Attitude towards re-hashing old topics
Originally Posted by mdracer76
Sillk... god bless .. you have summed to a T ...
MODS... if you are listening.. we REALLY neeed to do some thread cleaning / merging. This will enable for easier searching by folks that are not familiar with the use of search engines.
Also.. I'd rather see someone revive a dead thread, than create a new one.
MODS... if you are listening.. we REALLY neeed to do some thread cleaning / merging. This will enable for easier searching by folks that are not familiar with the use of search engines.
Also.. I'd rather see someone revive a dead thread, than create a new one.
Lost in Transit
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Again,
If you even browsed one of the 4 times it has been brought up lately you can see what the solution is to fix that.
Let's take this an example:
If you just typed "****" on google.com you would come up with 1000's of threads that are meaningless, but if you used boolean search capabilities then you would be able to narrow it down.
Now the problem with boolean searching is the fact that it's very expensive on the db/hardware side. Hence the reason it's not turned on by default, we have to do a massive undertaking to be able to allow searching on a replicated database but first and foremost our #1 project is to relocate the servers to a new DC. No matter how good we make the search, if the servers are down cause of people in our cabinet then it won't help.
So in short the search is not the most efficient if you are a non premium member, if you are a premium member and you don't know boolean searches I'll dig up some stuff tonight and post a howto on using the boolean search function.
If you even browsed one of the 4 times it has been brought up lately you can see what the solution is to fix that.
Let's take this an example:
If you just typed "****" on google.com you would come up with 1000's of threads that are meaningless, but if you used boolean search capabilities then you would be able to narrow it down.
Now the problem with boolean searching is the fact that it's very expensive on the db/hardware side. Hence the reason it's not turned on by default, we have to do a massive undertaking to be able to allow searching on a replicated database but first and foremost our #1 project is to relocate the servers to a new DC. No matter how good we make the search, if the servers are down cause of people in our cabinet then it won't help.
So in short the search is not the most efficient if you are a non premium member, if you are a premium member and you don't know boolean searches I'll dig up some stuff tonight and post a howto on using the boolean search function.
Originally Posted by leykias
i agree with the original poster....
who CARES if someone repeats a thread....damn...why are you oldschool'ing members...so jaded
if you don't like the threads just ignore them...
instead you have to go out of your way to post something pretty much saying, "oh, just use the search button you dumbass.."
who CARES if someone repeats a thread....damn...why are you oldschool'ing members...so jaded
if you don't like the threads just ignore them...
instead you have to go out of your way to post something pretty much saying, "oh, just use the search button you dumbass.."
Chris
Originally Posted by HyperSprite
And it seems as though you have not even taken the time to read this one.
Chris
Chris
Just so the other thread does not go OT on us, this was posted there
then this
and then this
If I could boil your two "Choices" down, they are:
A) Start a new thread.
B) Read old topics.
But you seem to forget there is more to it than that, you could
C) Sit there in a huff, getting mad at people saying "Search Noob"
D) Read old topics, if after reading what seems to be relevant threads, you could post your additional question in that old thread. Suddenly, people all over would receive their subscription emails and probably get you what you are looking for right away.
E) Read old topics, realize nothing is quite what you are wondering and start a new thread, utilizing some of the knowledge you have gained (showing you did a little research on your own), most will be happy to help you out.
F) Stay in the 'Off Topic" section and wonder why you even need a Z board to discuss shampoo and pay phone sanitation.
G) Read from alternate sources or experience something for yourself and start a new thread to share it with others.
H) Take pictures, video etc and share it with others.
I) Take the initiative to do something new and tell others how you did it.
Obviously, A, C and F are the easy ones... for you. They require little effort on your part. Just sit back and wait for everyone else to search their brains, this site, the interwebnets.
The other choices require you to become a member of the community, to put a little effort forth, to contribute, even if it's just doing your part to learn to search well enough to get a relevant thread return.
Chris
Originally Posted by semtex
I made this point in a separate thread last week in which I questioned why so many people get bent out of shape over the re-hashing of old topics, noting that the scope of this site is limited, hence sooner or later you're going to run out of fresh things to talk about. It's not like new parts are being made for the Z on a daily or even weekly basis, after all.
