Hey all. I’d like to apologize for my earlier asinine post as a weak attempt at humor. At the point in which I made my post, it seemed that everyone was assuring jak that he was getting a good deal and at more than reasonable prices from one of the top 350Z shops around. That’s the way that I felt as well. It really sounded that everything was cool so maybe some levity might be nice.

Right after my post though, jak posted again and it became apparent that jak had some real real serious concerns still unresolved. If I had known that jak was about to post that he was still very upset about all this, I certainly would not have tried to inject silly BS humor.

At this point, I really think that as jak thinks all this over and sorts it out mentally, he will slowly feel better that there was some confusion and miscommunication, but he is getting very reasonable prices for very extensive modifications. Bottom line.

In jaks defense, this may be the first or one of the first times he has ventured into modifications this extensive. It can be very scary especially if you do not have a longer background with which to recognize the typical costs and complexities associated with a project like this. And there’s no way to get that experience other than by gritting your teeth and doing it. I think that jak will feel much better and feel reassured when he gets his car and experiences the warp drive like power that his buildup will result in. That makes all the difference in the world! Been there, done that, have a few scars to show for it, but a HELL lot of more pleasure as well. The first time I had a turbo car (my old Eclipse GSX turbo) modified – well not quite this extensively – but fairly close – about half way through the project and way before I got to drive the car and experience the thrilling result – again about half way through – I second guessed myself and asked myself what in the hell I was thinking of?!? Spending this much $ on an already pretty expensive ride! I think most of us at some time or another has second guessed an entire project like this. But then, as some have already posted…I finally got the thing finished…drove the car…and heard that wonderful pssssssht of vented boost between upshifts…and the front shocks unload as the front end lifts up a bit, and the rear end squats…during that Atlas booster type acceleration…and suddenly I had this huge $hit eating grin that lasted for about a week! And this grin came back every time I dusted a Mustang, Corvette, or Camaro with twice as big an engine as I had. Real soon after I got my car finished and to the drag strip, I beat a guy in a heads up race that had just built his engine, a 454 cubic inch big block, in his ’69 Chevelle . He, accompanied by about a dozen other people, came RUNNING across the pit area after the race and screamed, “My air cleaner box is bigger than your whole damn engine!… and you beat me by 7 car lengths or better!!!! How in the hell can you do that?!? OK, now the whole project was all worth while.

Sometimes things are darkest just before a positive outcome if one will just hang in there and see it through. Hopefully this will turn out this way. I understand the doubts and fears. I have helped other people do projects like this, also. Rest assured, jak, that in Charles, you’ve got one of the very best taking care of your “baby”. And I think most of us think of our ride as our baby when it is taken apart and scattered all over the work bay during the project. I think this time next week, jak, you’ll feel one hell of a lot better and differently about the whole thing. Good luck!

 

I don't know too much about how much shops charge, but when I did my install for my pistons and rods, I went ahead and got my Civic turbocharged to. They did not make me pay hardly anything for the install of the turbo kit because they said they already had the motor out for me. I know that the price of putting in the TT kit is more exprensive, but I don't think $1500 for installing the kit on the car should be that high. Maybe $1000. But that kit does come with alot more stuff to do with the fuel system, but when they did my turbo kit they put all the fuel system and new AEM pulleys on for free since they had to put everything back together anyways. I know you guys don't make that much, but we don't either so making us pay for stuff like putting back on the fuel rails or other stuff little that has to be taken off and put back on anyways if it was stock is kind of giving some guys a negative attitude towards the install business. But don't take this the wrong way because I agree with both sides on different things. It would sound better through if you told him everything that was done at the machine shop. I know that I am going to go the SGP route and buy a built motor. Hope you guys makeup and become friends so you can make that car one of those 600hp beasts.

