radiologue

Discussion on another thread was asking about blueprint and balance. I thought I would include some of the information that was provided to me from ERL (http://www.erlperformance.com) during my engine build.

I am a nissan Z enthusiast and have owned four nissan z's ranging from an 1987 turbo 300zx to my current modified 350z TT. I am not associated with or represent any vendors on this or any other site.

Engine Specs Provided

Crankshaft: Brian Crower 86.4 mm Stroke (Power Enterprise)
Pistons: CP 100 mmm (part #: 70825, Pins 866-2500-20CP3C)
Rings: CP (part #: Rs1658-3937-0)
Rods: Brian Crower (Part#: BC6228) C/L to C/L 5.675, Bores 2.165/0.866
Main Bearings: ACL (part# 4M2633HX-Std)
Rod Bearings: ACL (part#: 6B2640HX-Std)
Thrust Bearings: ACL (part#: 2T2633-Std)
ERL 4 Point Main Girdle
Engine block with Darton Sleeves (M.I.D. kit sleeves)
Cylinder Hone to Piston Spec
ARP Main Stud Kit
Rotating Assembly Balance

Engine Clearances: See attachment


Have numerous other spec sheets, but I thought this would give those interested an idea of what should be provided.

radiologue

Anybody have any comments on engine blueprinting, rotating assembly balance, effects on longevity, and current practices of the "vendors" in the Z community?

go-fast

hello.....lonely in here is'nt it?this is my same experience......for the life of me i don't know why.

go-fast

i do have questions about your spec sheet though,the ring gap and other specs are almost too perfect.file file rings are very difficult to get that consistent.there is alot missing,but it's more than anyone else has produced.

radiologue

The information provided is right off the spec sheet provided to me from ERL. The only way I would know that the values are not true would be to have my engine sent to a third party. I have no reason to believe that they are not valid measures though. Note that ERL was not selling me the engine and had nothing to gain by falsifying the measures. There job was to hone and sleeve block, clearance where needed for the Brian Crower Stroker, install / clearance main girdle, blueprint, and rotating assembly balance. They were not selling me anything (except the main girdle) other than services.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

Not really much that should/can be commented on - some places do it, some places don't. I personally wouldn't install an engine into my own car that didn't go through such a process, but others opinions will vary. There is no doubt it has obvious benefits for engine performance, longevity, etc. I've said this a few times in a few different threads, but the engine builder is the single most important part of the build process, followed by the tuner. I can't comment on what others may or may not practice, since I don't know them, and we don't sell built motors.

gothchick

iTrader: (12)

I've been hearing really good things about ERL lately...

Audible Mayhem

iTrader: (48)

i would tighten up the top ring to .017 but everything else looks good.

go-fast

+1 on all of it,i think he is posting to show how built motor blueprint details are painfully missing from "top" builders on these forums.it shows they are building to one level(halfassed) and charging for a much higher level of precision(non-halfassed).the money built blocks are selling for here would indicate all the checks,balances and precision have been perfomed,but this is the first build sheet worth a damm i have seen.now if his motor pops,there is no need for 3rd party bs and finger pointing.it gets opened up verified and the truth is plain for everyone to see.besides with a blueprint there a starting point to work from.with no scientific disipline,you end up running around in circles as a community.none of this has been thoroughly documented .lessons' can be learned from the domestic segment,high end motors would be refused delivery without this info and around here nobody cares.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

well with all due respect, opening a motor after it blows to verify specs is sort of like running a horse backwards around a track

go-fast

not a waste at all,tight clearance is not something attributed to wear,deck height doesn't change,big end dia,main dia,bore sampled below the piston skirt,valvelash,spring installed height,chamber volume.the list goes on,but comparative data is available.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

data is there yes, but it's not anything you can necessarily bank on is my point. I don't have to tell you metal does funny things when it overheats, or is starved of oil, etc. etc. Does it help? Absolutely, but you can't always verify if something was done to spec, or not to spec after she's given up the ghost. It all really depends on "how" it blew, but I digress.

go-fast

+1 on how it blew making thigs difficult,but you can always pull something out of a motor even if it is seriously trashed.even if you cant' read the bottom end,confirming math on the heads is evidence that you did or didn't get the detail you paid for.i think blown motors are the key to the next step,without and autopsy how can you adjust?

dryseals

Not to try and rain on your parade, but without all the inside info, the spec are just what they are and nothing more.

