NA tune vs. FI: the dollar/HP story
06-30-2003, 07:46 PM
#1
NA tune vs. FI: the dollar/HP story
OK, as I sit here and read the various threads on the different paths of modifications, I wondered which would be the best way for me to go? Reliability questions not withstanding, I compare a typical NA tune without any internal engine mods to, say, the Procharger s/c setup. This is what I came up with (note: the numbers I'm using are conservative guesstimates; feel free to point out or correct anything. HP estimates are RWHP and parts are assumed to be DYI installed):
NA tune:
-CAI - $300 - 8hp
-exhaust - $700 - 15hp
-Crawford plenum - $400 - 15hp
-headers - $1200 - 15hp
-TSI ECM flash - $600 - 7hp (plus supposedly allowing all of the above to actually produce gains)
Total: $3200, 60hp = $53 per hp
FI tune:
-ATI Procharger (full kit) - $4800 - 140hp (assuming a 230hp baseline)
-no other mods needed.
Total: $4800, 140hp = $34 per hp
OK, is it just me or is this a no brainer? The Procharger is a better $/hp deal, is a single install and is only one thing with which issues may arrise. The NA route is overall more expensive per hp, has many things to install, not to mention you have to order parts from all over the place, send in ECM, etc. and gives you alot less overall power, though is likely more reliable. Of course you could go further with cams, pullys, etc. to get more power, but I don't think the $/hp ratio would change for the better and it's a hell of alot more work.
Comments?
NA tune:
-CAI - $300 - 8hp
-exhaust - $700 - 15hp
-Crawford plenum - $400 - 15hp
-headers - $1200 - 15hp
-TSI ECM flash - $600 - 7hp (plus supposedly allowing all of the above to actually produce gains)
Total: $3200, 60hp = $53 per hp
FI tune:
-ATI Procharger (full kit) - $4800 - 140hp (assuming a 230hp baseline)
-no other mods needed.
Total: $4800, 140hp = $34 per hp
OK, is it just me or is this a no brainer? The Procharger is a better $/hp deal, is a single install and is only one thing with which issues may arrise. The NA route is overall more expensive per hp, has many things to install, not to mention you have to order parts from all over the place, send in ECM, etc. and gives you alot less overall power, though is likely more reliable. Of course you could go further with cams, pullys, etc. to get more power, but I don't think the $/hp ratio would change for the better and it's a hell of alot more work.
Comments?
06-30-2003, 07:56 PM
#2
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You're definitely right in saying that FI blows away N/A in terms of economic analysis. And I even think you're being a little generous with your N/A hp gains.
I wouldn't use the Procharger as the only example though. This is the cheapest method of forced induction that we know of so far. I think a more fair price would be around $6000, especially since you're leaving out the hefty installation charges. All that N/A stuff you listed is a no brainer to install (headers being the possible exception), but most people don't want to tackle FI installs themselves, even though the Procharger should be easy.
There is always going to be a debate over FI and N/A. On the FI side, the power is limitless. On the N/A side, the power is linear and reliable. I think the best way to plan mods is to pick a target hp, pick a budget that you can afford, and find the most reasonable means to reach your target. The answers will be different for everyone, and that's how it's meant to be!
I like your analysis. Are you going to get the procharger?
I wouldn't use the Procharger as the only example though. This is the cheapest method of forced induction that we know of so far. I think a more fair price would be around $6000, especially since you're leaving out the hefty installation charges. All that N/A stuff you listed is a no brainer to install (headers being the possible exception), but most people don't want to tackle FI installs themselves, even though the Procharger should be easy.
There is always going to be a debate over FI and N/A. On the FI side, the power is limitless. On the N/A side, the power is linear and reliable. I think the best way to plan mods is to pick a target hp, pick a budget that you can afford, and find the most reasonable means to reach your target. The answers will be different for everyone, and that's how it's meant to be!
I like your analysis. Are you going to get the procharger?
06-30-2003, 08:01 PM
#3
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Everything for me spells ATI SC excpet for 2 big questions:
1. Reliability of motor with ATI and ATI quailty based on Mustang posts.
2. Smog legal for Calif, WHEn, I will not install a mod that does not meet smog.
Jeff
1. Reliability of motor with ATI and ATI quailty based on Mustang posts.
2. Smog legal for Calif, WHEn, I will not install a mod that does not meet smog.
Jeff
06-30-2003, 08:20 PM
#4
I am deffinitly leaning toward the Procharger at the current time, though it'll likely be a year before I can swing it, plus I want the car to be well broken in first. That will also give me plenty of time to see some long term reports from people that are ordering it now.