From that thread, I've concluded that there are at least 2 different schools of thought on what this site should be. You see, I remarked that once you reach the point of saturation (all topics have been covered), if you yell at everyone for not searching, starting dupe threads, etc., then you may as well stop calling this site a discussion forum and re-bill it as a data archive, i.e., a library. But some folks responded that they don't see this site as a place for discussion so much as a library. In other words, they want this place to be treated primarily as a library rather than as a 'chat' forum.
I don't think there's a right or wrong view per se. Ultimately, all that matters is which school of thought the site admins/owners subscribe to. Do they envision this site primarily as a place for people to come chat? Or more as a search engine / library of useful info?
If they subscribe to the former view, then they need to ease up when people re-post and tell some of the other members here to do the same; if you want people to keep posting, then a certain amount of re-posts are unavoidable when you've got a topic where pretty much everything has already been discussed in the past, and the search engine for digging up past threads isn't that great due to certain resource limitations (which I think even the Admins readily admit).
If they subscribe to the latter view, then keep piling on people for not searching and for re-posting, but also expect the volume of new postings to drop over time and be accepting of it. New posts on new topics that aren't off-topic will eventually slow to a trickle. And if one subscribes to the view that this site should be thought of as a library, then that's not a bad thing.
What's important to understand is that you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to have a vibrant community with a sustained, high volume of fresh posts and no re-posts when there's only so much to talk about. In other words, sooner or later, one is going to have to decide which is the lesser of evils -- re-posts? or silence?
It's sort of like relationships. Do you want the security of a committed relationship (like marriage)? Or do you want the freedom to hook up with a different girl every other day? You can't have it both ways. Gotta choose. (And yes, you could be a scumbag and cheat on your spouse, but if you do that then you're not really in a committed relationship. You're only deluding yourself if you think you're really having it both ways by cheating.)
From that thread, I've concluded that there are at least 2 different schools of thought on what this site should be. You see, I remarked that once you reach the point of saturation (all topics have been covered), if you yell at everyone for not searching, starting dupe threads, etc., then you may as well stop calling this site a discussion forum and re-bill it as a data archive, i.e., a library. But some folks responded that they don't see this site as a place for discussion so much as a library. In other words, they want this place to be treated primarily as a library rather than as a 'chat' forum.
I don't think there's a right or wrong view per se. Ultimately, all that matters is which school of thought the site admins/owners subscribe to. Do they envision this site primarily as a place for people to come chat? Or more as a search engine / library of useful info?
If they subscribe to the former view, then they need to ease up when people re-post and tell some of the other members here to do the same; if you want people to keep posting, then a certain amount of re-posts are unavoidable when you've got a topic where pretty much everything has already been discussed in the past, and the search engine for digging up past threads isn't that great due to certain resource limitations (which I think even the Admins readily admit).
If they subscribe to the latter view, then keep piling on people for not searching and for re-posting, but also expect the volume of new postings to drop over time and be accepting of it. New posts on new topics that aren't off-topic will eventually slow to a trickle. And if one subscribes to the view that this site should be thought of as a library, then that's not a bad thing.
What's important to understand is that you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to have a vibrant community with a sustained, high volume of fresh posts and no re-posts when there's only so much to talk about. In other words, sooner or later, one is going to have to decide which is the lesser of evils -- re-posts? or silence?
It's sort of like relationships. Do you want the security of a committed relationship (like marriage)? Or do you want the freedom to hook up with a different girl every other day? You can't have it both ways. Gotta choose. (And yes, you could be a scumbag and cheat on your spouse, but if you do that then you're not really in a committed relationship. You're only deluding yourself if you think you're really having it both ways by cheating.)
Originally Posted by HyperSprite
I think most people posted their opinion on this in your other thread. That was here right? https://my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212589
It seems you have locked into the idea that you only have two choices, read old information or start a new thread. Since there is more ways to use this board, your gonna have a tough time with it.
By the way 209 new post (excluding off topic) in 2 hours since my last visit.
Chris
It seems you have locked into the idea that you only have two choices, read old information or start a new thread. Since there is more ways to use this board, your gonna have a tough time with it.
