mcduck

Okay, guys and gals. I think I am on track to having an accurate model for how multiple mods play together.

But... I need help verifying and tweeking my program. What I need are a few of the regulars here who have multiple drivetrain mods (4 or more) to post the following information for me so I can test the figures:

1 - your baseline dyno numbers (if not purely stock, indicate which mods where already on the car when you baselined)

2 - your final dyno numbers with all mods listed

3 - a list of your mods (must include type AND manufacturer)


This whole effort came about because my dyno numbers were coming lower than they should for the mods I have added. After much research, I've concluded they are close to right. Just a little low which I think is a result of the TS ECU program not being dialed in just right (curse being on the east coast!). The balance of my disappointment can be summed up in one mod, I think... headers.

It is clear the biggest shortfall on my car power-wise is having Borla headers (almost no gains) vs Nismo headers (very good gains). I am confident if I spent the money to change headers and ad the JWT flywheel, my power numbers would be on par with Jeff@Performance Nissan. Beyond this, our cars are virtually identically modded. He gets a little more power from the RT cats vs Crawford, but I get it back with the Borla Exhaust vs. Nismo

ANYWHO.... I'm getting way off topic. If I can get a dozen or so people to post the information I'm asking for above, I should be able to verify my analysis.

NOTE: What I'm determining is how many mods act together. The figures I'm coming up with break down when you use only one or two mods. Essentially, what I have found though extensive research of dynos here and other 350Z websites is that the sum of the whole never adds up to the parts. So, one or two mods will add more power than those same mods will contribute on a car with many mods. They still contribute, just to a lesser degree.

What I hope to post here are figures so Z owners can develop a realistic expectation when putting many mods on their cars.

Now get me that information, people!!!

mcduck

Oh... BTW, I'm not asking for dyno chart verifications. I know who is on the forums regularly and will take these individuals at their word. I'm assuming that you have dynoed if you post the information.

It really does no one any good to post false information for this effort since the ultimate result should be something all can use.

Oh, one more thing... strictly NA for this. I haven't worked FI set ups into my program yet ... one step at a time.

boyze

this should help

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....threadid=53805

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

good post man..I'll get my new results Tuesday to you.

PhoenixINX

Andy -

Interesting ideas here, but honestly... are you hunting for 2-3 hp????

I haven't any clue how much better or worse Doug's flow than the RTs... if anything +/- 1-2. Same thing for the NISMO vs. the Borla TD...

You big factor is the headers, the borlas aren't bad for torque on a stock cam'd motor.

You saw mjedens post about switching from NISMO headers to Dougs with him Tomei 268s, did you not? The gains were AMAZING downlow and equally impressive across the board.

btw - What's your af through your entire pull...? Can you post this?

Thanks

mcduck

boyze.... I appreciate the note, but that thread does not help too much. I did start by looking at this list, but it is missing 2 very crucial elements for my analysis. One, it has no baseline figures. I don't really think it is important what the final dyno reads... what I'm trying to quantify are the changes between baseline and final. Second, the listings here say what kind of mods, but not what brand. As has been demonstrated in the past, there is a very big difference in specific components (for example, Crawford Headers vs Nismo Headers vs. Borla Headers and so forth)

speaking of that...
Umm... no... I am confident I know why my car is not making the power I want it to. Rather than go back to capture the few horsepower I could by swapping out brands of mods, I have bigger things... much bigger things... in my future! I was simply doing this as a service to this forum.

Which is exactly why this needs to be done... no one seems to have a clue on the differences. I don't think my model will be 100% perfect, but it will be a lot better than people sitting around guessing what they might get.

If members posts information as I requested above, I will better be able to show the contributions different components on a heavily modded NA car. I'm sure from my experience of the gains for certain components are there, be they Crawford or other manufacturers, but how they "stack" is in a bit vague

I just want to give others a tool to work with to get where they want so they will not be disappointed like I was. Basically, for all my mods, I am making only 4 more rwhp at peak and about the same throughout the powerband than I made with only the Borla True Dual Exhaust!!!! And I have the dynos to prove it. Bottom line is single components grant more gains than stacking many mods together. I know the Borla TD gave me big gains alone, but believe it is not as potent when used in conjuction with other pieces. I'm at peace with that because I know my current mix will serve me better when I go FI than a stock set up with only the Borla TD would.

The goal here is to show, when putting together a complex array of mods, what you can realistically expect to get. I think with different headers and a flywheel, I'd be now where I wanted to be when I started my venture.

No, but I'll make a point to look for it now. Did have Nismos or Borlas before? I thought the Nismos make pretty decent power. BTW, now that I'm certain the Borla Headers are one of my problems, maybe Doug will donate some of the Crawford Headers to me to test out...

Sure, I'll post anything I can that will further the knowledge base on my350z.com. My A/F with the TS ECU starts in the low to mid-14s and quickly falls to high 12s by 3500rpm. From here it drifts down 12.5 as you move past 4000rpm and stays there until redline.


