The most RWHP you can get N/A?
09-15-2013, 01:24 PM
#102
I know this is a super old thread, and I'm just wanting to resurrect it. I feel like a built, stroked, ITB setup with JWT c9/c10 cams could be a very reliable, street-driven Z breaking the 400whp barrier with all the right parts. Just so long as there's no smog in your state I suppose. It would obviously cost just as much as a turbo build at least, maybe more. I don't think there would even be a $10,000 difference in a full-blown NA build vs a mild turbo build though (even though the turbo build would make more power per dollar). The NA build would sound amazing and be much more reliable I'd imagine though.
Why haven't I seen this done yet? Is it just such a niche build that few people are interested in? No one has a fully built stroked ITB NA Z?
I've found this thread, and every other serious NA thread seemed to have died a long time ago, the average forum build is 300-310whp it seems without going ITBs/standalone ECU/built motor/stroker:
https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...with-itbs.html
Why haven't I seen this done yet? Is it just such a niche build that few people are interested in? No one has a fully built stroked ITB NA Z?
I've found this thread, and every other serious NA thread seemed to have died a long time ago, the average forum build is 300-310whp it seems without going ITBs/standalone ECU/built motor/stroker:
https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...with-itbs.html
09-15-2013, 04:35 PM
#103
your not gaining a ton from itb, your gaining nothing from standalone ems that dosnt make power it gives you more safety options, and stroker is going to increase a %, turbo benefits the most from strokers. for the cash to invest into a stroker itb setup your better off swapping to lsx if you dont care about running a different tach and insist on a NA engine. most people dont like to throw cash away
plus once again which has been stated numerous times, 400 whp na or 400 whp turbo absolutely dosnt matter power is power how its made dosnt matter as the stress exerted on the parts is going to be the same.
you also focused too much on a number already there are very few truly no bs accurate dynos out there. i can tell you the dyno i ran on the first time was recording 100 whp less on setups with a known power level, second and third dyno has shown 350 whp on 8 psi turbo z setups both are dynojets(and the first one dosnt care much for power numbers since most of there business is verifying speedometers for the police.) track times are what matters.
plus once again which has been stated numerous times, 400 whp na or 400 whp turbo absolutely dosnt matter power is power how its made dosnt matter as the stress exerted on the parts is going to be the same.
you also focused too much on a number already there are very few truly no bs accurate dynos out there. i can tell you the dyno i ran on the first time was recording 100 whp less on setups with a known power level, second and third dyno has shown 350 whp on 8 psi turbo z setups both are dynojets(and the first one dosnt care much for power numbers since most of there business is verifying speedometers for the police.) track times are what matters.
Last edited by jerryd87; 09-15-2013 at 04:38 PM.
09-16-2013, 12:48 PM
#104
your not gaining a ton from itb, your gaining nothing from standalone ems that dosnt make power it gives you more safety options, and stroker is going to increase a %, turbo benefits the most from strokers. for the cash to invest into a stroker itb setup your better off swapping to lsx if you dont care about running a different tach and insist on a NA engine. most people dont like to throw cash away
plus once again which has been stated numerous times, 400 whp na or 400 whp turbo absolutely dosnt matter power is power how its made dosnt matter as the stress exerted on the parts is going to be the same.
you also focused too much on a number already there are very few truly no bs accurate dynos out there. i can tell you the dyno i ran on the first time was recording 100 whp less on setups with a known power level, second and third dyno has shown 350 whp on 8 psi turbo z setups both are dynojets(and the first one dosnt care much for power numbers since most of there business is verifying speedometers for the police.) track times are what matters.
plus once again which has been stated numerous times, 400 whp na or 400 whp turbo absolutely dosnt matter power is power how its made dosnt matter as the stress exerted on the parts is going to be the same.
you also focused too much on a number already there are very few truly no bs accurate dynos out there. i can tell you the dyno i ran on the first time was recording 100 whp less on setups with a known power level, second and third dyno has shown 350 whp on 8 psi turbo z setups both are dynojets(and the first one dosnt care much for power numbers since most of there business is verifying speedometers for the police.) track times are what matters.