I used to work with guy that dirt tracked and drag raced on the weekends and dominated the tracks. He was hated by many, not because he kept winning, but because he used junk parts to build his engines. Most would spend thousands on their engines while he would use used and unmatched parts. I've seen the guy grind the hump off a piston with a hand grinder, polish bearings with scotch brite for clearance, set a set of springs using a drill press and a set of bath room scales, on and on and on.

I built some motors with him and learned many of his tricks. That being said, put him in a top notch machine shop and he could build you a motor that would last forever and run like a scalded ape. The main thing he always pointed out was feel during the assembly. If the crank didn't feel right he would pull it, if the rings and piston didn't feel right, he would adjust.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that anyone can generate numbers, making it all work together is the key.

go-fast

if you know what you are doing you can make big power with a frankenstein motor,but blueprints are what develops a platform efficiently.the vq is fairly new,but there should be a substantial documentation by now.right now there is one...first post(which is only a partial)

radiologue

Yes, that is the question that I am asking. What are the practices of the engine builders in this Z community? What has been done up front to assure that your investment doesn't go up in smoke? How do we further the progression of the VQ development? Will the sharing of blueprints, engine failures and successes, and other technical information on the boards help us or is that secret proprietary information that is too sacred to dissemenate?

go-fast

i won't share a customers blueprint,i consider it private info between me and the cust.of course when he pays for a blueprinted motor it becomes his property and can do what he wishes with the report.

radiologue

If the information is shared in a way that does not link it to the customer then I do not see how that could be harmful to the customer or the builder/customer relationship. This is done everyday in the medical community and obviously involves much more sensitive information.

captj3

iTrader: (1)

I don't understand how you can say this. You want people and shops to put out this information then you call it private and give all the shops something to hide behind. For a long time I have felt it was all about making money at the customers expense. Use them as a guinea pig they sign all kinds of releases so the shop isn't held accountablefor any mistakes. Then the famous sentence comes out when something goes wrong ( you have to pay to play ). I just love that one.

go-fast

i don't advertise my service here,so i have no reason to share my hard work with other shops with substandard build quality.my blueprints are for me to advance MY customers cars.i provide all specs to the customer,and like i said before if they choose to share,they paid for and own the blueprint for their motor and can do as they wish.my whole point on this forum is no shop does the work neccessary to build a true "built" engine and to date only one customer has admitted to having been provided a blueprint(half of one anyway).if you pay $12k for a motor,there should be ample verification that the motor has been built to the highest standard.from what i can see here,"re-builders" are slapping race parts in a block and calling it a hp engine.which in my opinion is the shortest route to disaster possible,and considering the failure rate of vq's seems to be the case.think about it,the best motors they put out are the ones that they do the least work to.that tells you a whole lot about who you are dealing with around here.i would suggest mandatory reading for anyone buying a built motor would be "engine blueprinting" by rick voegelin.for $20 bucks you can read up and at least know what a true hp build should include,instead of taking these morons word for it.btwy i tried scanning my blueprint sheets (blank) months ago and posting them up,but the files where to large,so don't accuse me of holding back.....i did try.the $20 bucks for the book is not only a good idea for potential customers to better understand what's involved in a real build,but maybe should be looked over by the shops advertising on here.they might spend less time defending themselves and more time enjoying phone calls from happy customers.if they already have the knowledge......the question is why are they not using it?hint : time is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.bottom line is........if you as the customer don't demand perfection you will continue to have half-assed shops build you half-assed motors and the pissing,wining and finger pointing will continue.(which is the whole point of my participation).now i'm getting weary of begging you guy's to care,so this will be the last post of mine on this topic(unless the rv saleseman comes out of retirement)mods.........please strip him of his sponser status,he has no shop,is not a mechanic,builder or auto professional in any definition of the term and in my opinion has done more harm than good in this forum.his sponsor title gives him credibility that he has not earned nor deserves.