jak can you tell us exactly what you bought and how much that was? mainly just for my own benefit as im gonna be doing this as well. i actually like this price.

 

he supplied the pistons, rods, camshafts, short throw shifter, clutch and flywheel. everything else used is listed on the invoice.

 

I'm new to all of this but will be going through the same process this summer. I've been on these boards for about a year now learning as much as I can but I have a couple of questions about the invoice.

How necessary is the boost controller?

I'm assuming the technosquare reflash was for the cams? Moving the idle up maybe? Otherwise I dont understand the need for a reflash.

Without those two alone you're at $1,000 less than what you paid. I'm not questioning the invoice, I'm just curious. I've followed a lot of your posts phunk and have nothing but respect for your knowledge and the work that you have done.

From the look of everything jak it looks like you are building a beast. I was going to go that route originally and I'll be honest I realistically expecting to pay at the very least $15k and that was a low ball estimate. Compared to what I've been quoted at other shops the invoice doesn't look too far off at all.

 

boost controller is required if you want in cabin control of your boost at all times.

Reflash was for the cams. We tried it without the reflash and the car would die almost every time you let off the gas. So the reflash was for higher rev limit (7300rpm) and higher idle (900rpm).

 

Actually, for the ultimate setup providing both performance AND reliability, you should get the M&Ms with the peanuts ALREADY inserted inside the M&Ms. For the given application and operating parameters described therein, that is. Pursuant to this, the more advanced product (peanut and M&M fully integrated from the get go) that I highly recommend is produced via the newest cutting edge technology, direct injection engine method. This More Power Method (now copyrighted by me, so don’t try to swipe it and sell it as your own, Peter!) allows the engine to produce both more torque and horsepower at the same time! And increases fuel economy between 10 to 15%! At the same and on slightly less total manifold pressure! Mostly from the relatively higher compression ratio utilized in direct injection engine technology. And quicker throttle response as well. Yet, at the same time, retains superior engine and drive train reliability. Without, and this is an extremely important caveat, having to run the much higher priced 100/105 octane racing gasoline for perceived safety issues regarding detonation. Pesky detonation which would, or course, result in almost certain engine damage and complete engine failure highly likely.

I submit and recommended my procedures and method as being superior. Instead of the separate bags of peanuts and M&Ms method that was utilized by Charles during the turbo installation in question here. Per his own post and in his own words! Charles’ method, though not entirely discounted in the standard, available research literature, does require you to use both hands in order to stuff your pie hole with the same twin turbo like peanut/M&M psi and dynamic efficiency, i.e., a bag of the differing consistency confections in each hand in conjunction with your lap, which is common to both methods. My method frees up one hand to shift gears and cuddle with your girlfriend and some more besides. While only the one hand is supplying the M&M/peanut body fuel under forced induction at the kit’s standard psi. That is an efficiency gain of 50%!! In my own personal testing, I was able to switch hands and gain 2 strokes at the same time! So there!

I mostly stumbled on all this via a prior post of Peter's that examined the weaknesses of our stock fuel system in very close detail. And an entire laundry list ofa thread by Charles concerning an advanced fuel return/recirculation system of his own design. (So I may have to pay them royalties, but that will be decided by the court system in the fullness of time.) Even though I don’t think even Peter or Charles realized ALL the ramifications of their respective posts at the time! That’s where my clearly superior intellect came in! And the rest is now…history! But I did not just take Peter’s or Charles’ word for all this! Hell NO! Back off guys, I am a SCIENTIST! I subsequently performed over 20 dyno tuned runs in order to verify and prove my theory before I dared post all this. In order to standup under even the closest and most withering beady eyed, bean counter, pencil neck scrutiny that this forum has to offer! Tuan is secretly using my method and has pulled over 500 wheel hp with no detonation, reliability problems, or drivability issues! (I demanded that Tuan and I use the “Cone Of Silence” during our communications – that’s why no one else knows about all this. he he ) Only time will tell the long term effects, but so far so good!

But, since Charles has a lot of experience with all this and has a proven track record over time, I give him the benefit of the doubt here... But I still say his method is outdated and clearly inferior when compared to mine. I am truly a legend in my own mind! Therefore, yeah, all things considered, including the fuel supply weakness issues and number of hands usually required with our relatively high stock compression ratio, a.k.a., VQ engine, you got a real good deal. Am I a freaking genius or do I merely have a keen sense of the obvious?!? Or perhaps I am over thinking this entire issue? Is it time for me to take a break from reading this forum so much? Since I have now totally revolutionized 350Z forced induction, I think I deserve a break. Glad I could step in and clear all of this up.

 

Uh oh...! The first post on this thread about peanuts and M&Ms sounded like Charles billed him for a bag of peanuts and a bag of M&Ms. I.e. the peanuts were not contained WITHIN the M&Ms, themselves per se. Per jak's post, "I found a line item where they ar charging me $61.81 for a tank of 100 octane fuel and 2 bags of peanuts and M&Ms. YES the peanuts and M&Ms are on the bill!". And if you have an ounce of sporting blood in you, anywhere, you'll have to agree that the context of this post supports my supposition in my prior post. BUT. Upon re reading Charles' subsequent posts, it appears that it is just possible that the 2 bags, in question, did contain the peanuts and M&Ms fully integrated as one entity. In which case...nevermind...