I personally don't like cross-make engine swaps. It bastardizes the car IMO. My Mercedes 190e is going from a M103 2.6 6-liter SOHC to a M104 3.2 6-liter DOHC engine. Same motor mounts, exhaust location, etc. I just like things to look as if they were designed by the manufacturer to an extent.
As far as ITB's, you definitely see power gains from them. Much more efficient design; why do you think race cars use ITB's and slide throttles? Standalone ECU I don't think of as a power-gainer, it's just a requirement when you do anything crazy outside the factory ECU's capabilities. Stroker is going to obviously be more beneficial to turbo than NA (almost every mod is more beneficial to forced induction though, so I don't see your point?). 4.15 stroker NA is ~18% more displacement, and assuming you accounted for this with ITB's, fuel injectors, heads, cams, exhaust part selection should result in about that much gain in power compared to a 3.5 liter engine similarly optimized.
I know dyno numbers vary, I don't focus on that so much, but would assume that if original stock dyno was ~220whp, and we saw that same dyno later read 400whp, you could calculate the percentage gain, and apply that to the known original engine horsepower easily. Either way, times matter more - yes. It's just nice to know the end result of mods (AMG, BRABUS, NISMO, etc don't sell cars based on track times - they publish specs to consumers).
The only downsides to the FI route in my mind is added weight, and additional parts that can break.
09-16-2013, 02:42 PM
#105
you see a little gain not huge most race cars actually dont use ITB, a proper intake design can do the exact same thing as ITB, the advantage is pulling from atmosphere, a large plenum negates that completely and does the exact same thing.
the stock ecu is more then capable, honestly what do you gain going aftermarket on NA? at most you get mayby one or two safety options that dont take place till after the engine is already hurt and if you have a 03 wideband control nothing worth the huge cost.
what you want to do requires full custom parts not off the shelf anything this is the biggest mistake joe schmoe makes when looking to build something especially a max effort engine. a part can be optimized for a 3.5L or a 4.15L not both, heck it cant even be optimized for a 3.5L across all rpm ranges. the parts you talk about are made to appeal to a large number of people, they arnt optimal for anyone and wont make a max effort engine. displacement dosnt make as much of a difference if you dont take this into account which is why most people who just throw the biggest everything on the engine(exactly what your suggesting) make less hp per L then they should be.
added weight is negligible, especially since you can use lighter components for the cash you save, i was simply pointing out the reason not many people do it is because it isnt cost effective or reasonable.
the stock ecu is more then capable, honestly what do you gain going aftermarket on NA? at most you get mayby one or two safety options that dont take place till after the engine is already hurt and if you have a 03 wideband control nothing worth the huge cost.
what you want to do requires full custom parts not off the shelf anything this is the biggest mistake joe schmoe makes when looking to build something especially a max effort engine. a part can be optimized for a 3.5L or a 4.15L not both, heck it cant even be optimized for a 3.5L across all rpm ranges. the parts you talk about are made to appeal to a large number of people, they arnt optimal for anyone and wont make a max effort engine. displacement dosnt make as much of a difference if you dont take this into account which is why most people who just throw the biggest everything on the engine(exactly what your suggesting) make less hp per L then they should be.
added weight is negligible, especially since you can use lighter components for the cash you save, i was simply pointing out the reason not many people do it is because it isnt cost effective or reasonable.
Ya, I definitely see how LS swaps make more sense, and people have done this. I just would like to see if there is anyone out there by now who has done the unthinkable. The topic isn't about what makes sense either, it's about the most RWHP you can get N/A (with the VQ).
I personally don't like cross-make engine swaps. It bastardizes the car IMO. My Mercedes 190e is going from a M103 2.6 6-liter SOHC to a M104 3.2 6-liter DOHC engine. Same motor mounts, exhaust location, etc. I just like things to look as if they were designed by the manufacturer to an extent.
As far as ITB's, you definitely see power gains from them. Much more efficient design; why do you think race cars use ITB's and slide throttles? Standalone ECU I don't think of as a power-gainer, it's just a requirement when you do anything crazy outside the factory ECU's capabilities. Stroker is going to obviously be more beneficial to turbo than NA (almost every mod is more beneficial to forced induction though, so I don't see your point?). 4.15 stroker NA is ~18% more displacement, and assuming you accounted for this with ITB's, fuel injectors, heads, cams, exhaust part selection should result in about that much gain in power compared to a 3.5 liter engine similarly optimized.
