APS Intercooled Single Turbo vs Turbonetics Single Turbo
03-20-2005, 10:07 AM
#182
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Mia, I had that thought, too. Let's see how long it would last if it went the full "rated for 25,000 hours of continous duty" time span. (Assuming no break down) (Note to everyone: I'm a little hung over today, so if my math is wrong, please be nice and show me where I went wrong)
25,000 hours / 24(hours) = 1040 days (rounding down)
1040 days / 365 = 2.8 years *of continuous operation*
Since nobody's Z will ever be run 24/7, let's say that one was to drive their single turbo Z an average of 3 hours every single day (hopefully a lot more than most people's "average" daily driving time in a Z)
25,000 / 3 (hours) = 8330 days (rouding down)
8330 / 365 (days) = 22.8 years of run time with driving 3 hours per day.
Of course, this assumes that the pump lasts for it's entire 25,000 hour rated life span and never fails. Hopefully it's as reliable as it has been rated to be.
BUT...if it *did* fail, how would you know? Would your turbo be damaged? Is there a sensor attached to the pump that warns you if it fails? That would be a nice safeguard.
25,000 hours / 24(hours) = 1040 days (rounding down)
1040 days / 365 = 2.8 years *of continuous operation*
Since nobody's Z will ever be run 24/7, let's say that one was to drive their single turbo Z an average of 3 hours every single day (hopefully a lot more than most people's "average" daily driving time in a Z)
25,000 / 3 (hours) = 8330 days (rouding down)
8330 / 365 (days) = 22.8 years of run time with driving 3 hours per day.
Of course, this assumes that the pump lasts for it's entire 25,000 hour rated life span and never fails. Hopefully it's as reliable as it has been rated to be.
BUT...if it *did* fail, how would you know? Would your turbo be damaged? Is there a sensor attached to the pump that warns you if it fails? That would be a nice safeguard.
03-20-2005, 11:35 AM
#183
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Great thread guys,
4 Questions:
1.How much Power does the APS scavenge pump require?
2. What are the predicted engine bay temperatures once warmed up around the Turbocharger?
3.Do Aps have a similar warranty on the Turbo and Install as Turbonetics?
4.On the basis that many people will view the Single Turbo as a cost effective mod without building the engine, would it make sense to fit a smaller turbo rated to 380RWHP ie about the stock maximum the engine can take?
Cheers
Paul
4 Questions:
1.How much Power does the APS scavenge pump require?
2. What are the predicted engine bay temperatures once warmed up around the Turbocharger?
3.Do Aps have a similar warranty on the Turbo and Install as Turbonetics?
4.On the basis that many people will view the Single Turbo as a cost effective mod without building the engine, would it make sense to fit a smaller turbo rated to 380RWHP ie about the stock maximum the engine can take?
Cheers
Paul
03-20-2005, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
IMHO the more pumps the more places for failure....
Peter
03-20-2005, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by paul_kemshall
Great thread guys,
4.On the basis that many people will view the Single Turbo as a cost effective mod without building the engine, would it make sense to fit a smaller turbo rated to 380RWHP ie about the stock maximum the engine can take?
Cheers
Paul
4.On the basis that many people will view the Single Turbo as a cost effective mod without building the engine, would it make sense to fit a smaller turbo rated to 380RWHP ie about the stock maximum the engine can take?
Cheers
Paul
Essentially, both APS and Turbonetics are setting up a very driveable, not too laggy turbo setup that is capable for much more down the road, without a rework.
These setups are cost effective both now and later ... very nice
03-20-2005, 01:31 PM
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recharging your AC is not hard at all since R134a is used, its very simple to do.
Just breathing it in isn't too good
Just breathing it in isn't too good
Last edited by AxionF117; 03-20-2005 at 01:35 PM.
03-20-2005, 07:16 PM
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Regarding the opinion that a fuel return system is not needed short of 450 to 500 wheel HP:
Yes, its true that everybody that does not have a fuel return system has not blown up their engines. Just like it’s true that everyone does not immediately lose at Russian roulette, either. And how many of the ones that have not blown their engines, yet, are going to have engine problems short of that? Over the long run?. I just don’t need to wait for any more info because I have done the research and to me, it is obvious where the evidence leads me. And from what the crew chief and other engine builders are saying, it is not just a simple lean condition and it is not at 450-500 wheel HP that you are putting your engine in danger. That inconsistent fuel availability occurs at very little over stock hp. As the crew chief said, “We know that for a fact…”.