By the way 209 new post (excluding off topic) in 2 hours since my last visit.
Chris
Originally Posted by semtex
Well, not entirely true. Note how I phrased it in my OP above: "I've concluded that there are at least 2 different schools of thought on what this site should be." So I'm allowing for the possibility that there are other ways of looking at this. That having been said, though, none have been offered that I can recall. If you have a third option, I'm all ears.
A) Start a new thread.
B) Read old topics.
But you seem to forget there is more to it than that, you could
C) Sit there in a huff, getting mad at people saying "Search Noob"
D) Read old topics, if after reading what seems to be relevant threads, you could post your additional question in that old thread. Suddenly, people all over would receive their subscription emails and probably get you what you are looking for right away.
E) Read old topics, realize nothing is quite what you are wondering and start a new thread, utilizing some of the knowledge you have gained (showing you did a little research on your own), most will be happy to help you out.
F) Stay in the 'Off Topic" section and wonder why you even need a Z board to discuss shampoo and pay phone sanitation.
G) Read from alternate sources or experience something for yourself and start a new thread to share it with others.
H) Take pictures, video etc and share it with others.
I) Take the initiative to do something new and tell others how you did it.
Obviously, A, C and F are the easy ones... for you. They require little effort on your part. Just sit back and wait for everyone else to search their brains, this site, the interwebnets.
The other choices require you to become a member of the community, to put a little effort forth, to contribute, even if it's just doing your part to learn to search well enough to get a relevant thread return.
Chris
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Originally Posted by HyperSprite
If I could boil your two "Choices" down, they are:
A) Start a new thread.
B) Read old topics.
A) Start a new thread.
B) Read old topics.
I don't see what's so controversial about what I've said, nor do I understand how you conclude from my outlining of the two different philosophies that I believe there are only the two options of starting new threads and reading old posts. I never said that everyone should just start a new thread any time they have a question. All I said was that people might want to lighten up and be a little more tolerant. In other words, just accept that it's going to happen from time to time. I'm not saying encourage it, I'm just saying that there's no way to stop it 100% so long as you want this site to be a place where people can post stuff, hence it's not worth blowing a gasket over every time it happens. The only way to stop it 100% is make the site read-only.
Here are some of the other threads I've participated in, leading off with one that I started by sharing a personal experience (fits your option "G").
https://my350z.com/forum/2003-2009-nissan-350z/212879-how-not-to-jack-up-a-350z.html
Here's one that I posted to when I had a question re. Motordyne spacers and the rev-up motor. Yes, that's right. I did a search, found an existing thread, and posted my question to it rather than start a new one. This would fit your option "D."
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ight=motordyne
So do me a favor and get your facts straight before you falsely accuse me of not making any effort. I do put forth the effort, and I resent your insinuation that I don't! Just because I don't quite understand why some folks here get so wound up about dup threads doesn't mean I don't agree that dup threads are a bad thing or that I think everyone should start new threads w.o. seeing if there's already an existing one that's on point. As for being a member of the community -- If being condescending and making false accusations towards others is what passes for being a member of the community around here, this is one community I can do without!
I guess I'll add my 2 cents..The forum is a privledge, not a right...For those new members joining it can be fusturating and often scary when becoming part of a new environment. It's understandable, but no one on the forum will change their way of thinking or cater to the needs of new memebers. Call it a right of passage or whatever.....Come to the forum, don't cause any trouble, don't start any distasteful fights with others, and learn the etiquette of the forum... Once all of this is achieved, new members will learn to assimulate and blend in just fine. Always remember, no one here owes a new member anything. We are not here to cater to every need of other individuals. We offer information as a curtesy and comradery, nothing else. Happy surfing....
Originally Posted by vo7848
I guess I'll add my 2 cents..The forum is a privledge, not a right...For those new members joining it can be fusturating and often scary when becoming part of a new environment. It's understandable, but no one on the forum will change their way of thinking or cater to the needs of new memebers. Call it a right of passage or whatever.....Come to the forum, don't cause any trouble, don't start any distasteful fights with others, and learn the etiquette of the forum... Once all of this is achieved, new members will learn to assimulate and blend in just fine. Always remember, no one here owes a new member anything. We are not here to cater to every need of other individuals. We offer information as a curtesy and comradery, nothing else. Happy surfing....