 

I definetly take Zman's stance on this. If a shop quotes me $2k for a turbo install because they want to "do me a favor" and then slams me with a 7k bill... well I would not pay. The turbo kit would be off that car and I would go somewhere else. Unfortunately, this situation is not so cut and dry. There was no quote prior to the work being done. YOU SHOULD HAVE A QUOTE before you give your car to anyone! And no a quote isn't an excuse to get a card number and then double the price later on. Any reputable shop can research (look at what previous installs cost) and estimate pricing to at least within 1k. And the customer should be informed that he/she may have to pay up to an additional 1k. I think the whole problem here was that people got lazy. There should have been pricing ironed out from the start and every and all additions to the order should have been itemized and approved by the buyer (Cell Phone). This isn't an attack to anyone in particular just my little rant. I sure would hate to be in Jeff's shoes, it's a sad day when a fellow Z'er has left the scene.

 

Yep, forget about it!! Hey my buds Z shop just completed a built motor APS TT 350Z and the total bill was $37,000. Shop proccured all the parts and every last single thing required, and including Stoptechs and APS exhaust and a bunch of other ****. The secondary injection system is still comming. All parts came to 20K. So that must mean 17K in labor. Oh and shop is APS distributor too so it even got that action. Even has his own load dyno. Car was there for a month.
I guess shop is lucky because the customer was ecstatic and happily paid the bill and even gave the shop top billing in a recent thread here.

Anyway for jak, dude you got a killer deal, and so did the guy I just talked about so be HAPPY, hug your mechanic and pay your bill with confidence and for God sakes don't sell the Z!!! You got a supercar for dirt cheap

 

$1500 is a good price for a turbo kit install. The 7k wasn't just the turbo install, I hope everyone is realizing this.

 

someone used the term "coming to jaks defense"...

the point of this thread wasnt so much to put anyone at all in a defensive position. it was to get the public opinion and survey if the pricing was fair or not.

we all know that i obviously ****ed up by not making it more clear how expensive this really is. I should have known better that not everyone in the world is going to know that the turbo kit install part of the job is actually the least of the concerns, and that the engine build itself really is the big part of the job.

johanna1: I have built plenty of hondas (just sold the motor out of my civic that made 415fwhp on 93 octane), and I would install 3 greddy turbo systems on civics/integras for the same price as a single install of a Greddy or APS twin turbo on a 350z. If you think $1500 sounds high to install turbos on a 350z, ask me what I would charge with the engine STILL in the car...

Everyone else, I appreciate the feedback

 

Life sure is funny. It ALL depends on your perspective... If I had a good APS TT installed for $1500 on my 350Z I'd be as excited as a little kid at Christmas time. Magic. The best kind. Elated really. Scratch that, more excited than I can ever remember at Christmas. Santa never brought me anything close to an APS TT, but Santa's one hell of good guy in his own right. I am going to probably settle for the slightly lesser APS single T this summer, but I am just as elated about that. It'll be pretty impressive in it's own right. Just hang in there another week or so and I bet you'll be kickin' a$$ in your APS TT Z and takin' names, jak. ***** slappin' Porshe's and the like! With a built motor and all, you're gonna be way ahead of most of us who have been workin' for decades and dreamin', sigh. Enjoy it man. I have had 400 hp to the wheels before and hope to soon again. It's gonna be a rush. And that's a fact, jak!

Since you had the engine out of the car for the build anyway, you got a way better price than most of us will get. My advantage is that I'll spread this out over a long time, in stages, but I'll wind up paying more. jak is getting hit with a bigger overall bill at first, but he will pay a lot less in the long run. And have a lot less down time getting it all done at once. The way your doing this jak is the smartest way and the way many of us would do it if we could.

 

My shop charges $3000 flat for the APS TT kit installed in the car.No hidden costs just $3000 on top of the kit. As far as this kid thinking he was paying $2500 for all that work, c'mon nobody is that stupid.He knew what he was getting into. Just proves a point that "PEOPLE ONLY HEAR WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR" At some point i'm sure the words $2500 came out of charles mouth for something but not pertaining to the whole job and the kid just heard $2500 and went with it. I personally do not like the itemized bill charles made.I simply would have listed it as:
Remove and reinstall engine and transmission $XXXX
Install APS TT KIT- $XXXX
Motor Rebuild machine costs $XXXX
Install guages and accesories $XXXX
Something along those lines..Cause if I were to sit there and itemize vacume fittings and hose and wire,it wouldnt be worth my time either..And it looks very "NICKLE AND DIME" so to speak.
Just my opinion,but I could tell you I would have quoted this kit $10,000 for the job from the start and discounted what I could..