 

Invoice looks pretty accurate to me. What everyone has to realize is that there are always a bunch of little add-ons and necessities that pile up very quickly and really jack up the bill of projects like this at no fault of the shop or installer.

 

Thanks everyone for your opinions. It seems that most of you think that this is fair. I will be paying Charles the full amount and hopefully picking up the car sometime on Monday.

I wanted to make a point about why I asked for your opinions in the first place. The issue was never about the money. If Charles had told me up front that the project would cost $10,000.00 and I was convinced his reputation, honesty, and integrity were of the highest standards, I probably would have paid that.

The fact of the matter is that Charles quoted me a total of $2500.00 to do this job plus the TS re-flash and boost controller. Of course he said that the figure was a "ball park" number and he would not know until he did the job.

There is a big difference to me between $3500.00 (with the re-flash and boost controller) and $7000.00. Hence the request for everyone’s opinions.

This amount of discrepancy in price goes straight towards honesty and integrity. If Charles isn't completely open and honest about what the actual costs are, how do I know he is going to be open and honest about what he does to the car?

As an example if you look at the last page of the invoice you will see a total charge of $252.50 for removing the resonators from the Borla exhaust. Two days ago, Thursday, Charles told me "I will charge you $75.00 to do this". How can trust and integrity be promoted when the cost is tripled two days later?

In Charles's defense he claims that this is just how this industry works, Low ball the prices, hype the product, get the business, and then charge more later. I would agree with Charles that this is in fact the way things are done in my experience with the Z.

JIC did the same thing when they did not provide all of the parts required to install their suspension correctly. What did JIC do? Nothing. Their attitude was we got your money, good luck.

HRE did the same thing when I ordered wheels specifically for a big brake kit. This was printed right on the invoice. The wheels came and did not fit the brakes. What did HRE do? Nothing. Their response was "we didn't know how to do that. You got what you paid for".

AP Racing did the same thing. The four wheel brake kit I got was out of spec. The lug studs were not long enough to thread a lug nut onto. AP had the brake specs published all over the net and in advertisements. What did AP do? Nothing. They freely admitted there mistake, changed their published specs, and said it is "not our problem".

What did I get for $1750.00 I spent on the JICs? Nothing usable.
What did I get for the $4800.00 I spent on the HREs? Nothing usable.
What did I get for the $3900.00 I spent on the APs? Nothing usable.
What did I get for the $2500.00 Charles quoted me? Nothing usable.

I have had my fair share of experience with building this car. I think it is disgraceful that part manufactures and tuners alike hype and sell products and services knowing that the prices charged or quoted are not inclusive.

I bought this car to build as a fun pass time. The notion that this industry is built on lies, deception, and dishonesty makes this pass time no longer fun.

I guess I've had it. I will probably trailer this car home and put it up for sale with less than 8000 miles on it because there has been no enjoyment for me with it.

I have been a member here before Zs were even being produced. I gained a lot of valuable knowledge from the community over the years and met and talked to a lot of really great people. That part of this endeavor has been good.

Thanks again for all of the opinions and for listening to my rant.

Jeff

 

WOW.....sorry to hear that.

When I was considering this, I posted this 4/2004:

$14,060 for GReddy and gages ??

 

I do not claim to have ever estimated $2500 for all this work, nor were there ever any physical estimates made. Obviously there was misunderstanding in voice conversation, such as how you thought I said $400 for engine in AND out when I know I would never quote that not even on an easy car to work on.

"In Charles's defense he claims that this is just how this industry works, Low ball the prices, hype the product, get the business, and then charge more later.

I never claimed this at all. This is your perception of the business. I have personally never seen an estimate that includes all those small items individualized. I do remember telling you that I do not overcharge and that billing would be fair, and anyone here will agree that my invoice is very fair.

"As an example if you look at the last page of the invoice you will see a total charge of $252.50 for removing the resonators from the Borla exhaust. Two days ago, Thursday, Charles told me "I will charge you $75.00 to do this". How can trust and integrity be promoted when the cost is tripled two days later?"

As we have already discussed a few times previously, I will be adjusting your bill for this. I already told you that some of the last things put on the invoice was done in a rush before I left for the night and that I simply put in 1.5 hours of fab time which is how long my in-house fab guy billed me for the labor. I told you I would adjust it to meet the $75. The other charge was for material to do the job. High quality stainless pipes are not cheap... how much does a set of test pipes cost? Cause thats what we just made to eliminate 2 resonators in the exhaust.

Obviously this is all the result of miscommunication. I am used to dealing with most my customers who understand that what I quote to do a job is the physical labor costs to do the job, and that I cannot possibly estimate all the small things that end up being needed before the project is complete.

