mind and pass on your services to other members.

The oil based cotton K&N style air filter used on my Nisamo CAI was swapped out for an Amsoil EaAU paper type after this UOA was sampled.

Engine has only 4380 miles on it, and the initial oil was drained at 800 miles, this sample test was on fresh oil and the sample catch was done after a 20 minute freeway drive to burn off any moisture in the oil. The oil was caught half way through the drain while it was still hot. Agreed, probably still burning off the assembly lubes, also maybe from fuel dilution and engine wear in.

Thanks again

Cheers
-Curtis

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the kind words, I missed the RTV and assembly lubes contributing to the silicon and sodium values, though. Very obvious for a newly assembled engine, but winter in CO means salt & sand is all over the place, so my mind just thought it was road salt.

In any case, your upper cylinder wear is normal for a new engine, and hopefully the next UOA shows a drop in the Fe and fuel dilution from blow-by. Your chromium should hopefully go to "0" or stay at "1", as well. We should also see the sodium and silicon go down in light of the break-in completing, especially with your new air filter.

I've got a good document on trace materials picked up in a UOA from various gaskets, lubes, and RTV's used in a new engine. I'll see if I can't find it and post it here. It covers some of the more popular assembly lube additives that can affect the first UOA or two, as well as common gasket materials involved and how they might skew results from fresh engine builds.

Will

ZeeForce

As I have said in the past, you are a great asset to the community!

No problem, it’s got to be tough fielding questions from members all over the U.S. with different climate and road conditions.

The document would make for some great information. If I could get a better understanding of assembly lubes and fuel dilution on fresh built engines, then I can work on a remedy for getting these under control. This would be especially helpful to pass on to the other members on the Oil Consumption thread with new engines, and still consuming oil. As I have learned that oil consumption will be present on freshly built engines during and even after manufactures break-in period of 1200 miles is complete. Some engines with more oil consumption than others, and two contributing factors to add in the equation are: assembly lubes and fuel dilution. Get these under control during break-in and it will use less oil.

Is oil chemistry also a key player with fuel dilution during engine break-in? It appears that my conventional oil Castrol GTX did not fair well on a fresh built engine when fuel dilution is present. Are synthetic oils any better combating fuel dilution in a freshly built engine?

I am looking towards Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 on my next oil change.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

The fuel you have in your sample from blow-by should hopefully not be a problem in the future as your piston rings seat and break-in properly.

However, no conventional oil is going to do well in the presence of fuel, and Castrol GTX is no exception. Conventional oils break down and shear from the fuel dilution much faster than synthetics do, because synthetic base stocks remain much more stable under fuel contamination. Some synthetics, like RLI's BioSyn 5W-40, were developed for this very reason, to protect the engine despite massive fuel dilution, as seen in Audi's direct-injection V8.

This is another reason why I have no problems switching to synthetics as soon as possible. The engine break-in may take a few thousand miles depending on the engine, during which time blow-by will put fuel in the oil. Synthetics typically allow for better protection of the engine during this critical time by handling the fuel dilution better than conventional oil, as well as better neutralizing any acids from the assembly lubes and gasket by-product. This is why most high performance engines often come with synthetic oils installed from the factory, such as the new GT-R, so that the engine has better protection during the break-in process.

As far as assembly lubes and byproducts of gasket material are concerned, this is one reason why I always change my oil fairly soon after getting a new engine. I usually change at 500 miles or so, and then again at 1200 miles or so, just to be sure that all the remaining permeates from these materials are carried out of the engine before the oil degrades from their presence.

Will

ZeeForce

Is it possible that engine break-in, again depending on the engine, may take more than a few thousand miles, say up to 15-18k miles to fully seal?

Thanks for the information on when to switch to synthetic and the reasons why.

Flushing the initial oil TWICE on a fresh built engine, before 1200 miles, is very good information.

I am looking forward to the document on assembly lubes.

Cheers
-Curtis

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

I would say most engines break-in faster than 15k miles. In fact, I would not usually expect my own engine to be in the break-in process beyond 2k miles. However, not all engines are the same and some will take longer than others. A UOA is good to show if the engine is still breaking-in or is having difficulty with break-in.

If I was on my other computer, I would find and post that article. I'll put it up later this week.

Will