 

$3000 for an APS install. It takes you 40+ hours? Sounds kind of high. Most shops install greddy for $1500-$2000

 

I have not yet installed a bare APS TT kit for a customer, so I dont know exactly what I would charge. But I do charge just over 2000 for a Greddy install... and an APS install is going to be more. There is easy another few hours for install.

Not only that but installing a turbo kit on the 350z is a lot more than a labor charge... Honestly if someone installed one of these turbo kits on the 350z and didnt use heat wrap or sleeving on at least 10 spots, then someone isnt very picky... There are many "contact" spots that need to be addressed to avoid rapid wear and failure.

At my shop you would see the heat sleeving and wraping itemized on the install... but it sounds like with 10secapsttz this would be just tossed in with the install as he prefers not to itemize everything.

it really is just so true that you almost always get what you pay for, as long as you are dealing with honest and knowledgable people.

I would have NO PROBLEM finding 40 hours of work to do installing an APS TT kit... not to mention keep in mind that most of these installs are not being done by one mechanic... meaning if your still only getting billed 35-40 hours for the week, then your really only paying for one guy even tho there was 2 on it... on guy could take even longer.

After installing a few APS kits im sure that an installer would become familiar enough to knock out a good 5 hours of struggling... however no shop really knows if they are ever going to see more than one or two or three... you just never know... so its not always fair to the business to discount the labor just because we know we are going to get faster at it later... what if there is no later and the trend moves to another system and we dont see another APS for 2 years...

performance shops have the lowest labor rate in existence when compared to any other specialty service. This is only because there are no official certifications and there are too many wannabe's in the industry.

On a side note and somewhat related to the above, I just spent over $3000 to spread out three visits sitting in a chair for a total of 2.5 hours to be in the worst pain i ever experienced just to save one tooth with hope and expectation of it to last me another five years then I can spent another 3 grand on an implant.... I never expected it to cost so much, and I was never QUOTED anything but I knew for sure I wanted to keep my damn tooth for another few years so I went ahead with it and I cringed when I got the bill because I have NO DENTAL INSURANCE, but I didnt question anything and I just paid it and went on with my life knowing that I paid the best people in the area to do it and that the job got done as well as it was possible to get done and I CROSS MY FINGERS that the damn tooth hangs in there another five years, and if it doesnt its MY PROBLEM and I will have to pay for an implant.

How funny is it that I worked a LOT harder and 20x longer on this 350z... not only is the owner upset about the bill... but I bet he sure as hell isnt just crossing his fingers that this car lasts a few years like this... if anything ever goes wrong I am sure he will be FURIOUS and the entire world will hear about the story how he got ripped off and he will expect me to pay for everything...

I could have gone to cheaper specialists for my tooth... but I didnt, and I hope that the thing lasts that much longer. But thats it... nice... i have NO CONTROL over the situation at all... because I am not a specialist in this department. So now flip-mode to automotive performance, now in this industry half the customers think they have some kinda idea of what is actually going on, and then the other half just dont know anything at all... but in either situation they DEMAND CONTROL of the entire project.

just a little comparison, thats all... this industry doesnt allow for proper and fair labor pricing unless you are working on exotics (try looking what up it costs to twin turbo a viper).

 

$3000 is not high at all. It is average and don't forget you really have to pull the motor out to do the proper job and then put it back in. That has to be a major indertaking in itself. Could you do it and do you want to? You have to pay to play and that's what it's all about.

 

How many years of schooling and at what cost did your education come to in learning to do what you do? On average 4 years of college costs nearly $100 grand. Four years of medical school cost twice that. As an intern and a resident you earn peanuts and worked your a$$ off and until recent laws limited your work week to 80 hours (I unfortunately missed this and worked 100-120 hour work WEEKS not counting all the times I got out of bed in the middle of the night to go to the ER) .

