PROOF!!! Normally aspirated mods do almost nothing!!!!!
you didnt finish the article I dont think. on the brakes, they noted they dont think the pads were seated properly, as in too new. I thought the Rtune actually got longer stop times.
they did not test anything about fad either. but that was noted already.
nismo sucks IMO. Ive said it before. stamp a warrenty on a bunch of BS crap that has never hurt a car before that Ive seen. anyone had issues from putting an exhaust on? CAI isnt covered anyway, but if it was, hyrdrolock is excluded from the warrenty anyway.
its all generic stuff meant for people that have too much money and get it installed from the dealer, often financing it at the same time. thats my opinion. none of it is the most potent parts on the market.
they did not test anything about fad either. but that was noted already.
nismo sucks IMO. Ive said it before. stamp a warrenty on a bunch of BS crap that has never hurt a car before that Ive seen. anyone had issues from putting an exhaust on? CAI isnt covered anyway, but if it was, hyrdrolock is excluded from the warrenty anyway.
its all generic stuff meant for people that have too much money and get it installed from the dealer, often financing it at the same time. thats my opinion. none of it is the most potent parts on the market.
i was wondering if anyone was ever going to mention anything about this article..
its pretty dissapointing!!!
is it even possible to only gain 10hp and only gain 1 tenth in the 1/4 mile after installing headers, exhaust, CAMS, intake, clutch/flywheel, LSD and whatever else they have??? not to mention how much more expensive they are compared to everyone else!!
thats really dissapointing!!
for anyone who has any nismo parts.... what do you guys think?? did you feel little or no difference after installing any of your mods?? especially the ones with multiple nismo mods??????
its pretty dissapointing!!!
is it even possible to only gain 10hp and only gain 1 tenth in the 1/4 mile after installing headers, exhaust, CAMS, intake, clutch/flywheel, LSD and whatever else they have??? not to mention how much more expensive they are compared to everyone else!!
thats really dissapointing!!
for anyone who has any nismo parts.... what do you guys think?? did you feel little or no difference after installing any of your mods?? especially the ones with multiple nismo mods??????
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From: Puerto Rico
Originally posted by webcarconnection
Normally aspirated mods do very much on the Z
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....threadid=69913
Normally aspirated mods do very much on the Z
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....threadid=69913
good gains though!!!
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From: Seattle, WA
I posted this reply once already but I will do so again as it should be very helpful in understanding NA modifications:
"You guys need to remember that headers, exhaust, converters, CAI and manifolds DO NOT make power. All they do is to allow the engine to operate more efficiently, therefore producing power closer to it's maximum potential in aspirated form. In other words, if an NA engine has the potential of making 300 HP at 100% VE (Volumetric Efficiency), that is all the power it will ever make, regardless of the bolt-on changes made. The only way the engine can produce more power is to add forced air and more fuel or nitrous oxide and more fuel. The typical street engine runs between 75% to 85% VE. So, if CAI, intake manifold and exhaust bring the VE to 100%, then adding headers will not yield any more power, or any other combination of mods.... Now the likelihood of getting a factory built and installed engine to 100% VE is slim to none.
The bottom line is, if headers bring the VE close to 100% (with some other mods: CAI, etc.) and a cat back exhaust yields the same increase, both together will not double the increase in power. Flow characteristics are only one aspect of exhuast to consider, the design of each component also has a lot to do with the performance. Pressure waves, acoustics, etc play an equally important role in achieving 100% VE."
Now, it appears the 350Z runs closer to 100% VE from the factory so there isn't much power left to produce in NA form. But until 100% is achieved, there IS room for improvement. The reason FI and chemical injection offer more power per dollar is due to the fact they raise the potential of the engine to produce more power. But guess what, headers and exhaust designed for FI and chemical injection will also allow the engine to produce even more power. Remember that 14.4 PSI = one complete atmosphere, therefore, the NA power output of given engine should double. But just because you can force that much more air into the engine doesn't mean you can get it out with the stock manifolds and exhaust. Modifications are all relevant to one another.... It's a matter of mixing and matching the proper components to achieve the maximum "potential" from your engine.
Intake manifold design is much less critical with FI engines because the intake charge is under pressure. This is also true for the headers on FI engines. Scavenging isn't nearly as important because the exhaust gases are being forced out from the incoming, pressurized charge. You want a straight, un-restricted path.