If you read all the quotes I posted on this, the man was saying those things…like he really means it... Lot stronger than just covering his… Everyone may not blow their engine immediately, but why go with a marginal at best or dangerous at worst fuel system set up? When one is available with the APS kit that is, if anything, over engineered for safety and rock solidness. I’d rather have some extra margins for safety built into the kit. Since men like the crew chief, who are at far higher levels of racing and R&D than you and I, are raising the red flag in no uncertain terms. On the fuel system inadequacies and the need for a return fuel system. At least we’ve been now been warned of the situation. I’ve heard the clarion call on this.
Each and everyone may not even long term blow their engines running a proven inconsistent fuel availability set up without a fuel return system. I guess what we have to ask ourselves is…do I feel lucky? Or do I want to take proven action that is available to remedy the problem proactively?
BTW, that was not just ten 350Z engines blown with Greddys in sum total everywhere. That was 10 blown engines with just that one kit that just that one guy knows of… Scary. Oh yeah, there have been many other blown engines and engine problems with the other kits without fuel return systems as well. We could start a whole new thread on that…but that’s a topic for another day. And IMO, many others are heading for mucho engine trouble long term over just this one fuel return system problem. If you don’t have one. I don’t intend to wait until even more engines are blown to get up to the learning curve on this.
But, I’ve had my say on this and everyone can make up their own minds. The upside is if you get one from the get go, then you already have the fuel return system needed if you ever do up the power over the stock kit levels. That everyone agrees is needed if you do go to those power levels. And one of the upgrades needed to eliminate the fuel inconsistency dangers at levels below that if you have any doubt.
But I too respect the opinions of others on this topic. And it's true that I believe in somewhat over engineering for engine safety and long term reliability when it comes to forced induction.
Yes, its true that everybody that does not have a fuel return system has not blown up their engines. Just like it’s true that everyone does not immediately lose at Russian roulette, either. And how many of the ones that have not blown their engines, yet, are going to have engine problems short of that? Over the long run?. I just don’t need to wait for any more info because I have done the research and to me, it is obvious where the evidence leads me. And from what the crew chief and other engine builders are saying, it is not just a simple lean condition and it is not at 450-500 wheel HP that you are putting your engine in danger. That inconsistent fuel availability occurs at very little over stock hp. As the crew chief said, “We know that for a fact…”.
If you read all the quotes I posted on this, the man was saying those things…like he really means it... Lot stronger than just covering his… Everyone may not blow their engine immediately, but why go with a marginal at best or dangerous at worst fuel system set up? When one is available with the APS kit that is, if anything, over engineered for safety and rock solidness. I’d rather have some extra margins for safety built into the kit. Since men like the crew chief, who are at far higher levels of racing and R&D than you and I, are raising the red flag in no uncertain terms. On the fuel system inadequacies and the need for a return fuel system. At least we’ve been now been warned of the situation. I’ve heard the clarion call on this.
Each and everyone may not even long term blow their engines running a proven inconsistent fuel availability set up without a fuel return system. I guess what we have to ask ourselves is…do I feel lucky? Or do I want to take proven action that is available to remedy the problem proactively?
BTW, that was not just ten 350Z engines blown with Greddys in sum total everywhere. That was 10 blown engines with just that one kit that just that one guy knows of… Scary. Oh yeah, there have been many other blown engines and engine problems with the other kits without fuel return systems as well. We could start a whole new thread on that…but that’s a topic for another day. And IMO, many others are heading for mucho engine trouble long term over just this one fuel return system problem. If you don’t have one. I don’t intend to wait until even more engines are blown to get up to the learning curve on this.
But, I’ve had my say on this and everyone can make up their own minds. The upside is if you get one from the get go, then you already have the fuel return system needed if you ever do up the power over the stock kit levels. That everyone agrees is needed if you do go to those power levels. And one of the upgrades needed to eliminate the fuel inconsistency dangers at levels below that if you have any doubt.
But I too respect the opinions of others on this topic. And it's true that I believe in somewhat over engineering for engine safety and long term reliability when it comes to forced induction.
Last edited by More Power; 03-20-2005 at 07:26 PM.