How much malpractice do you pay a year. In my specialty, we routinely pay $150-200K a year.

Finally, I hope you realize that your dental bill (or your medical bill from the hospital) has little to do with what the doctor charges and what he gets (I'll expound on the difference in a minute). Most of what you mentioned went to the price of the implants and ancillary costs. Not what the dentist made to do the job necessarily.

People often ask me how much I charge for certain procedures. I honestly tell them I don't know (I really don't). But it wouldn't matter what I charged. I could charge a million dollars for a hip replacement but Medicare (or whatever insurance company I am working for) will pay me what THEY think is fair. Guess which amount is higher!

If the patient doesn't have insurance, I basically do it for free since you can't get blood from a stone. Oh yeah, I can STILL be sued by someone I did free work for BTW.

Look at it this way. It's as if I brought my car in to you for a TT install and engine rebuild. You say, I did the work, now you owe me $7000. Then I tell you, well...you did a nice job but I think the job you did is only worth $2000 and you'll take that amount and like it. Or, I could say "I think it's worth $2000 so I'll pay you 80% of that and you have to go after the other 20% yourself (good luck getting it by the way).

Just trying to put things in perspective since I was called "ignorant" in a previous post here.

 

Keep in mind going forced induction on a N/A car is not for the "short arms and deep pocket crowd". It seems like 90% of the kids that come in to my shop want something for nothing.Would YOU work for free? And like charles said, Out of $3000 labor I pay $30an hour to 2 mechanics for 25 hours..That alone is $1500 exactly 50% of my labor rates. Now add in the fact of overhead,water,electric,gas,ect..The cost of engine fluids,fittings,hoses,heat sheilding ect..And Im lucky if we clear $500 on the whole job. Now keep in mind the return rate of such a project is very high as little things will need to be adressed after several weeks. What most people do not realize is by going F/I you are decreasing the reliability of your car and thins can and will go wrong, Murphy's Law.
I mean for petes sake, just last week I had a kid come in my shop and want to trade me a paintball gun for suspension!!!WTF do I look like a PAWN shop???These are the type of characters you have to deal with on a daily basis. Most customers will not listen to your advise and will do what they want anyway and when their USED and ABUSED piece of equipment they brought you to install fails, they blame you..
The bottom line is that is costs $$$$ to play the game,otherwise EVERYONE would have fast cars.

 

If you pull the motor, it sounds right, but if don't have to then ???

Nothing wrong with pay to play, but pay, get ripped, play is something else. Not saying his price is a rip. His meaing 10secapsttz, not phunk

 

And how much did the gun that was held to your head to make you become a Doctor cost you??
There a crooked Doctors as well which leads to the high cost of insurance and high cost of medicare, so lets not even get started on an off topic argument.Bottom line is the kid new going in that the build up would cost more than $2500. He couldnt be that stupid not to know..

Just an example Dr Bonz.
How much did your complete supercharger install cost you?
Lets estimate shall we...
$700-800 for install
$200-400 tuning
$800 for AAM fuel system
$200 to install fuel system
$100 walbro pump
$600 injectors
$595 for reflash
$200 to retune/dyno
Now modestly estimating these items are in fact on your car or needed (lets just assume for arguments sake) the total on this alone is $3695 and you only have MAYBEE 400 hp.Not to mention the cost of the incomplete SC setup at around $4500-5000.
So $7000 is actually a low price to pay for a COMPLETE built motor installed and all the extras the kid added such as guages and boost controller...Phunks price was right on if not a little low..

Now if you could explain to me why the hospitals charge you $150 for a friggin TYLENOL in the Emergency room and get away with it then we can talk.

 

10secapsttz, when you broke it down in price and etc it made some sense.

The main thing is not money for a lot of people. It's just not getting ripped off. There are a lot of Dishonest Tuners out there, but we all known those types of shop don't last long. When I go to get my car worked on, I make sure I know people there and know people that gots similar installs done.