Chemical injection (nitrous oxide), creates a tremendous amount of exhaust because the nitrogen does not burn. It simply acts as a carrier for the oxygen molecule, then exits the combustion chamber. So improvements in the intake manifold will yield results, because the mixture is still drawn into the engine. The headers in this case should also be a larger primary design than a NA engine, to accomodate the extra exhaust. Large primary headers that scavenge well are the optimum choice for chemical injection.
I hope I didn't bore anyone. I kinda got carried away here.
"You guys need to remember that headers, exhaust, converters, CAI and manifolds DO NOT make power. All they do is to allow the engine to operate more efficiently, therefore producing power closer to it's maximum potential in aspirated form. In other words, if an NA engine has the potential of making 300 HP at 100% VE (Volumetric Efficiency), that is all the power it will ever make, regardless of the bolt-on changes made. The only way the engine can produce more power is to add forced air and more fuel or nitrous oxide and more fuel. The typical street engine runs between 75% to 85% VE. So, if CAI, intake manifold and exhaust bring the VE to 100%, then adding headers will not yield any more power, or any other combination of mods.... Now the likelihood of getting a factory built and installed engine to 100% VE is slim to none.
The bottom line is, if headers bring the VE close to 100% (with some other mods: CAI, etc.) and a cat back exhaust yields the same increase, both together will not double the increase in power. Flow characteristics are only one aspect of exhuast to consider, the design of each component also has a lot to do with the performance. Pressure waves, acoustics, etc play an equally important role in achieving 100% VE."
Now, it appears the 350Z runs closer to 100% VE from the factory so there isn't much power left to produce in NA form. But until 100% is achieved, there IS room for improvement. The reason FI and chemical injection offer more power per dollar is due to the fact they raise the potential of the engine to produce more power. But guess what, headers and exhaust designed for FI and chemical injection will also allow the engine to produce even more power. Remember that 14.4 PSI = one complete atmosphere, therefore, the NA power output of given engine should double. But just because you can force that much more air into the engine doesn't mean you can get it out with the stock manifolds and exhaust. Modifications are all relevant to one another.... It's a matter of mixing and matching the proper components to achieve the maximum "potential" from your engine.
Intake manifold design is much less critical with FI engines because the intake charge is under pressure. This is also true for the headers on FI engines. Scavenging isn't nearly as important because the exhaust gases are being forced out from the incoming, pressurized charge. You want a straight, un-restricted path.
Chemical injection (nitrous oxide), creates a tremendous amount of exhaust because the nitrogen does not burn. It simply acts as a carrier for the oxygen molecule, then exits the combustion chamber. So improvements in the intake manifold will yield results, because the mixture is still drawn into the engine. The headers in this case should also be a larger primary design than a NA engine, to accomodate the extra exhaust. Large primary headers that scavenge well are the optimum choice for chemical injection.
I hope I didn't bore anyone. I kinda got carried away here.
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for the money you spend on N/A mods to get 25-30rwhp, thousands and thousand and thousands of dollars......why would you not just listen that there a waste of money and the money you gonna put in for 30rwhp, get a blower and get 150rwhp? I read the SCC article and after doing exactly what they compared, I'd agree with there outcome 100%........Aftermarket N/A mods do virtually nothing except make your head bigger when your talking to a guy with a stock 350Z.........
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From: Hawaii
DanF,
Interesting point you brought up. I never thought of it that way, but you're right. If the engine is near 100% efficiency, then adding all the N/A bolt-ons may not yield the kind of power one would hope for.
Good explanation .
Interesting point you brought up. I never thought of it that way, but you're right. If the engine is near 100% efficiency, then adding all the N/A bolt-ons may not yield the kind of power one would hope for.
Good explanation
.
Thread Starter
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From: West Springfield, MA
I never said you can't build a super-powerful NA motor...of course you can, but the mods you have mentioned really constitute building an almost entirely different motor. Let me clarify my position a little......BOLT ON mods on most NA motors are a waste of money.
I dont agree with that at all. Obviously, NA mods dont do as much as FI but they still gives decent gains. I dont know where they got $14k for those few parts you mentioned on that car. I've spent under $2k for exhaust, grounding kit, and intake and i feel it has helped a little. I never really trust all those stats in most magazines.
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From: columbia md.