03-20-2005, 07:30 PM
#188
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Originally Posted by More Power
Regarding the opinion that a fuel return system is not needed short of 450 to 500 wheel HP:
Yes, its true that everybody that does not have a fuel return system has not blown up their engines. Just like it’s true that everyone does not immediately lose at Russian roulette, either. And how many of the ones that have not blown their engines, yet, are going to have engine problems short of that? Over the long run?. I just don’t need to wait for any more info because I have done the research and to me, it is obvious where the evidence leads me. And from what the crew chief and other engine builders are saying, it is not just a simple lean condition and it is not at 450-500 wheel HP that you are putting your engine in danger. That inconsistent fuel availability occurs at very little over stock hp. As the crew chief said, “We know that for a fact…”.
If you read all the quotes I posted on this, the man was saying those things…like he really means it... Lot stronger than just covering his… Everyone may not blow their engine immediately, but why go with a marginal at best or dangerous at worst fuel system set up? When one is available with the APS kit that is, if anything, over engineered for safety and rock solidness. I’d rather have some extra margins for safety built into the kit. Since men like the crew chief, who are at far higher levels of racing and R&D than you and I, are raising the red flag in no uncertain terms. On the fuel system inadequacies and the need for a return fuel system.
Each and everyone may not even long term blow their engines running a proven inconsistent fuel availability set up without a fuel return system. I guess what we have to ask ourselves is…do I feel lucky? Or do I want to take proven action that is available to remedy the problem proactively?
BTW, that was not just ten 350Z engines blown with Greddys in sum total everywhere. That was 10 blown engines with just that one kit that just that one guy knows of… Scary. Oh yeah, there have been many other blown engines and engine problems with the other kits without fuel return systems as well. We could start a whole new thread on that…but that’s a topic for another day. And IMO, many others are heading for mucho engine trouble long term over just this one fuel return system problem. If you don’t have one. I don’t intend to wait until even more engines are blown to get up to the learning curve on this. All it takes is a keen sense of the obvious, IMO. Even if every single engine has not blown…yet.
I don’t see how anyone can disagree that a good fuel return system is very good insurance, at lest. And logical prevention for a proven fuel system inadequacy that men at the responsibility level for multi hundred thousand dollar cars are telling us is needed.
But, I’ve had my say on this and everyone can make up their own minds. The upside is if you get one from the get go, then you already have the fuel return system needed if you ever do up the power over the stock kit levels. That everyone agrees is needed if you do go to those power levels. And one of the upgrades needed to eliminate the fuel inconsistency dangers at levels below that if you have any doubt.
But I too respect the opinions of others on this topic. And it's true that I believe in somewhat over engineering for engine safety and long term reliability when it comes to forced induction.
Yes, its true that everybody that does not have a fuel return system has not blown up their engines. Just like it’s true that everyone does not immediately lose at Russian roulette, either. And how many of the ones that have not blown their engines, yet, are going to have engine problems short of that? Over the long run?. I just don’t need to wait for any more info because I have done the research and to me, it is obvious where the evidence leads me. And from what the crew chief and other engine builders are saying, it is not just a simple lean condition and it is not at 450-500 wheel HP that you are putting your engine in danger. That inconsistent fuel availability occurs at very little over stock hp. As the crew chief said, “We know that for a fact…”.
If you read all the quotes I posted on this, the man was saying those things…like he really means it... Lot stronger than just covering his… Everyone may not blow their engine immediately, but why go with a marginal at best or dangerous at worst fuel system set up? When one is available with the APS kit that is, if anything, over engineered for safety and rock solidness. I’d rather have some extra margins for safety built into the kit. Since men like the crew chief, who are at far higher levels of racing and R&D than you and I, are raising the red flag in no uncertain terms. On the fuel system inadequacies and the need for a return fuel system.
Each and everyone may not even long term blow their engines running a proven inconsistent fuel availability set up without a fuel return system. I guess what we have to ask ourselves is…do I feel lucky? Or do I want to take proven action that is available to remedy the problem proactively?
BTW, that was not just ten 350Z engines blown with Greddys in sum total everywhere. That was 10 blown engines with just that one kit that just that one guy knows of… Scary. Oh yeah, there have been many other blown engines and engine problems with the other kits without fuel return systems as well. We could start a whole new thread on that…but that’s a topic for another day. And IMO, many others are heading for mucho engine trouble long term over just this one fuel return system problem. If you don’t have one. I don’t intend to wait until even more engines are blown to get up to the learning curve on this. All it takes is a keen sense of the obvious, IMO. Even if every single engine has not blown…yet.