I know dyno numbers vary, I don't focus on that so much, but would assume that if original stock dyno was ~220whp, and we saw that same dyno later read 400whp, you could calculate the percentage gain, and apply that to the known original engine horsepower easily. Either way, times matter more - yes. It's just nice to know the end result of mods (AMG, BRABUS, NISMO, etc don't sell cars based on track times - they publish specs to consumers).
The only downsides to the FI route in my mind is added weight, and additional parts that can break.
I personally don't like cross-make engine swaps. It bastardizes the car IMO. My Mercedes 190e is going from a M103 2.6 6-liter SOHC to a M104 3.2 6-liter DOHC engine. Same motor mounts, exhaust location, etc. I just like things to look as if they were designed by the manufacturer to an extent.
As far as ITB's, you definitely see power gains from them. Much more efficient design; why do you think race cars use ITB's and slide throttles? Standalone ECU I don't think of as a power-gainer, it's just a requirement when you do anything crazy outside the factory ECU's capabilities. Stroker is going to obviously be more beneficial to turbo than NA (almost every mod is more beneficial to forced induction though, so I don't see your point?). 4.15 stroker NA is ~18% more displacement, and assuming you accounted for this with ITB's, fuel injectors, heads, cams, exhaust part selection should result in about that much gain in power compared to a 3.5 liter engine similarly optimized.
I know dyno numbers vary, I don't focus on that so much, but would assume that if original stock dyno was ~220whp, and we saw that same dyno later read 400whp, you could calculate the percentage gain, and apply that to the known original engine horsepower easily. Either way, times matter more - yes. It's just nice to know the end result of mods (AMG, BRABUS, NISMO, etc don't sell cars based on track times - they publish specs to consumers).
The only downsides to the FI route in my mind is added weight, and additional parts that can break.
09-16-2013, 03:07 PM
#106
you see a little gain not huge most race cars actually dont use ITB, a proper intake design can do the exact same thing as ITB, the advantage is pulling from atmosphere, a large plenum negates that completely and does the exact same thing.
the stock ecu is more then capable, honestly what do you gain going aftermarket on NA? at most you get mayby one or two safety options that dont take place till after the engine is already hurt and if you have a 03 wideband control nothing worth the huge cost.
what you want to do requires full custom parts not off the shelf anything this is the biggest mistake joe schmoe makes when looking to build something especially a max effort engine. a part can be optimized for a 3.5L or a 4.15L not both, heck it cant even be optimized for a 3.5L across all rpm ranges. the parts you talk about are made to appeal to a large number of people, they arnt optimal for anyone and wont make a max effort engine. displacement dosnt make as much of a difference if you dont take this into account which is why most people who just throw the biggest everything on the engine(exactly what your suggesting) make less hp per L then they should be.
added weight is negligible, especially since you can use lighter components for the cash you save, i was simply pointing out the reason not many people do it is because it isnt cost effective or reasonable.
the stock ecu is more then capable, honestly what do you gain going aftermarket on NA? at most you get mayby one or two safety options that dont take place till after the engine is already hurt and if you have a 03 wideband control nothing worth the huge cost.
what you want to do requires full custom parts not off the shelf anything this is the biggest mistake joe schmoe makes when looking to build something especially a max effort engine. a part can be optimized for a 3.5L or a 4.15L not both, heck it cant even be optimized for a 3.5L across all rpm ranges. the parts you talk about are made to appeal to a large number of people, they arnt optimal for anyone and wont make a max effort engine. displacement dosnt make as much of a difference if you dont take this into account which is why most people who just throw the biggest everything on the engine(exactly what your suggesting) make less hp per L then they should be.
added weight is negligible, especially since you can use lighter components for the cash you save, i was simply pointing out the reason not many people do it is because it isnt cost effective or reasonable.
