310.7 whp and 261 ft. lbs. Naturally Aspirated 350Z
09-27-2003, 09:13 AM
#81
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LSD
The weight DOES make a difference because the Mustang Dyno actually simulates the weight of the vehicle with air or hydraulic pressure on the dyno wheels which presses upward on the tires. This is a concept that I do not fully understand and raises other questions.
We actually tried entering different weights of the same vehicle and it did produce figures that were a few hp different. Some dyno operators take a good guess at vehicle weight while others make the effort to look at the placard on the vehicle or some other guide and go from there. I believe the GVW is a fully loaded car(not sure) and they would then subtract the max load capacity.
There are several other variables that can be used with the Mustang dyno.
I weighed my car with me in it and it was right at 3400 lbs which I think was a few pounds heavy due to innacuracies with our scale(its a big truck scale and VERY old). Do keep in mind that my car is a base model which supposedly is a bump over 3100. Oh well.
Richard 350Z
You usually can tell the operator of the dyno to type whatever you want it to say on the printout so list the mods next time so u can post it w/mods and show others.
The weight DOES make a difference because the Mustang Dyno actually simulates the weight of the vehicle with air or hydraulic pressure on the dyno wheels which presses upward on the tires. This is a concept that I do not fully understand and raises other questions.
We actually tried entering different weights of the same vehicle and it did produce figures that were a few hp different. Some dyno operators take a good guess at vehicle weight while others make the effort to look at the placard on the vehicle or some other guide and go from there. I believe the GVW is a fully loaded car(not sure) and they would then subtract the max load capacity.
There are several other variables that can be used with the Mustang dyno.
I weighed my car with me in it and it was right at 3400 lbs which I think was a few pounds heavy due to innacuracies with our scale(its a big truck scale and VERY old). Do keep in mind that my car is a base model which supposedly is a bump over 3100. Oh well.
Richard 350Z
You usually can tell the operator of the dyno to type whatever you want it to say on the printout so list the mods next time so u can post it w/mods and show others.
09-27-2003, 10:17 AM
#82
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I don't believe the numbers I put out at the show myself. So did some research! Here's what I found out.
1. Mustang dyno's always put the most hp out.
2. Might have been SAE corrected. So it might have been an estimated crank hp reading not wheel hp. It is estimated due to the fact that you can't measure crank hp unless you used an engine dyno.
3. Which gear did they run it at? Don't remember myself! That will also make a big difference in hp.
4. The most accurate reading will be on a two roller system or a Dynapack where your wheels come off and hooked up straight to the dyno. (Mustang is a one roller)
5. Last fact is that I don't really care what I put out. Just posting because saw others post hp dynos. Car is fast as hell to me. So bottom line is if you're happy who cares. The sheet is definitely cool to have though!
1. Mustang dyno's always put the most hp out.
2. Might have been SAE corrected. So it might have been an estimated crank hp reading not wheel hp. It is estimated due to the fact that you can't measure crank hp unless you used an engine dyno.
3. Which gear did they run it at? Don't remember myself! That will also make a big difference in hp.
4. The most accurate reading will be on a two roller system or a Dynapack where your wheels come off and hooked up straight to the dyno. (Mustang is a one roller)
5. Last fact is that I don't really care what I put out. Just posting because saw others post hp dynos. Car is fast as hell to me. So bottom line is if you're happy who cares. The sheet is definitely cool to have though!
09-27-2003, 10:24 AM
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Very well spoken. I'm excited for you on the mods. I absolutely cannot wait to get my test pipes on. The crank HP theory sounds exactly right, that would be almost exactly right with my civic. That would put you with 20hp over stock which IMO is excellent.
09-28-2003, 08:19 AM
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Interesting... if you take THESE numbers... make a ratio... then work this Zs number - You'll find a number of 264rwhp. This is FAR more realistic. HIGH even for the mods, though reasonable.
I really don't think we're going to be able to draw any conclusions until these guys hit another (non-Mustang) dyno and run their cars and a stock Z for some comparative numbers.
BTW, my Crawford Plenum may be shipping this week and my install shop is going to try to get me in earlier for the cam and pulley work. With any luck, I'll have a dyno on my car earlier than expected.
09-28-2003, 10:15 AM
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"Rant On" Honestly guys - who cares? Different types of dynos, different days....none of it is relative.
I have spent tons of dyno time with a veriey of my cars over the years, on everything from a Mustang to a Dyno Dynamics, to a Dynojet. One thing we have always been most careful about is using the same dyno at the same location for the same car, regardless of when its been done. So, for example, my old Z has always been tested on a Mustang in ground, so that is what we have stuck with. I have not found these dynos to bemore or less accurate than others - only in a relative sense (I mean, who is to say any of them are ever "correct"? There are simply WAY too many variables involved, and I personally know each type can be manipulated to give virtually any result you want).