I don’t see how anyone can disagree that a good fuel return system is very good insurance, at lest. And logical prevention for a proven fuel system inadequacy that men at the responsibility level for multi hundred thousand dollar cars are telling us is needed.
But, I’ve had my say on this and everyone can make up their own minds. The upside is if you get one from the get go, then you already have the fuel return system needed if you ever do up the power over the stock kit levels. That everyone agrees is needed if you do go to those power levels. And one of the upgrades needed to eliminate the fuel inconsistency dangers at levels below that if you have any doubt.
But I too respect the opinions of others on this topic. And it's true that I believe in somewhat over engineering for engine safety and long term reliability when it comes to forced induction.
What kits other than GReddy have blown their motor? Vortech? I can only think of one and he knew the error he made as soon as he did it. APS? None, why? The user has NO ACCESS to tuning it. ATI? Don't remember anyone on here but i've heard of problems. Stillen? None. SFR? None.
Just my .02 cents.
03-20-2005, 07:35 PM
#189
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So the APS Single Turbo Kit has....
1. OILPAN to solve the possible problem of oil starvation.........
2. CAS wire to solve the scatter problem.....
3. Upgraded fuel system........
4. Turbo achieves boost sooner.......
I also heard they might come up with a Y pipe adapter that would allow me to use my current Injen duel exhaust....is this true???? or less modifications
Can anyone in the STATE of HAWAII tune this kit?????
How long to install????
Cost???
When is it available????
Will there be an intro price???? and where do I buy it from....
1. OILPAN to solve the possible problem of oil starvation.........
2. CAS wire to solve the scatter problem.....
3. Upgraded fuel system........
4. Turbo achieves boost sooner.......
I also heard they might come up with a Y pipe adapter that would allow me to use my current Injen duel exhaust....is this true???? or less modifications
Can anyone in the STATE of HAWAII tune this kit?????
How long to install????
Cost???
When is it available????
Will there be an intro price???? and where do I buy it from....
03-20-2005, 07:45 PM
#190
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Originally Posted by redline350ZZ
I also heard they might come up with a Y pipe adapter that would allow me to use my current Injen duel exhaust....is this true???? or less modifications
My only problem = no cats!
Last edited by xxlbeerZ; 03-20-2005 at 07:48 PM.
03-20-2005, 07:51 PM
#191
I just wish yall would quit talking the kits up and release them already, if they are so wonderful and all, bring it, lets have em damnit! that goes for Turbonetics and APS. Lets get these kits out there on the streets and test all these theories. Anybody else agree?
03-20-2005, 07:55 PM
#192
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Originally Posted by redline350ZZ
So the APS Single Turbo Kit has....
1. OILPAN to solve the possible problem of oil starvation.........
2. CAS wire to solve the scatter problem.....
3. Upgraded fuel system........
4. Turbo achieves boost sooner.......
I also heard they might come up with a Y pipe adapter that would allow me to use my current Injen duel exhaust....is this true???? or less modifications
Can anyone in the STATE of HAWAII tune this kit?????
How long to install????
Cost???
When is it available????
Will there be an intro price???? and where do I buy it from....
1. OILPAN to solve the possible problem of oil starvation.........
2. CAS wire to solve the scatter problem.....
3. Upgraded fuel system........
4. Turbo achieves boost sooner.......
I also heard they might come up with a Y pipe adapter that would allow me to use my current Injen duel exhaust....is this true???? or less modifications
Can anyone in the STATE of HAWAII tune this kit?????
How long to install????
Cost???
When is it available????
Will there be an intro price???? and where do I buy it from....
2. Turbonetics hasn't decided if they are going to include one yet.
You need to go to http://www.unichip.us to find a dealer near you.
Probably 10-14hrs.
Maybe summer this year or fall.
03-20-2005, 07:57 PM
#193
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Originally Posted by tig488
I just wish yall would quit talking the kits up and release them already, if they are so wonderful and all, bring it, lets have em damnit! that goes for Turbonetics and APS. Lets get these kits out there on the streets and test all these theories. Anybody else agree?
03-20-2005, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tig488
I just wish yall would quit talking the kits up and release them already, if they are so wonderful and all, bring it, lets have em damnit! that goes for Turbonetics and APS. Lets get these kits out there on the streets and test all these theories. Anybody else agree?
You can buy the Turbonetics right now.