Installation on the Procharger should be a doable DIY, that's why I left out installation costs, though other FI systems are likely not DIY friendly. I wasn't really looking to compare all NA and FI installs, just the ones I was considering.
With the low boost and type of s/c, the Procharger setup should deliver quite linear and reliable power similar to what NA mods will give. Reliability to be determined, of course.
CA smog cert. is deffinitely a factor as well, as I plan to move there in a couple years. Last I heard, they were in the midst of getting it done.
My current assessment is to help me decide whether or not to invest in any other mods. It's alot easier to gradually add cheaper NA mods over time (I already have an intake), but if I know I'm going the Procharger route, I'll hold off on anything else and save up.
Installation on the Procharger should be a doable DIY, that's why I left out installation costs, though other FI systems are likely not DIY friendly. I wasn't really looking to compare all NA and FI installs, just the ones I was considering.
With the low boost and type of s/c, the Procharger setup should deliver quite linear and reliable power similar to what NA mods will give. Reliability to be determined, of course.
CA smog cert. is deffinitely a factor as well, as I plan to move there in a couple years. Last I heard, they were in the midst of getting it done.
My current assessment is to help me decide whether or not to invest in any other mods. It's alot easier to gradually add cheaper NA mods over time (I already have an intake), but if I know I'm going the Procharger route, I'll hold off on anything else and save up.
06-30-2003, 08:25 PM
#5
New Member
Yeah, it is interesting to think about. One thought that is left out is the fact that you can do the NA route a piece at a time. You can get moderate gains with money as you earn it. Dropping $5000-6000 at once is kinda hard for a lot of people to go the FI route.
To me, you need to make up your mind, and plan out what you are going to do. If you just want moderately more power, stick with the boltons. If you want FI, save your money for it, cause you know it will be a sizeable amount of money. Plan for FI in the beginning, if you are going that way. Personally, I will probably save my money for FI, except maybe for a purchase of an exhaust like borla to give the FI room to breathe. That FI purchase won't be anytime soon for me, if I have FI next year at this time, I am happy.
To me, you need to make up your mind, and plan out what you are going to do. If you just want moderately more power, stick with the boltons. If you want FI, save your money for it, cause you know it will be a sizeable amount of money. Plan for FI in the beginning, if you are going that way. Personally, I will probably save my money for FI, except maybe for a purchase of an exhaust like borla to give the FI room to breathe. That FI purchase won't be anytime soon for me, if I have FI next year at this time, I am happy.
06-30-2003, 08:48 PM
#6
Mind you that the 7hp ECU gain is on a bone stock Z with no mods.. generally with those heavy bolt ons, you should be looking forward to a few more ponies than just 7.
and with that ATI procharger, i sure hope you're going to do some further tuning than just slapping it on.. FMU kits generally run VERY rich to be on the safe side, and thats not making your engine run efficently.. thats just brute force getting power.. you want to do it the right way.... with a correct fuel management system...
well. here's my take on NA vs FI...
NA is great, you get a 'normal' car for cruising and some power here and there.. i've riden in a fully decked out NA Z and its pretty good.. like how the Z SHOULD have felt from factory... but once you have boost. its hard to go back... just knowing the technological processes of knowing those blowers pushing air in and hearing it spool is amazing.... and having it before and after is really a night and day experience (more so on a turbo than S/C...) i just sold my blower on the max, and man. is that car ****-*** slow now.
i think driveability wise, an S/C would have more wear on the engine since its 'always' on... with a turbo you really have to get the exhaust gases flowing for your turbo to spool... but with the turbo you get the full pressure nearly as soon as you punch the gas pedal.. S/Cs you have to wait almost until near redline to get the max pressure, and by then. its time to shift.
with everyone buying in on every bandwagon there is right now for this car. i dont think dropping $4k is alot for some people. seeing how they can drop $3k so fast on rims, they can just save up and get the blower... but i think people should step back, see what their options are before buying something that is an INVESTMENT in the car such as a FI kit... you just cant throw on boost and expect the car to run just as good as stock. you have to relearn your driving habits, and know what your engine is doing so you dont mess anything up... just adds a little more excitement (and headache) to the main scheme of things...
and with that ATI procharger, i sure hope you're going to do some further tuning than just slapping it on.. FMU kits generally run VERY rich to be on the safe side, and thats not making your engine run efficently.. thats just brute force getting power.. you want to do it the right way.... with a correct fuel management system...
well. here's my take on NA vs FI...