In short, if the same car on the same dyno showed more than a 4% or 5% difference in power, then it can be assumed there was a difference in power. As an example, if a stock 350Z baselined 230 hp and 230 torque on a Dynojet Model 248C at XYZ Motorsports on day 1, and then after a variety of mods made 260 hp and 260 lbs feet of torque on that same dyno, it can reasonably be assumed that the car is now making more horespower and torque. Is it 30 hp and 30 lb/feet more? Who knows - not the point. Comapring these numbers to someone in Anchorage who uses a Dyo Dynamics Dyno is about a useless as **** on a bull, even if the guy in Anchorage has the same year car, same production date, same color, wears boxers like you, etc. etc.......the change is only relative if the environment is kept as relatively stable as possible. The real benefit from people posting these tests is NOT the peak number achieved - its the percentage of gain over their baseline. Once we all start accepting that, the information gleaned from such a test becomes much more useful. I do not find it surprising, nor alarming that a NA Z reaches 301, 310 or even 330 hp at the wheels - it is not the peak number that matters to me at all (nor should it matter to you) - it is all about the gain that was achieved over your baseline.
Rant off
I just don't want to see this become the Club Si of the Z world......
Adam
I have spent tons of dyno time with a veriey of my cars over the years, on everything from a Mustang to a Dyno Dynamics, to a Dynojet. One thing we have always been most careful about is using the same dyno at the same location for the same car, regardless of when its been done. So, for example, my old Z has always been tested on a Mustang in ground, so that is what we have stuck with. I have not found these dynos to bemore or less accurate than others - only in a relative sense (I mean, who is to say any of them are ever "correct"? There are simply WAY too many variables involved, and I personally know each type can be manipulated to give virtually any result you want).
In short, if the same car on the same dyno showed more than a 4% or 5% difference in power, then it can be assumed there was a difference in power. As an example, if a stock 350Z baselined 230 hp and 230 torque on a Dynojet Model 248C at XYZ Motorsports on day 1, and then after a variety of mods made 260 hp and 260 lbs feet of torque on that same dyno, it can reasonably be assumed that the car is now making more horespower and torque. Is it 30 hp and 30 lb/feet more? Who knows - not the point. Comapring these numbers to someone in Anchorage who uses a Dyo Dynamics Dyno is about a useless as **** on a bull, even if the guy in Anchorage has the same year car, same production date, same color, wears boxers like you, etc. etc.......the change is only relative if the environment is kept as relatively stable as possible. The real benefit from people posting these tests is NOT the peak number achieved - its the percentage of gain over their baseline. Once we all start accepting that, the information gleaned from such a test becomes much more useful. I do not find it surprising, nor alarming that a NA Z reaches 301, 310 or even 330 hp at the wheels - it is not the peak number that matters to me at all (nor should it matter to you) - it is all about the gain that was achieved over your baseline.
Rant off
I just don't want to see this become the Club Si of the Z world......
Adam
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 09-28-2003 at 04:56 PM.
09-28-2003, 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by Z1 Performance
I just don't want to see this become the Club Si of the Z world......
Adam
I just don't want to see this become the Club Si of the Z world......
Adam
what's so funny about that is there's an ultimate ricer/mag racer at my school that has a civic with a huge club si window decal
09-28-2003, 07:37 PM
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Adam... you are so right! Unfortunately, few here want to subscribe to that view. I did just what you describe... got a stock dyno and a dyno after my Borla install... using the exact same location, the exact same dyno, and even the exact same dyno technician.
When I showed this netted a relative increase, on my car, of 18rwhp SAE-corrected, I was debunked for it being done a few months after the initial dyno and that environmental conditions (temperature, Barometric pressure, etc) were different.
Of course, this is why you use SAE corrected figures...
In any case, I believe the Mossy numbers are pretty valid because they did everything in a very controlled way on the same dyno.
But there is still benefit to the dyno test being proposed. It seems to me the biggest issue is that we don't have numbers for a stock Z that dynoed on the Mustang dyno to compare to, so we don't know the approximate gain on Richard, Greg, or Dat's cars. On the dyno day, if a base Z is measured, the others can then run producings an approximate measure of the power gains.
I'm looking forward to the results!
When I showed this netted a relative increase, on my car, of 18rwhp SAE-corrected, I was debunked for it being done a few months after the initial dyno and that environmental conditions (temperature, Barometric pressure, etc) were different.
Of course, this is why you use SAE corrected figures...In any case, I believe the Mossy numbers are pretty valid because they did everything in a very controlled way on the same dyno.