Originally posted by DanF
I posted this reply once already but I will do so again as it should be very helpful in understanding NA modifications:
"You guys need to remember that headers, exhaust, converters, CAI and manifolds DO NOT make power. All they do is to allow the engine to operate more efficiently, therefore producing power closer to it's maximum potential in aspirated form. In other words, if an NA engine has the potential of making 300 HP at 100% VE (Volumetric Efficiency), that is all the power it will ever make, regardless of the bolt-on changes made. The only way the engine can produce more power is to add forced air and more fuel or nitrous oxide and more fuel. The typical street engine runs between 75% to 85% VE. So, if CAI, intake manifold and exhaust bring the VE to 100%, then adding headers will not yield any more power, or any other combination of mods.... Now the likelihood of getting a factory built and installed engine to 100% VE is slim to none.
The bottom line is, if headers bring the VE close to 100% (with some other mods: CAI, etc.) and a cat back exhaust yields the same increase, both together will not double the increase in power. Flow characteristics are only one aspect of exhuast to consider, the design of each component also has a lot to do with the performance. Pressure waves, acoustics, etc play an equally important role in achieving 100% VE."
Now, it appears the 350Z runs closer to 100% VE from the factory so there isn't much power left to produce in NA form. But until 100% is achieved, there IS room for improvement. The reason FI and chemical injection offer more power per dollar is due to the fact they raise the potential of the engine to produce more power. But guess what, headers and exhaust designed for FI and chemical injection will also allow the engine to produce even more power. Remember that 14.4 PSI = one complete atmosphere, therefore, the NA power output of given engine should double. But just because you can force that much more air into the engine doesn't mean you can get it out with the stock manifolds and exhaust. Modifications are all relevant to one another.... It's a matter of mixing and matching the proper components to achieve the maximum "potential" from your engine.
Intake manifold design is much less critical with FI engines because the intake charge is under pressure. This is also true for the headers on FI engines. Scavenging isn't nearly as important because the exhaust gases are being forced out from the incoming, pressurized charge. You want a straight, un-restricted path.
Chemical injection (nitrous oxide), creates a tremendous amount of exhaust because the nitrogen does not burn. It simply acts as a carrier for the oxygen molecule, then exits the combustion chamber. So improvements in the intake manifold will yield results, because the mixture is still drawn into the engine. The headers in this case should also be a larger primary design than a NA engine, to accomodate the extra exhaust. Large primary headers that scavenge well are the optimum choice for chemical injection.
I hope I didn't bore anyone. I kinda got carried away here.
I posted this reply once already but I will do so again as it should be very helpful in understanding NA modifications:
"You guys need to remember that headers, exhaust, converters, CAI and manifolds DO NOT make power. All they do is to allow the engine to operate more efficiently, therefore producing power closer to it's maximum potential in aspirated form. In other words, if an NA engine has the potential of making 300 HP at 100% VE (Volumetric Efficiency), that is all the power it will ever make, regardless of the bolt-on changes made. The only way the engine can produce more power is to add forced air and more fuel or nitrous oxide and more fuel. The typical street engine runs between 75% to 85% VE. So, if CAI, intake manifold and exhaust bring the VE to 100%, then adding headers will not yield any more power, or any other combination of mods.... Now the likelihood of getting a factory built and installed engine to 100% VE is slim to none.
The bottom line is, if headers bring the VE close to 100% (with some other mods: CAI, etc.) and a cat back exhaust yields the same increase, both together will not double the increase in power. Flow characteristics are only one aspect of exhuast to consider, the design of each component also has a lot to do with the performance. Pressure waves, acoustics, etc play an equally important role in achieving 100% VE."
Now, it appears the 350Z runs closer to 100% VE from the factory so there isn't much power left to produce in NA form. But until 100% is achieved, there IS room for improvement. The reason FI and chemical injection offer more power per dollar is due to the fact they raise the potential of the engine to produce more power. But guess what, headers and exhaust designed for FI and chemical injection will also allow the engine to produce even more power. Remember that 14.4 PSI = one complete atmosphere, therefore, the NA power output of given engine should double. But just because you can force that much more air into the engine doesn't mean you can get it out with the stock manifolds and exhaust. Modifications are all relevant to one another.... It's a matter of mixing and matching the proper components to achieve the maximum "potential" from your engine.