NA is great, you get a 'normal' car for cruising and some power here and there.. i've riden in a fully decked out NA Z and its pretty good.. like how the Z SHOULD have felt from factory... but once you have boost. its hard to go back... just knowing the technological processes of knowing those blowers pushing air in and hearing it spool is amazing.... and having it before and after is really a night and day experience (more so on a turbo than S/C...) i just sold my blower on the max, and man. is that car ****-*** slow now.
i think driveability wise, an S/C would have more wear on the engine since its 'always' on... with a turbo you really have to get the exhaust gases flowing for your turbo to spool... but with the turbo you get the full pressure nearly as soon as you punch the gas pedal.. S/Cs you have to wait almost until near redline to get the max pressure, and by then. its time to shift.
with everyone buying in on every bandwagon there is right now for this car. i dont think dropping $4k is alot for some people. seeing how they can drop $3k so fast on rims, they can just save up and get the blower... but i think people should step back, see what their options are before buying something that is an INVESTMENT in the car such as a FI kit... you just cant throw on boost and expect the car to run just as good as stock. you have to relearn your driving habits, and know what your engine is doing so you dont mess anything up... just adds a little more excitement (and headache) to the main scheme of things...
06-30-2003, 10:04 PM
#7
Registered User
I think you all have summed it up quite well. The only thing I'd add (mainly a reinfocement of what's already been said) is that NA seems to be less expensive for modest, possibly more reliable gains (even though the $/HP may be more), while the FI seems to be best for those that want very high HP gains.
One other factor is how the torque/HP curve is changed. For some people, NA may be preferable because the torque curve will generally remain fairly flat and smooth, whereas the FI route (depending on the design) may cause more drastic changes to the torque curve that some racers might find unsettling.
In all cases, like everyone has said, the best bet is to do lots of research before buying anything so you know what your goals are and the different ways of getting there. By understanding the tradeoffs of the different routes of gaining power, you can pick the route that works best for you.
-D'oh!
One other factor is how the torque/HP curve is changed. For some people, NA may be preferable because the torque curve will generally remain fairly flat and smooth, whereas the FI route (depending on the design) may cause more drastic changes to the torque curve that some racers might find unsettling.
In all cases, like everyone has said, the best bet is to do lots of research before buying anything so you know what your goals are and the different ways of getting there. By understanding the tradeoffs of the different routes of gaining power, you can pick the route that works best for you.
-D'oh!
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07-01-2003, 04:01 AM
#8
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Ok, I am going to take a different route with this post. I am concerned with FI reliability and I think most people that buy a new Z dont want blow it up.
My question is how common an experience is it for someone to blow an high compresion engine running 7lbs of boost? Do you know people first hand that had this problem? I read a lot of reviews of ATI SC on stangs. Complaints related to belts, leaking, brackets, customer service were there yes but I never read a "I just blew up my motor" post. Are we really sure the ATI SC at 7 lbs boost will reduce engine life? If yes, give me examples of cars with simular SC set ups and compression. Lets deal with real data.
Trust me I want HP as much as the other guy but it seems people just post over and over again about reliability problems with SC's. I know Toyota and Nissan have sold SC's on their products before with warranties and I assume those cars have high compression engines too so what gives?
Jeff
My question is how common an experience is it for someone to blow an high compresion engine running 7lbs of boost? Do you know people first hand that had this problem? I read a lot of reviews of ATI SC on stangs. Complaints related to belts, leaking, brackets, customer service were there yes but I never read a "I just blew up my motor" post. Are we really sure the ATI SC at 7 lbs boost will reduce engine life? If yes, give me examples of cars with simular SC set ups and compression. Lets deal with real data.
Trust me I want HP as much as the other guy but it seems people just post over and over again about reliability problems with SC's. I know Toyota and Nissan have sold SC's on their products before with warranties and I assume those cars have high compression engines too so what gives?