But there is still benefit to the dyno test being proposed. It seems to me the biggest issue is that we don't have numbers for a stock Z that dynoed on the Mustang dyno to compare to, so we don't know the approximate gain on Richard, Greg, or Dat's cars. On the dyno day, if a base Z is measured, the others can then run producings an approximate measure of the power gains.
I'm looking forward to the results!
09-29-2003, 05:57 AM
#89
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Well I am doing my baseline this AM (I forget what kind of dyno this shop uses, as its been awhile since I was there), but will post the results a bit later on.
From there, GruppeM inake will be put on, and dynoed again this week (time permitting)
From there, GruppeM inake will be put on, and dynoed again this week (time permitting)
09-29-2003, 11:32 AM
#90
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OK guys - basline was done today on an inground Dynojet 248.
Did 2 runs, car was in the shop with hood up, and a mighty big fan going, temp was about 70 degrees give or take, I was wearing jeans and a t shirt, and decided to not wear a hat today
Anyway, results were:
Run 1 - 236.2 hp, 229.3 torque
let the car cool for 10 minutes, hood oepn, fan blowing.
Run 2 - 240.9, torque 235.5
Car is an '04 Enthusiast, stock wheels and tires - only mods on the car are suspension related, as well as an ARC radiator shroud.
Did 2 runs, car was in the shop with hood up, and a mighty big fan going, temp was about 70 degrees give or take, I was wearing jeans and a t shirt, and decided to not wear a hat today
Anyway, results were:
Run 1 - 236.2 hp, 229.3 torque
let the car cool for 10 minutes, hood oepn, fan blowing.
Run 2 - 240.9, torque 235.5
Car is an '04 Enthusiast, stock wheels and tires - only mods on the car are suspension related, as well as an ARC radiator shroud.
09-29-2003, 12:33 PM
#92
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yes, intake will go on, maybe this week, aybe not (going to do the front lip at the same time, since the bumper has to come off anyway - all depends if the lip is here in time), and we'll dyno again
From there, we will do the exhaust (Fujitsubo or ARC - not sure which yet)
From there, we will do the exhaust (Fujitsubo or ARC - not sure which yet)
10-06-2003, 10:16 AM
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Someone posted Mustang Dyno numbers for a Z with only Borla TD and CAI in this thread...
I extrapolated on that data to come up with the following that seems very plausible for the mods in question...
from other thread...
Sure is, Jeff... and, I would guess, they both run about the same amount higher than a comparable DynoJet. Which one is more correct???? Who's to say?
What I think is important is how much difference each one registers between one set of mods and the next. So what do we have here?
With only a Borla TD and Injen CAI, dmayzn logged 257.5 rwhp on the Mustang Dyno. With pretty much the same set up, I logged right at 245rwhp on a DynoJet and, as I recall, this is typical (well, maybe 1-3rwhp low) for a Z sporting the Borla and CAI. So, the Mustang dyno ran 12.5rwhp higher, or 5.2% higher than the DynoJet.
If we go back to Richard's dyno run of 301rwhp on the Mossy (Mustang) Dyno day and adjust it accordingly (301rwhp / 1.052%), we get a comparable DynoJet rating of 286rwhp.
Ultimately, we want to look at the difference for Richard's Z, so....
Mustang Dyno = 301rwhp - 257.5rwhp = 43.5 rwhp gain
DynoJet Dyno (approx) = 286rwhp - 245 rwhp = 41 rwhp gain
So, either way you slice it, it looks like the mods Richard and Greg did (beyond the Borla exhaust and CAI) are good for about 40-45rwhp...
Add in the Borla and CAI and the whole package is likely good for about 60 rwhp over stock or 360 hp at the crank! WOOHOO
which to me sounds very reasonable! I hope I get that much when I make my changes!
I extrapolated on that data to come up with the following that seems very plausible for the mods in question...
from other thread...
Isnt this the same type dyno that was used at Mossy Nissan that got such high hp pulls and caused quite a stir in which several people questioned the hp of that dyno?
What I think is important is how much difference each one registers between one set of mods and the next. So what do we have here?
With only a Borla TD and Injen CAI, dmayzn logged 257.5 rwhp on the Mustang Dyno. With pretty much the same set up, I logged right at 245rwhp on a DynoJet and, as I recall, this is typical (well, maybe 1-3rwhp low) for a Z sporting the Borla and CAI. So, the Mustang dyno ran 12.5rwhp higher, or 5.2% higher than the DynoJet.
If we go back to Richard's dyno run of 301rwhp on the Mossy (Mustang) Dyno day and adjust it accordingly (301rwhp / 1.052%), we get a comparable DynoJet rating of 286rwhp.
Ultimately, we want to look at the difference for Richard's Z, so....