Imagine walking into a professional race-car driver's pre-race meeting and blurting out "How do you drive a car?" You're going to get some heat because you're wasting their time. You're asking drivers about something that they covered a long time ago. Now let's say that you have full access to the minutes from the meeting in which that topic was covered...They tell you "go look at the minutes from the meeting that took place last year", but you say..."Well that sucks...what if I have questions that aren't answered by the minutes from that meeting?" See where this is going?
Now imagine that these pro drivers are really nice. They stop what they are doing and take the time to walk you through "how to drive a car", and the discussion is logged in the minutes of the pre-race meeting. Now your totally irrelavent topic is forever archived in the minutes. Now imagine that 12 more people come in and ask the same question during subsequent meetings, and the good little secretary makes thorough notes of the discussion. Now there are meeting minutes FILLED with topics that were covered over and over again.
The beauty of the forum is that you have the option to pull the 'meeting minutes' out, and if you have a question that isn't answered, you can digitally pull all the drivers back together and ask them to expand on the topics IN the meeting notes...the secretary doesn't start new minutes, he/she appends them to the existing minutes so they're more thorough for the next guy who wants to read them (and he doesn't have to sift through the other 12 meetings' minutes trying to find it...it's right there at the beginning.)
This is also not a free information finding service for people who are too lazy to do their own research. At this stage in the 350Z game, asking what a pop-charger is is just a sure sign that you are a lazy SOB who probably hasn't seen high-school graduation yet, and you're still used to being spoon-fed by the rest of the world. Why should the rest of us bring you your breakfast in bed....get up if you want to eat.
[/rant]
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I agree with these latest remarks, but I do think that your perspectives might be slightly skewed by your access to Boolean searches as premier members. Newbies aren't typically going to sign up to be premier members right off the bat, so they're not going to have access to Boolean, which in turn lessens the quality of the searches somewhat. And that, of course, increases the odds that they'll post something stupid like 'What's a Turbonator?'
Originally Posted by semtex
I agree with these latest remarks, but I do think that your perspectives might be slightly skewed by your access to Boolean searches as premier members. Newbies aren't typically going to sign up to be premier members right off the bat, so they're not going to have access to Boolean, which in turn lessens the quality of the searches somewhat. And that, of course, increases the odds that they'll post something stupid like 'What's a Turbonator?'
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Originally Posted by kcobean
Now imagine that these pro drivers are really nice. They stop what they are doing and take the time to walk you through "how to drive a car", and the discussion is logged in the minutes of the pre-race meeting. Now your totally irrelavent topic is forever archived in the minutes. Now imagine that 12 more people come in and ask the same question during subsequent meetings, and the good little secretary makes thorough notes of the discussion. Now there are meeting minutes FILLED with topics that were covered over and over again.
So that's really what I was trying to point out when I started this thread. When people post dumb stuff, I have no problem with someone replying with 'Do a search'. But all too often, what I see is outright flaming insults and negativity. And it's SO obvious that some of these people doing the flaming are enjoying it. Yet they have the audacity to try to justify their flaming by saying that it's because the OP is wasting their time. It it's such a waste of time, why go out your way to flame? And indeed, aren't all these flames contributing to the massive amount of wasted 'meeting minutes'? Isn't it making the search function even harder to use? Because now when someone does a search, they have to wade through large amounts of flame posts.
Last edited by semtex; Sep 15, 2006 at 01:40 PM.
Originally Posted by semtex
kcobean, let me explain why I have a slight problem with all of this. First off, I agree with the main thrust of all this, that people should try to search, shouldn't post stupid stuff, etc. The thing that bothers me though is that I often see someone post something stupid, and then everyone just piles on to flame him or make fun of him or whatever. The irony is that this is often done in the vein of 'You're wasting everyone's time you NOOB!'. Well, it just seems somewhat hypocritical to me when I see people complaining about their time being wasted, yet they've clearly gone out of their way to open a post that they can tell is a waste of time just from the subject line. If I see a subject line that's like 'Is Turbonator effective?' I'm not even going to open it. Yet, people clearly do take the time to open these threads, and not only do they take the time to open it -- you'll most likely see a ton of replies flaming the guy for wasting their time. Well if it's such a waste of time, why did they take the time to flame him? The answer is simple. People enjoy being negative to other people. This 'it's a waste of my time' is just a pretext, an excuse, for people to be be negative. Let's face it, plenty of people in this world boost their own self-esteem by coming down on others. It makes them feel like a big man. Some people get off on being critical of others. I call this 'gratuitous negativity'.