Jeff
07-01-2003, 06:20 AM
#9
Thanks for all the replys. With everyone jumping on every bandwagon that comes along, as it was put, it's good to get people thinking about what they're doing and where it's taking them. For me, the Procharger seems like the easy route to high gains, but may lead to further, more expensive tuning and tweaking for it to have ideal operation. I'm going to reserve comment on reliability since it is a new s/c; we'll see. That's why I'm sitting back and waiting.
In the end, I may end up going the NA route. I won't have nearly the gains, but likely more balanced and well rounded ones that run little risk of being harful to the car in the long run.
Hell, I haven't even got my car broken in yet, so I don't even know the power it has stock. The idea of a s/c is really enticing, but in the end, I may not even feel I need it. Still, it would be cool to be able to blow away an E46 M3with the s/c; you'd maybe only get competitive with current NA mods.
In the end, I may end up going the NA route. I won't have nearly the gains, but likely more balanced and well rounded ones that run little risk of being harful to the car in the long run.
Hell, I haven't even got my car broken in yet, so I don't even know the power it has stock. The idea of a s/c is really enticing, but in the end, I may not even feel I need it. Still, it would be cool to be able to blow away an E46 M3with the s/c; you'd maybe only get competitive with current NA mods.
07-01-2003, 11:28 AM
#10
the VQ is a great engine. even with the slightly higher compression, boost is attainable with a stock motor, but i really would want to push my luck with anything over 7psi (although i have hit 9+) there's no realy point in getting something fast, its no longer enjoyable to drive around town...
yes. S/Cs you have to deal with belt shreddings, oil seals, making sure your FMU is properly setup so you get enough fuel for the air with a hobbs switch or anything.. etc etc... but same goes to the turbo.. except for the belt shredding...
Zland: there have been MANY cases with the maximas with S/Cs... check out Maxima.org and click on their Boosted Section.. you can learn alot from those guys.. they're pretty smart (or you can pm MardiGraxMax, who lurks on this forum from time to time.. he's in the 11s with this S/C maxima)
HP per dollar best bet would probably be NOS, but eh.. that's cheating ;P
yes. S/Cs you have to deal with belt shreddings, oil seals, making sure your FMU is properly setup so you get enough fuel for the air with a hobbs switch or anything.. etc etc... but same goes to the turbo.. except for the belt shredding...
Zland: there have been MANY cases with the maximas with S/Cs... check out Maxima.org and click on their Boosted Section.. you can learn alot from those guys.. they're pretty smart (or you can pm MardiGraxMax, who lurks on this forum from time to time.. he's in the 11s with this S/C maxima)
HP per dollar best bet would probably be NOS, but eh.. that's cheating ;P
07-01-2003, 11:45 AM
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Re: NA tune vs. FI: the dollar/HP story
Originally posted by MustGoFastR
OK, as I sit here and read the various threads on the different paths of modifications, I wondered which would be the best way for me to go? Reliability questions not withstanding, I compare a typical NA tune without any internal engine mods to, say, the Procharger s/c setup. This is what I came up with (note: the numbers I'm using are conservative guesstimates; feel free to point out or correct anything. HP estimates are RWHP and parts are assumed to be DYI installed):
NA tune:
-CAI - $300 - 8hp
-exhaust - $700 - 15hp
-Crawford plenum - $400 - 15hp
-headers - $1200 - 15hp
-TSI ECM flash - $600 - 7hp (plus supposedly allowing all of the above to actually produce gains)
Total: $3200, 60hp = $53 per hp
FI tune:
-ATI Procharger (full kit) - $4800 - 140hp (assuming a 230hp baseline)
-no other mods needed.
Total: $4800, 140hp = $34 per hp
OK, is it just me or is this a no brainer? The Procharger is a better $/hp deal, is a single install and is only one thing with which issues may arrise. The NA route is overall more expensive per hp, has many things to install, not to mention you have to order parts from all over the place, send in ECM, etc. and gives you alot less overall power, though is likely more reliable. Of course you could go further with cams, pullys, etc. to get more power, but I don't think the $/hp ratio would change for the better and it's a hell of alot more work.
Comments?