Mustang Dyno = 301rwhp - 257.5rwhp = 43.5 rwhp gain
DynoJet Dyno (approx) = 286rwhp - 245 rwhp = 41 rwhp gain
So, either way you slice it, it looks like the mods Richard and Greg did (beyond the Borla exhaust and CAI) are good for about 40-45rwhp...
Add in the Borla and CAI and the whole package is likely good for about 60 rwhp over stock or 360 hp at the crank! WOOHOO
which to me sounds very reasonable! I hope I get that much when I make my changes!
10-06-2003, 11:56 AM
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286 versus 301, is all in the dyno....
Still good numbers Rich.... and you can still say your pushing 300+ hp to the wheels its all in perspective...
Still good numbers Rich.... and you can still say your pushing 300+ hp to the wheels its all in perspective...
Is it worth spending the money on...
Cams ($1300),
Headers ($600),
True Dual Exhaust ($650),
CAI ($225),
Pulleys ($325),
and lightweight flywheel ($400)
+ Install ($800-$1000???)
...to net approximately 60rwhp?
Obviously, I think so 'cause I'm working on these + a few more NA mods to be installed next week.
Sure, the ATI will net more overall power, but at about $1000-$1500 more and at the risk of being less reliable than NA power.
10-06-2003, 12:08 PM
#97
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[this thread... Mustang Dyno = 301rwhp - 257.5rwhp = 43.5 rwhp gain
DynoJet Dyno (approx) = 286rwhp - 245 rwhp = 41 rwhp gain
So, either way you slice it, it looks like the mods Richard and Greg did (beyond the Borla exhaust and CAI) are good for about 40-45rwhp...
[/B]
DynoJet Dyno (approx) = 286rwhp - 245 rwhp = 41 rwhp gain
So, either way you slice it, it looks like the mods Richard and Greg did (beyond the Borla exhaust and CAI) are good for about 40-45rwhp...
[/B]
10-06-2003, 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by mcduck
Is it worth spending the money on...
Cams ($1300),
Headers ($600),
True Dual Exhaust ($650),
CAI ($225),
Pulleys ($325),
and lightweight flywheel ($400)
+ Install ($800-$1000???)
...to net approximately 60rwhp?
Obviously, I think so 'cause I'm working on these + a few more NA mods to be installed next week.
Sure, the ATI will net more overall power, but at about $1000-$1500 more and at the risk of being less reliable than NA power.
Is it worth spending the money on...
Cams ($1300),
Headers ($600),
True Dual Exhaust ($650),
CAI ($225),
Pulleys ($325),
and lightweight flywheel ($400)
+ Install ($800-$1000???)
...to net approximately 60rwhp?
Obviously, I think so 'cause I'm working on these + a few more NA mods to be installed next week.
Sure, the ATI will net more overall power, but at about $1000-$1500 more and at the risk of being less reliable than NA power.
...thanks!
10-06-2003, 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by Redline350zTour
I'm going that same route but, adding grounding kit, plenum & higher compression pistons from SGP. Don't know if I should go with the pistons. How much HP should I expect with the 11.5:1 pistons? Newbie here ...thanks!
I'm going that same route but, adding grounding kit, plenum & higher compression pistons from SGP. Don't know if I should go with the pistons. How much HP should I expect with the 11.5:1 pistons? Newbie here
...thanks!
10-06-2003, 02:40 PM
#100
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I would not bother with the pistons myself unless
1. you run standalone
2. live near someone who can reflash your factory ecu.
3. plan on doing rods (complete waste of money otherwise IMHO).
I personally think you could even delete the headers from the above recipe, come out way ahead in terms of dollars, and not give up much hp across the rev range.
For our Z, we will are doing an NA buildup, with particular emphasis on the heads and cams, as well as engine management. While I like the idea of a header on this car, so far I am woefully unimpressed with the gains given the cost of the part as well as the install (granted, I am forunate enough to have staff here to do all my installs, but nevertheless, I dont see the bang for the buck quotient being there from any of the current designs. It is important to note though that there really have not been conclusive tests one way or the other on the various headers, so I am merely going off the info I have seen to date.
1. you run standalone
2. live near someone who can reflash your factory ecu.
3. plan on doing rods (complete waste of money otherwise IMHO).
I personally think you could even delete the headers from the above recipe, come out way ahead in terms of dollars, and not give up much hp across the rev range.
For our Z, we will are doing an NA buildup, with particular emphasis on the heads and cams, as well as engine management. While I like the idea of a header on this car, so far I am woefully unimpressed with the gains given the cost of the part as well as the install (granted, I am forunate enough to have staff here to do all my installs, but nevertheless, I dont see the bang for the buck quotient being there from any of the current designs. It is important to note though that there really have not been conclusive tests one way or the other on the various headers, so I am merely going off the info I have seen to date.