I suggest that anyone that gets there cars worked on by a shop have a good relationship with the owner. You are paying 65-70 an hour, so there is nothing wrong with having a little interview before hand and checking on some references.

We I searched for a Doctor for my little girl I picked 1 out of 6 I talked to. In the end I got one that answered pages at 1 AM when my daughter was having a fever.

Points are 1) Trust 2) Knowledgable 3) Location 4) Accessable.

 

Lets not attack Dr.Bonz here. He's good peoplez. Geogre Dub'ya is trying to help us and him out on the price.

 

NOBODY GOT RIPPED OFF HERE!!

I just hope these guys can get over this hill and have a good relationship. jak must get over this, IMO, because Charles is the best man he knows of to take care of his supercar. Because of the nature of FI jak needs him whether he knows it or not, but that's just my opinion.

 

Originally posted by Dr Bonz
How many years of schooling and at what cost did your education come to in learning to do what you do? On average 4 years of college costs nearly $100 grand. Four years of medical school cost twice that. As an intern and a resident you earn peanuts and worked your a$$ off and until recent laws limited your work week to 80 hours (I unfortunately missed this and worked 100-120 hour work WEEKS not counting all the times I got out of bed in the middle of the night to go to the ER) .

Education? We dont have books to learn this stuff from... it comes from experience. You have $200,000 invested in 4 years of schooling? Thats cool, I had over $200,000 invested in the first 2 years of business not including at what cost it may have took by the time I had enough experience to be considered a professional.

nice that you only earn peanuts as an intern, because we earn peanuts for the rest of our lives. I my case I live in my building... I wake up to customers and this shop and I go to bed to here right now. Sorry but your not getting my sympathy.

My mother is in the medical field as well, and has a lot more than 4 years of schooling she is also my accountant and friend... i know plenty about the lifestyle of the medical professional, and I will assure you that she is called in the middle of the night at least 3 times per week.


How much malpractice do you pay a year. In my specialty, we routinely pay $150-200K a year.

you get paid enough to pay it and the costs are passed on to the patient anyway. Should I start putting my liability insurance on my customers bills?

Finally, I hope you realize that your dental bill (or your medical bill from the hospital) has little to do with what the doctor charges and what he gets (I'll expound on the difference in a minute). Most of what you mentioned went to the price of the implants and ancillary costs. Not what the dentist made to do the job necessarily.

Of course, there is parts and labor, just like my industry... so what? Yea... most the money pays the bills just like my industry... you think I make that entire $3500 in labor... HA, nice one.

People often ask me how much I charge for certain procedures. I honestly tell them I don't know (I really don't). But it wouldn't matter what I charged. I could charge a million dollars for a hip replacement but Medicare (or whatever insurance company I am working for) will pay me what THEY think is fair. Guess which amount is higher!

Yes your field is a mess thats why you get paid more.

If the patient doesn't have insurance, I basically do it for free since you can't get blood from a stone. Oh yeah, I can STILL be sued by someone I did free work for BTW.

But if you can prove you did the job right, you are not likely to be held responsible anyway... and even if you did... here comes your MALPRACTICE INSURANCE you were just complaining about. Unfortunatly for me no company is going to insure the work a performance shop does... not only that but EVEN IF we do the job 100% perfect should anything go wrong we are still going to be held responsible.

Look at it this way. It's as if I brought my car in to you for a TT install and engine rebuild. You say, I did the work, now you owe me $7000. Then I tell you, well...you did a nice job but I think the job you did is only worth $2000 and you'll take that amount and like it. Or, I could say "I think it's worth $2000 so I'll pay you 80% of that and you have to go after the other 20% yourself (good luck getting it by the way).

What are you talking about?

Just trying to put things in perspective since I was called "ignorant" in a previous post here.

i said "speaking out of ignorance"... i never called you ignorant, reread the post.

 

I think doctors should get paid well, they mess up you could DIE or walk with a limp for the rest of your life. Tuners mess up and you have to replace an engine or other part.

Unless the car blows up :E