OK, as I sit here and read the various threads on the different paths of modifications, I wondered which would be the best way for me to go? Reliability questions not withstanding, I compare a typical NA tune without any internal engine mods to, say, the Procharger s/c setup. This is what I came up with (note: the numbers I'm using are conservative guesstimates; feel free to point out or correct anything. HP estimates are RWHP and parts are assumed to be DYI installed):
NA tune:
-CAI - $300 - 8hp
-exhaust - $700 - 15hp
-Crawford plenum - $400 - 15hp
-headers - $1200 - 15hp
-TSI ECM flash - $600 - 7hp (plus supposedly allowing all of the above to actually produce gains)
Total: $3200, 60hp = $53 per hp
FI tune:
-ATI Procharger (full kit) - $4800 - 140hp (assuming a 230hp baseline)
-no other mods needed.
Total: $4800, 140hp = $34 per hp
OK, is it just me or is this a no brainer? The Procharger is a better $/hp deal, is a single install and is only one thing with which issues may arrise. The NA route is overall more expensive per hp, has many things to install, not to mention you have to order parts from all over the place, send in ECM, etc. and gives you alot less overall power, though is likely more reliable. Of course you could go further with cams, pullys, etc. to get more power, but I don't think the $/hp ratio would change for the better and it's a hell of alot more work.
Comments?
and yes I can say that because my friend works and does nitrous refills and I get them for free... so dont tell me about "you have to refill the bottle"
07-01-2003, 01:38 PM
#12
Registered User
This seems to be a good post so far. Here's a couple comments i have to throw in.
Any big hp mod (fi or advanced NA tuning) is going to compromise reliability in the long run. You gotta pay to play. With a well tuned set up, though, you should be seeing good engine life w/ whatever you do.
also, keep in mind that the NA mods that are listed are not cumulative. If you get 5 hp from a CAI and 8 hp from an exhaust, you may only get 10 or 11 hp from both. Also, about NA tuning, top secret is coming out w/ some advanced kits capable of putting out big numbers. High compression pistons are also available. It is possible to have some big power with NA, but it's not cheap, nothing is.
Another note about FI. If you go w/ TC or SC, you're going to need a new clutch, and i dont believe installation was mentioned earlier either.
Anyway, with either route you go, keep in mind that if you want big power, you're going to have to pay for it. But if you're a car nut, like most of us, it'll be worth it.
Any big hp mod (fi or advanced NA tuning) is going to compromise reliability in the long run. You gotta pay to play. With a well tuned set up, though, you should be seeing good engine life w/ whatever you do.
also, keep in mind that the NA mods that are listed are not cumulative. If you get 5 hp from a CAI and 8 hp from an exhaust, you may only get 10 or 11 hp from both. Also, about NA tuning, top secret is coming out w/ some advanced kits capable of putting out big numbers. High compression pistons are also available. It is possible to have some big power with NA, but it's not cheap, nothing is.
Another note about FI. If you go w/ TC or SC, you're going to need a new clutch, and i dont believe installation was mentioned earlier either.
Anyway, with either route you go, keep in mind that if you want big power, you're going to have to pay for it. But if you're a car nut, like most of us, it'll be worth it.
Last edited by TJZ; 07-01-2003 at 02:48 PM.
07-01-2003, 04:53 PM
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The ProCharger _sounds_ like a good thing, probably _is_ a good thing, but nobody around here has got one yet, and before I shell out ~5k to get one on, I definitely want to talk to somebody who knows. The local distributor hasn't even seen one.
In the mean time, headers and an exhaust upgrade ought to work just fine, both before and after a blower. Probably ought to do something with the brakes, too.
Z33
In the mean time, headers and an exhaust upgrade ought to work just fine, both before and after a blower. Probably ought to do something with the brakes, too.
Z33
07-02-2003, 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by Z33
The ProCharger _sounds_ like a good thing, probably _is_ a good thing, but nobody around here has got one yet, and before I shell out ~5k to get one on, I definitely want to talk to somebody who knows. The local distributor hasn't even seen one.
In the mean time, headers and an exhaust upgrade ought to work just fine, both before and after a blower. Probably ought to do something with the brakes, too.
Z33
The ProCharger _sounds_ like a good thing, probably _is_ a good thing, but nobody around here has got one yet, and before I shell out ~5k to get one on, I definitely want to talk to somebody who knows. The local distributor hasn't even seen one.
In the mean time, headers and an exhaust upgrade ought to work just fine, both before and after a blower. Probably ought to do something with the brakes, too.
Z33
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