Intake manifold design is much less critical with FI engines because the intake charge is under pressure. This is also true for the headers on FI engines. Scavenging isn't nearly as important because the exhaust gases are being forced out from the incoming, pressurized charge. You want a straight, un-restricted path.
Chemical injection (nitrous oxide), creates a tremendous amount of exhaust because the nitrogen does not burn. It simply acts as a carrier for the oxygen molecule, then exits the combustion chamber. So improvements in the intake manifold will yield results, because the mixture is still drawn into the engine. The headers in this case should also be a larger primary design than a NA engine, to accomodate the extra exhaust. Large primary headers that scavenge well are the optimum choice for chemical injection.
I hope I didn't bore anyone. I kinda got carried away here.
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From: Atlanta
Re: PROOF!!! Normally aspirated mods do almost nothing!!!!!
Baseline dyno 234 rwhp in 2002; last dyno 2 weeks ago on same dyno, came in at 268 rwhp. The only Nismo product that I have that adds power are the headers.
Originally posted by Speedracer
Sorry to burst everyones bubble, but for those of you who think all those filters and fancy pieces of tubing are doing anything other than burning a hole in your wallet, here's some proof:
The May issue of Sport Compact Car tests a stock Track Z, a NISMO S-tune Z, and a NISMO R-tune Z. The R-tune had all the available intake, exhaust, engine, brake, and driveline mods +body kit+suspension, wheels and tires. The S-tune was simply the cat-back exhaust, suspension, wheels and tires.
The result.....The $14,000 in mods, not including labor for install on the R-tune car, resulted in a whopping 10hp gain on the dyno. It took an amazing 0.1 seconds off the 0-60 time.
What was meaningful were the gains provided by the suspension, wheels and tires. The R ad S tune cars turned 0.98g on the skidpad vs. 0.93g on the stock Track model.
The Brembo brake sytem on the Track also only took off 3 feet in the 60-0 stopping distance compared to the standard Z braking system. The Nismo pads with the Brembos actually produced the worst braking distances.
Really....the Z motor is in a pretty high state of tune already. 82hp/liter in NA form is pretty good. This equals the output of the Audi S4 V8. Only the BMW M3 and Honda S2000 have higher specific outputs among non-exotics. Remember, this same engine in it's "average" state of tune puts out 240hp in the Altima. Nissan has already squeezed out another 47 for the stock Z. THERE AIN'T MUCH MORE LEFT IN THERE!!!!!
So.....save your money or put it where it will make a difference. Clearly suspension, wheels, tires can increase the handling limits of the car. Body kits can give you a unique look. Audio system upgrades are a clear benefit. But the thousands put into normally aspirated engine mods are a waste....totally. If you have $2000 to spend on hp enhancing mods, do a state of the art wet nitrous system complete with augmented fuel flow, etc. You'll get 50-100 hp safely. If you want real gains, forced induction has been and will always be the ONLY way to go. 20 years of modding cars has taught me this and it stands true today. Now.....if you are modding just for the sake of modding, and accept it as such...that is a different story entirely. Just don't fool yourself.
Sorry to burst everyones bubble, but for those of you who think all those filters and fancy pieces of tubing are doing anything other than burning a hole in your wallet, here's some proof:
The May issue of Sport Compact Car tests a stock Track Z, a NISMO S-tune Z, and a NISMO R-tune Z. The R-tune had all the available intake, exhaust, engine, brake, and driveline mods +body kit+suspension, wheels and tires. The S-tune was simply the cat-back exhaust, suspension, wheels and tires.
The result.....The $14,000 in mods, not including labor for install on the R-tune car, resulted in a whopping 10hp gain on the dyno. It took an amazing 0.1 seconds off the 0-60 time.
What was meaningful were the gains provided by the suspension, wheels and tires. The R ad S tune cars turned 0.98g on the skidpad vs. 0.93g on the stock Track model.
The Brembo brake sytem on the Track also only took off 3 feet in the 60-0 stopping distance compared to the standard Z braking system. The Nismo pads with the Brembos actually produced the worst braking distances.
Really....the Z motor is in a pretty high state of tune already. 82hp/liter in NA form is pretty good. This equals the output of the Audi S4 V8. Only the BMW M3 and Honda S2000 have higher specific outputs among non-exotics. Remember, this same engine in it's "average" state of tune puts out 240hp in the Altima. Nissan has already squeezed out another 47 for the stock Z. THERE AIN'T MUCH MORE LEFT IN THERE!!!!!