Now, Get me some data people!

daytona350z

iTrader: (19)

hehhe, no prob...
my headers have been dynoed, i have rt cats coming in soon...rs*r exhaust should be in shortly. after all that i am going to get plenum, jwt popp charger, TS ecu flash (im lucky cuz i lie in so cal, so they can wipe out all the bugs).

all will be done, just need to make money first....(any so cal peeps want a detail? take a look in the regional forum and help me out)

PhoenixINX

Mike Edens (mjedens) was running the NISMO headers. After moving to Doug's he gained a max of 41 ft-lbs down low... and nice gains through out the band. GRANTED he does have a fully forged motor, stock CR, and tomei 268s.

What ALL did TS do to your ECU? Only fuel? He didn't touch timing did he? Rev limit?

Hupperware

Z Baseline - Just broken in

zimbo

iTrader: (4)

mcduck, I like the fact that you only want before-after dyno information because this helps remove the actual dyno machine from the equation.

I'm assuming that all your dynos were done on the same machine, correct?

--Steve

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

Here you go Andy.

Run 8 was basline w/ Drop in filter, 14 was plenum only, 26 was JWT,Plenum, headers, and cats. My a/f was 13.3 most of the way.

I cant post the ECU runs because I never got farther than 6000 rpm and it lost power even there. It was an experimental flash anyway.

Very LARGE dyno plot

Good luck!

Jeff@Performance

Here's my entry..... same dyno... lot's of different days and temps.
232hp/227TQ Base line with 40miles on car.
249hp/237TQ Nismo CAI, Nismo Headers, Nismo Cams.
268hp/257TQ RT Cats, Nismo Exhaust, UD Pulley, T/S ECU.
Dyno to follow mod's starting today... Nismo 46cc Heads, JIC Y-Pipe, JWT Popcharger, T/S ECU update.

Audito350Z

iTrader: (1)

my dyno sheets are at home, so I'll post my stuff later today

Cheers,

PeteH

Hupperware

Shouldn't your baseline numbers be based after the car is broken in?

I've heard some stories of Nissan using the ECU to limit output until their recommended break-in mark is achieved. After which, better numbers are achieved.

mcduck

Good question. My mechanic called Danny to find this out and was put off. When I sent my TS in, I gave Danny a list of my mods so far and he said they already had a program for that combination. I assume the applied a "canned" program for the mods I have. Well, it's not working for me as it has for others and I don't really want to spend weeks and weeks shipping my ECU back and forth across America. So, today, I call Danny to see about being put back to stock. The only quantifiable changes we can see for the ECU are the A/F adjustments (low need on my end since I was not running terribly lean before) and the higher rev limiter (which I like muchly!). I had expected the TS ECU flash would help me maximize gains from my other components as well (thru high RPM range timing). It did not. In fact, if you compare my Borla TD only dyno to my current dyno, the only place I am significantly ahead now is RPM beyond peak HP. Down low, there is virtually no difference in HP and only a very small gain in torque (around 7-8 ftlbs). I would love to know exactly what TS changed, but we could only get the website, pre-canned answer.

I'm sure if I were closer to TS they could dial me right in... but I'm not... and right now the TS problem is what is holding me back from doing the next things I want to do.

Yes and no... I do have a full set on the same machine, but I also switched to a new dyno to make sure the first dyno wasn't just reading low. So, to verify the switch, I dynoed the exact same setup on the first dyno than on the second. My numbers were within 2hp of each other between the two different dynos.

All...
thanks for the data thus far... keep it coming!

Jeff specifically...
Thanks for all your efforts! I actually already had your info from other threads. It's too bad we don't have more dealerships like Performance Nissan. It's nice to see someone out there taking the initiative AND sharing information on a regular basis with the rest of us.

zxsaint

Here's my take:

Borla headers + borla exhaust: Headers are High velocity/restrictive(for backpressure) and free flowing exhaust. The borla catback makes for higher hp output, while the headers keep the torque up with no hp gains. Borla headers don't seem to offer much more than the stock headers do.

Nismo headers + nismo exhaust: Free flowing headers and restrictive exhaust... headers make more hp than the exhaust, catback provides for torque. In this scenario the exhaust doesn't do much.

Mix these up and you'll have trouble... nismo headers + borla's all free-flowing design and you'll lose lots of torque by reducing backpressure and slowing down the flow.

The combinations are whats critical, which is why we can't expect to add up published hp gains.

My conclusion? The better choice is Borla exhaust w/ oem headers OR nismo headers with oem exhaust. They should yield very similar gains.

PhoenixINX

Interesting theory, though proven wrong...

Doug's headers which flow more free than anything else out there... were mated to the Borla TD - great gains were made.

My conslusion? Doug's headers with any greater flowing exhaust system, headers back.

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

I don’t know that I agree . . .in my research this is a nice combo. I would definitely not qualify the nismo exhaust as restrictive. Expensive. . .yes. Resrtictive . .no! It uses larger pipe than stock and had very comparable HP numbers to the dual systems. It also had better TQ numbers then the borla.

mcduck

I agree... my research thus far seems to back up your take on things, zxsaint.

PhoenixINX... actually, though you say you don't agree, your statements says that you do. Your statement basically matches what zxsaint is proposing. Based on the initial information I received, the Crawford headers would funtion as the Nismo headers do in zxsaint's example.... only they would be a little more potent. Still trying to get enough of a sample of Crawford headers users to verify this.

PhoenixINX

Tail of the dragon...

You'll get five samples!