So that's really what I was trying to point out when I started this thread. When people post dumb stuff, I have no problem with someone replying with 'Do a search'. But all too often, what I see is outright flaming insults and negativity. And it's SO obvious that some of these people doing the flaming are enjoying it. Yet they have the audacity to try to justify their flaming by saying that it's because the OP is wasting their time. It it's such a waste of time, why go out your way to flame? And indeed, aren't all these flames contributing to the massive amount of wasted 'meeting minutes'? Isn't it making the search function even harder to use? Because now when someone does a search, they have to wade through large amounts of flame posts.
So that's really what I was trying to point out when I started this thread. When people post dumb stuff, I have no problem with someone replying with 'Do a search'. But all too often, what I see is outright flaming insults and negativity. And it's SO obvious that some of these people doing the flaming are enjoying it. Yet they have the audacity to try to justify their flaming by saying that it's because the OP is wasting their time. It it's such a waste of time, why go out your way to flame? And indeed, aren't all these flames contributing to the massive amount of wasted 'meeting minutes'? Isn't it making the search function even harder to use? Because now when someone does a search, they have to wade through large amounts of flame posts.
Originally Posted by Semtex
The thing that bothers me though is that I often see someone post something stupid, and then everyone just piles on to flame him or make fun of him or whatever. The irony is that this is often done in the vein of 'You're wasting everyone's time you NOOB!'.
Addressing the rest of your comment, I understand the fustration but do not feel sympathetic towards it. I can assure you that many previous newcomers have voiced their opinions and started threads exactly like this one. They are no longer available for viewing because the adminstrators "cleaned" up the forum some months ago. This is why there is a large banner at the bottom of the forum that states, "Disrespectful members will be Banned". I might add that the "flaming/hashing" being discussed in this thread is nothing compared to what use to go on. This is child's play compared to the flaming that use to be administered. Kcobean can vouch for this. What it all boils down to is older members are not going to over look a useless or redundant thread. Once you have spent some time on this forum you will begin to understand. You can hold me to this one. Yes it takes time to post negative comments in useless threads, yes it is human psyche to take pleasure in the failure of others, yes people enjoy kicking others when they are down. This is all human nature. Complaints such as yours have been made over and over. The fact is, it will not change how people think or react to others on the forum. The forum rules and TOU's are in place as a guide line. Moderators enforce them as they see fit. If a TOU is broken repeatedly, the appropriate measure of disipline will be taken.
Val
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Well, just for clarification, I'm not actually frustrated by this. I just think people need to be called out when they're being gratuitously negative is all. I think of it sorta like bullying. When one kid bullies another, I think someone needs to say something. To remain silent is, imho, to tacitly consent and approve of the negative behavior. And to be completely honest, I think your 'This is all human nature' remark is no different than parents of bullies who refuse to discipline their kids for beating on other kids. Think about it. How do such parents typically justify tolerating their kid's abusive behavior? "Oh, kids will be kids."
Originally Posted by semtex
Well, just for clarification, I'm not actually frustrated by this. I just think people need to be called out when they're being gratuitously negative is all. I think of it sorta like bullying. When one kid bullies another, I think someone needs to say something. To remain silent is, imho, to tacitly consent and approve of the negative behavior. And to be completely honest, I think your 'This is all human nature' remark is no different than parents of bullies who refuse to discipline their kids for beating on other kids. Think about it. How do such parents typically justify tolerating their kid's abusive behavior? "Oh, kids will be kids."
When I came to this forum, I SEARCHED for everything I wanted to know.
I BROWSED through countless old threads and dug up some great info.