Yeah, I've seen some of the crazy carbon fiber race plenums, and they can probably be close to as efficient as ITB/slide throttles. No readily available large or at least practical plenum exists that negates the advantages of ITB's for the VQ yet however; carbotron < ITBs (No idea how efficient NISMO race plenums are). You need a motorsports account for that kind of stuff, and obviously it's not possible for most people. Prices have come down considerably on Z's, and aftermarket parts for the DE motor though. I know you can't have the same parts for a 3.5 liter vs 4.15 liter. The parts I am talking about don't appeal to a wide range of people, I didn't list any specific part did I? I just listed types of parts. On the intake side, if you simplify the build down to ITB's (say Jenvey), and some custom fabricated plenum's, the only other thing that you might need to do custom is exhaust (parts-wise). Otherwise, the aftermarket support is already there for the DE (cams, stroker kits, heads, tuners, VQ-knowledge).
09-16-2013, 06:14 PM
#108
all you need to eliminate the plenum in tuning for one on a 4.15L is a 4.15L or larger plenum(which really isnt that big). once you hit that the plenum is so large that the engine is thinking it is drawing from the atmosphere thus "tricking" it and it will perform identical to ITB's in every single case. from there you simply decide what power band you want and match the runners to that, ITB's are only made for a very specific rpm range on a 3.5L, anything outside of that is pointless which is why most racers use sheet metal intakes with large plenums it is far cheaper and equally efficient as a large plenum intake. i really dont see any additional support now then i did in 2010 when i bought mine, its all the same parts available just a couple more people came out with turbo kits(and some floundered). same cams, same strokers, sam oil pans and bearings, same intakes, ect.
a "true" 400 whp not some iffy who knows what the dynos calibration is crap is actually pretty close to what a 4.15 gt rolex car would put out, 350 whp for those(and thats actually a pretty beefy VE there around 110-115% if you calculate it) and require pretty much one off parts, you multiply that by 1.19(rounded up since its 18.5%) for the larger displacement and thats 416.5 hp. sure in the perfect world the heads can support it but they are probably getting pretty close to their limits for NA power even ported.
now a shop can undoubtedly POST a number, but the question is, is it actually making that? unless its one off parts and highly custom its highly unlikely and if they where we could do the calculations find it exceeds the possible VE numbers, and your definitely going to have to rev the engine up to hit a true 400 with a dry sump oiling system. kinda like what sg motorsports did with there setup, posted 372 hp dyno but that would mean the engine was running 130 or 140% VE at that power which isnt remotely possible from a engine with mostly off the shelf parts NA(forgot exact number been a few months since last time i actually calculated it.) or a NA engine period since the best all out race engines in the world are only hitting 120-125% for a very very limited rpm band.
a "true" 400 whp not some iffy who knows what the dynos calibration is crap is actually pretty close to what a 4.15 gt rolex car would put out, 350 whp for those(and thats actually a pretty beefy VE there around 110-115% if you calculate it) and require pretty much one off parts, you multiply that by 1.19(rounded up since its 18.5%) for the larger displacement and thats 416.5 hp. sure in the perfect world the heads can support it but they are probably getting pretty close to their limits for NA power even ported.
now a shop can undoubtedly POST a number, but the question is, is it actually making that? unless its one off parts and highly custom its highly unlikely and if they where we could do the calculations find it exceeds the possible VE numbers, and your definitely going to have to rev the engine up to hit a true 400 with a dry sump oiling system. kinda like what sg motorsports did with there setup, posted 372 hp dyno but that would mean the engine was running 130 or 140% VE at that power which isnt remotely possible from a engine with mostly off the shelf parts NA(forgot exact number been a few months since last time i actually calculated it.) or a NA engine period since the best all out race engines in the world are only hitting 120-125% for a very very limited rpm band.
I get it, and agree it's not practical. I'm not arguing that or anything. I just think the aftermarket support in 2013 has so much support for the DE motor that it is way more possible than it was in say 2008 when I first got my '03. I'd say all that needs to happen is someone with 20k or so burning a hole in their pockets to break 400whp on the DE NA.