I have a customer whos has an insane project we have been building with an invoice of over $20,000... and he is totaly cool with where it is and it will be another 4-5 grand before its done... but I guess I am just used to guys like this who have built cars before and understand all the costs that are considered "hidden".

What it comes down to is my billing is fair, and it wouldnt get done cheaper anywhere else.

This problem could have been easily avoided if I followed my standard practice of weekly invoice updates via emailing of PDF copies of the paperwork. For some reason, I did not do that with this project.

Obviously by coming out in the open and saying that I built the car and here is the invoice... I have nothing to hide, and I never intended to hide anything... so those of you considering having me build your car take note of that invoice and prepared for these hidden charges... unfortunatly this game is not as cheap as those who have never played it would like to think.

My first concern has been for Jeff to be happy with the result, and even tho he is paying the bill and being unsatisified... I will be paying out of my own pocket now for dyno tuning since Jeff is not willing to pay for it. Sometimes I wonder how worth it these full builds really are for a business... without an understanding customer and paying to do things right, its really more risk then is worth it some times.

If you are so willing to pay for what is fair, then why dont you just look deep into that invoice and see that I am only getting 3500-3600 in labor for it all... the rest is totaly out of my control. There is no need for this to have ever reached this point. You could have easily called other shops to verify that I am not ripping you off and then you could have just seen that no one is trying to take you here, and your not being overcharged... if anything your being undercharged... I discounted a lot of the labor more than I even should have. Your car has made my business little to NO money at all... by the time this car is done and gone I probably made $1200 after paying my mechanics and all the time put into the car that I could have put into other cars for customers that are more understanding and not being paranoid of me trying to rip them off. The amount of money made versus the risk involved with full build up completed projects is like starting an insurance company and immediatly getting a million dollar claim... there is a lot more to loose then there is to gain and its done as a service for the customer and if all goes 100% perfectly then us shop owners can only hope to make a few dollars in the end to pay the EXTREME overhead of owning a shop. Trying paying $10,000 a month in bills and making just over a grand on a car that sits for that long... I could have done 3 header installs and dyno ran a few cars... been done with 1/3 the time invested, and came out with more profit from my time.

Sorry you are so unhappy with this all, I hope you at least enjoy the car.

 

Simple solution. Make a quote and stick to it.

Don't do me any favors. Don't tune the car if you feel you are not being paid enough. I agreed to pay you in full what more do you want?

Jeff

 

Man this thread got long fast.

Charles, I still plan to take my 350Z to you after seeing this. Even Kyle @ SGP agrees the pricing is fair and that his shop would have charged MORE.

I'm glad to have seen some prices though so I know what to expect.

On a side note, what Borla exhaust is it? The true-dual?

 

Did you buy any of this on a credit card. You know you can return the item to the seller and refuse payment on your bill .... rather simple in fact, since you stated that you recieved goods that were delivered in unsatisfactory condition.

No offense but you are coming off as an extremely negative person here.

Look at the bright side, you will soon have one of the most powerful Zs in the country built by a very well respected shop.

 

99% of the time, if you privately work with a shop or retailer if there is an issue, it will get resolved quickly. Case in point is Gurgen. Arias took care of him becuase he privately discussed his situation with them.

Were my comments biased? Absolutely NOT. I have never and will never back up Charles or anyone else for that matter if I think that they are wrong. And after reviewing the invoice closely, this was a very fair job, and you left out so many details, and made Charles look bad in the process.

Do you think any shop or retailer is going to want to sell you stuff, or work on your car if you have a problem?? Like I said, 99% of the time, a problem can be solved by talking privately to the persons involved. Do people make mistakes? Absolutely.....buts they also solve problems too.

Sorry this had to come to this....and I hope you will reconsider selling your car. Your have the potential for 600whp on your hands!

 

I think they is an oil starvation issue in the process of making these M&Ms.

 

Sharif, I don't think posting on here was wrong.

However, I DO think he should have left names out of this. And asked what the going rates were for everything to compare.

And then if it was way off, talk to Charles personally and see what could be done.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Well, you have a point there, but when he made a reference to me being biased, I think it was pretty clear that Charles was the mechanic...since I have a business relationship with him.

 

Charles has more than gone out of his way for this community and still has my greatest respects. Jak, as many people have already told you this bill is fair and there is no need to drag this on.


Charles, I will still see you in May for you can retune my Z!!!!
Looking forward to it everyday!!

 

I never posted names. READTHE THREAD I was only asking for opinions. Charles chimed in with his own name. This could have been avoided with a quote and sticking to that quote no matter how fair the price is.

I am paying the bill in full because I respect everyones opinion on the fairness of the price.

Jeff

 

I did "READ THE THREAD".

My mistake, I thought you posted the shop name.

Hmm, the whole situation just seems like miscommunication. IMO it may have been avoided by emailing him prior to the build-up and asking for real average numbers for everything. Asking on the phone might make him rush to come up with something, with email he has time to figure everything up. Just my opinion.

And in my experience, shops always quote lower than what the end price will cost, i've only come across ONE shop in my area that gives you a quote (even if it sounds kind of harsh) and stick to it or under it.