So.....save your money or put it where it will make a difference. Clearly suspension, wheels, tires can increase the handling limits of the car. Body kits can give you a unique look. Audio system upgrades are a clear benefit. But the thousands put into normally aspirated engine mods are a waste....totally. If you have $2000 to spend on hp enhancing mods, do a state of the art wet nitrous system complete with augmented fuel flow, etc. You'll get 50-100 hp safely. If you want real gains, forced induction has been and will always be the ONLY way to go. 20 years of modding cars has taught me this and it stands true today. Now.....if you are modding just for the sake of modding, and accept it as such...that is a different story entirely. Just don't fool yourself.
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From: Charlotte, NC
PROOF!!! Normally aspirated mods do almost nothing!!!!!
The result.....The $14,000 in mods, not including labor for install on the R-tune car, resulted in a whopping 10hp gain on the dyno. It took an amazing 0.1 seconds off the 0-60 time.
I'll admit, the gains were not as large as i would have liked, but they did make a noticeable difference. Seems to me, the SCC article needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Too many people on this forum have proved contrary to their test.
The Brembo brake sytem on the Track also only took off 3 feet in the 60-0 stopping distance compared to the standard Z braking system. The Nismo pads with the Brembos actually produced the worst braking distances.
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From: Charlotte, NC
I should also add that while we did not get the gains we thought we should for what we put on the car during its NA incarnation, those same boltons made a huge difference when we supercharged the car.
My Z is hitting a good 50-60 hp more than non- or lightly modded Vortech 350Zs (425rwhp vs 360-370rwhp, on average). That, I believe, is directly attributed to prior mods that work for NA and work even better for FI (cams, headers, cats, exhaust, plenum).
My Z is hitting a good 50-60 hp more than non- or lightly modded Vortech 350Zs (425rwhp vs 360-370rwhp, on average). That, I believe, is directly attributed to prior mods that work for NA and work even better for FI (cams, headers, cats, exhaust, plenum).
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From: Puerto Rico
Well with my mods (and the dyno I show above) I witness the power that the car have rigth now compare to stock forms... I race any stock Z on the street and all stay at least 7 cars behind is ridiculous... for me that is important, if the dyno show low #s for some people here thats one thing, but go on the street and you will see the diference of this N/A mods, trust me... I believe 100% that N/A modifications are very efective when you compared with stock Z's... my 2 cents!
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From: Little Rock, Arkansas
WOW, this was posted 3 weeks ago and I beg to differ with you, I am close to 280 rwhp all NA, so don't go by everything you read. In fact I sent Josh Jocquot one of the editors for SCC an e-mail in reference to this article and he agrees that some of the conditions could have caused the low hp gains not including the cheap a#@ gas in California. Obviously you did not read the article last year where they compared the Stillen SC car, the Greddy TT car, the Brembo car and the JWT car because if you would have you would have seen where the JWT car had the fastest 0-60 times and it was only .03 off of the Greddy TT in the 1/4 mile, so I would think twice before posting something that is old news and then get your facts straight on some other previous articles.....Just my 2 cents worth. BTW, all NISMO on my car so yea, you struck a nerve.
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From: Vortechville,CA
Originally posted by mcduck
I should also add that while we did not get the gains we thought we should for what we put on the car during its NA incarnation, those same boltons made a huge difference when we supercharged the car.
My Z is hitting a good 50-60 hp more than non- or lightly modded Vortech 350Zs (425rwhp vs 360-370rwhp, on average). That, I believe, is directly attributed to prior mods that work for NA and work even better for FI (cams, headers, cats, exhaust, plenum).
I should also add that while we did not get the gains we thought we should for what we put on the car during its NA incarnation, those same boltons made a huge difference when we supercharged the car.
My Z is hitting a good 50-60 hp more than non- or lightly modded Vortech 350Zs (425rwhp vs 360-370rwhp, on average). That, I believe, is directly attributed to prior mods that work for NA and work even better for FI (cams, headers, cats, exhaust, plenum).
I havent tuned mine yet...
........blowin 10.2:1 A/F and got 333rwhp.......I see a 400rwhp with correct A/F and dyno pulls in 5th gear. My 333 was pulled in 3rd gear and in 5th probably closer to 350rwhp...... but you are right N/A mods with a blower will result in higher rwhp, the exit is bigger and the entry is bigger.