Yeah, I've seen some of the crazy carbon fiber race plenums, and they can probably be close to as efficient as ITB/slide throttles. No readily available large or at least practical plenum exists that negates the advantages of ITB's for the VQ yet however; carbotron < ITBs (No idea how efficient NISMO race plenums are). You need a motorsports account for that kind of stuff, and obviously it's not possible for most people. Prices have come down considerably on Z's, and aftermarket parts for the DE motor though. I know you can't have the same parts for a 3.5 liter vs 4.15 liter. The parts I am talking about don't appeal to a wide range of people, I didn't list any specific part did I? I just listed types of parts. On the intake side, if you simplify the build down to ITB's (say Jenvey), and some custom fabricated plenum's, the only other thing that you might need to do custom is exhaust (parts-wise). Otherwise, the aftermarket support is already there for the DE (cams, stroker kits, heads, tuners, VQ-knowledge).
Yeah, I've seen some of the crazy carbon fiber race plenums, and they can probably be close to as efficient as ITB/slide throttles. No readily available large or at least practical plenum exists that negates the advantages of ITB's for the VQ yet however; carbotron < ITBs (No idea how efficient NISMO race plenums are). You need a motorsports account for that kind of stuff, and obviously it's not possible for most people. Prices have come down considerably on Z's, and aftermarket parts for the DE motor though. I know you can't have the same parts for a 3.5 liter vs 4.15 liter. The parts I am talking about don't appeal to a wide range of people, I didn't list any specific part did I? I just listed types of parts. On the intake side, if you simplify the build down to ITB's (say Jenvey), and some custom fabricated plenum's, the only other thing that you might need to do custom is exhaust (parts-wise). Otherwise, the aftermarket support is already there for the DE (cams, stroker kits, heads, tuners, VQ-knowledge).
Last edited by jerryd87; 09-16-2013 at 06:26 PM.
09-16-2013, 09:14 PM
#109
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I get it, and agree it's not practical. I'm not arguing that or anything. I just think the aftermarket support in 2013 has so much support for the DE motor that it is way more possible than it was in say 2008 when I first got my '03. I'd say all that needs to happen is someone with 20k or so burning a hole in their pockets to break 400whp on the DE NA.
Yeah, I've seen some of the crazy carbon fiber race plenums, and they can probably be close to as efficient as ITB/slide throttles. No readily available large or at least practical plenum exists that negates the advantages of ITB's for the VQ yet however; carbotron < ITBs (No idea how efficient NISMO race plenums are). You need a motorsports account for that kind of stuff, and obviously it's not possible for most people. Prices have come down considerably on Z's, and aftermarket parts for the DE motor though. I know you can't have the same parts for a 3.5 liter vs 4.15 liter. The parts I am talking about don't appeal to a wide range of people, I didn't list any specific part did I? I just listed types of parts. On the intake side, if you simplify the build down to ITB's (say Jenvey), and some custom fabricated plenum's, the only other thing that you might need to do custom is exhaust (parts-wise). Otherwise, the aftermarket support is already there for the DE (cams, stroker kits, heads, tuners, VQ-knowledge).
Yeah, I've seen some of the crazy carbon fiber race plenums, and they can probably be close to as efficient as ITB/slide throttles. No readily available large or at least practical plenum exists that negates the advantages of ITB's for the VQ yet however; carbotron < ITBs (No idea how efficient NISMO race plenums are). You need a motorsports account for that kind of stuff, and obviously it's not possible for most people. Prices have come down considerably on Z's, and aftermarket parts for the DE motor though. I know you can't have the same parts for a 3.5 liter vs 4.15 liter. The parts I am talking about don't appeal to a wide range of people, I didn't list any specific part did I? I just listed types of parts. On the intake side, if you simplify the build down to ITB's (say Jenvey), and some custom fabricated plenum's, the only other thing that you might need to do custom is exhaust (parts-wise). Otherwise, the aftermarket support is already there for the DE (cams, stroker kits, heads, tuners, VQ-knowledge).
09-16-2013, 10:17 PM
#110
what did they rev it too though? havnt seen a dyno but by the torque the engine made im going to make a educated guess of 8k-8500? and a perfect example of what i refer to as a bunch of one off parts, torque after drivetrain losses(they have engine power and torque listed not rear wheel) puts it right around 123% VE and really close to the max the engine could make, making the rest of the power from revs.
Already been done http://www.fontananissanracing.com/Tech_Corner.html
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