When I still wasn't satisfied with the results of searching and browsing, *THEN* I would ask a question.
I have NEVER posted anything as lame as "what is the best intake" or "what is the best exhaust." Nor even "Thinking about going turbo. What do I need?"
I have NEVER made it my business to start threads asking ambiguous questions which can only yield subjective, opinionated answers such as "what is the best intake?".
New members who are too lazy to search, for example those who start new threads with "I searched but couldn't find anything. Will the MREV2 and 5/16" spacer give me the best gains?" drive me absolutely NUTS.
Some new members even have the NERVE to talk back when you tell them to search.
Now that I'm a moderator I have become a bit more diplomatic and I help new members out by searching FOR them, since I have access to the boolean search etc.
Here's the bottom line: I started out by searching from day #1 and still continue to do so. If I can do it, then so can other new members.
I BROWSED through countless old threads and dug up some great info.
When I still wasn't satisfied with the results of searching and browsing, *THEN* I would ask a question.
I have NEVER posted anything as lame as "what is the best intake" or "what is the best exhaust." Nor even "Thinking about going turbo. What do I need?"
I have NEVER made it my business to start threads asking ambiguous questions which can only yield subjective, opinionated answers such as "what is the best intake?".
New members who are too lazy to search, for example those who start new threads with "I searched but couldn't find anything. Will the MREV2 and 5/16" spacer give me the best gains?" drive me absolutely NUTS.
Some new members even have the NERVE to talk back when you tell them to search.
Now that I'm a moderator I have become a bit more diplomatic and I help new members out by searching FOR them, since I have access to the boolean search etc.
Here's the bottom line: I started out by searching from day #1 and still continue to do so. If I can do it, then so can other new members.
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Originally Posted by vo7848
Unfortunately I disagree with you. Perhaps it's because I'm from the old school. I wouldn't see a reason for a parent to beat their kid because he is stronger or more dominant than other children.
And what do you mean there are no moderators who will reprimand other members? Are you telling me that the 'Disrespectful members will get banned' warning is a hollow threat? Besides, I never said anything about moderators reprimanding abusive posters. I was talking about members calling other members out when they're being negative just for the sake of being a-holes. Maybe I should have used a slightly different analogy where kids step up and object when they see other kids being abused, instead of talking about what the parent does.
Last edited by semtex; Sep 15, 2006 at 04:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Wired 24/7
When I came to this forum, I SEARCHED for everything I wanted to know.
I BROWSED through countless old threads and dug up some great info.
When I still wasn't satisfied with the results of searching and browsing, *THEN* I would ask a question.
I have NEVER posted anything as lame as "what is the best intake" or "what is the best exhaust." Nor even "Thinking about going turbo. What do I need?"
I have NEVER made it my business to start threads asking ambiguous questions which can only yield subjective, opinionated answers such as "what is the best intake?".
New members who are too lazy to search, for example those who start new threads with "I searched but couldn't find anything. Will the MREV2 and 5/16" spacer give me the best gains?" drive me absolutely NUTS.
Some new members even have the NERVE to talk back when you tell them to search.
Now that I'm a moderator I have become a bit more diplomatic and I help new members out by searching FOR them, since I have access to the boolean search etc.
Here's the bottom line: I started out by searching from day #1 and still continue to do so. If I can do it, then so can other new members.
I BROWSED through countless old threads and dug up some great info.
When I still wasn't satisfied with the results of searching and browsing, *THEN* I would ask a question.
I have NEVER posted anything as lame as "what is the best intake" or "what is the best exhaust." Nor even "Thinking about going turbo. What do I need?"
I have NEVER made it my business to start threads asking ambiguous questions which can only yield subjective, opinionated answers such as "what is the best intake?".
New members who are too lazy to search, for example those who start new threads with "I searched but couldn't find anything. Will the MREV2 and 5/16" spacer give me the best gains?" drive me absolutely NUTS.
Some new members even have the NERVE to talk back when you tell them to search.
Now that I'm a moderator I have become a bit more diplomatic and I help new members out by searching FOR them, since I have access to the boolean search etc.
Here's the bottom line: I started out by searching from day #1 and still continue to do so. If I can do it, then so can other new members.