APS stated they have a long lead time for their fancy a$$ turbo, or else it'd be out already.
03-20-2005, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by nis350ztt
What kits other than GReddy have blown their motor? ...ATI? Don't remember anyone on here but i've heard of problems.
Just my .02 cents.
Haven't heard of blown engines with HKS, but it's a relatively new kit. I heard of so many tuning problems with the HKS supercharger problems due to the fuel system and/or just A/F ratio, that I just gave up on the HKS last fall. Several threads on this website. I think it was speedracer that pulled the kit off his car. At first HKS was denying there even was a problem. Last I heard they admitted there was a problem because so many were complaining that they could no longer ignore it. Like PumpedVA on this board. Last I heard HKS finally admitted there was a problem. And they were going to address it.
Again, regardless, even if it doesn't result in complete blown engines immediately, experienced engine builders have identified this as a problem that they say is a fact. A problem that puts you in danger for engine damage at anything much over stock HP.
Is it more prudent to correct the situation or wait till the situation has damaged if not blown your engine before you address it as an issue? Again to me, it's more about going with a clean optimally engineered set up rather than can you get away with ignoring a problem that has been identified and documented from the level of experts I've given.
03-20-2005, 08:28 PM
#197
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Originally Posted by tig488
they havent released it for the G yet.
03-20-2005, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by More Power
Any blown engines with ATI Prochargers? Oh yeah big time. A year ago… about Jan. '04, I raised that very question on 350Zmotoring.com. And a fire storm erupted in reply. Four to 6 owners replied immediately with engines blown over there and personal feedback given. Real serious feedback with colorful metaphors and expletives, ha. And these people were saying they had professional dyno tuning that they didn't mess with.
Haven't heard of blown engines with HKS, but it's a relatively new kit. I heard of so many tuning problems with the HKS supercharger problems due to the fuel system and/or just A/F ratio, that I just gave up on the HKS last fall. Several threads on this website. I think it was speedracer that pulled the kit off his car. At first HKS was denying there even was a problem. Last I heard they admitted there was a problem because so many were complaining that they could no longer ignore it. Like PumpedVA on this board. Last I heard HKS finally admitted there was a problem. And they were going to address it.
Again, regardless, even if it doesn't result in complete blown engines immediately, experienced engine builders have identified this as a problem that they say is a fact. A problem that puts you in danger for engine damage at anything much over stock HP.
Is it more prudent to correct the situation or wait till the situation has damaged if not blown your engine before you address it as an issue? Again to me, it's more about going with a clean optimally engineered set up rather than can you get away with ignoring a problem that has been identified and documented from the level of experts I've given.
Haven't heard of blown engines with HKS, but it's a relatively new kit. I heard of so many tuning problems with the HKS supercharger problems due to the fuel system and/or just A/F ratio, that I just gave up on the HKS last fall. Several threads on this website. I think it was speedracer that pulled the kit off his car. At first HKS was denying there even was a problem. Last I heard they admitted there was a problem because so many were complaining that they could no longer ignore it. Like PumpedVA on this board. Last I heard HKS finally admitted there was a problem. And they were going to address it.
Again, regardless, even if it doesn't result in complete blown engines immediately, experienced engine builders have identified this as a problem that they say is a fact. A problem that puts you in danger for engine damage at anything much over stock HP.
Is it more prudent to correct the situation or wait till the situation has damaged if not blown your engine before you address it as an issue? Again to me, it's more about going with a clean optimally engineered set up rather than can you get away with ignoring a problem that has been identified and documented from the level of experts I've given.
HKS isn't tunable, you can't unlock the HKS F-Con S to tune it. So the only mods it will respond to is a cat-back exhaust (well, respond positively, lol).
IMO, it's about going over 450-500rwhp without changing to return style and thinking you are going to be ok. Which, will lead me to believe that APS is a company that wants to include everything necessary for the user (besides internals, and drivetrain and etc.).
03-20-2005, 08:38 PM
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You know this may sound superficial, but I just watched MIAPLAYA's videos again and the turbo/BOV sound of the Turbonetics kit is awesome (much better than the TT kits)! Reminds me of my DSM days. 
03-20-2005, 10:41 PM
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I have a question. The APS website mentions "2004-2005 model 350z" Does this mean anyone with on '03, like myself, is out of luck?
I think I already know the answer to my question, so what i'm really asking is, why doesn' t the website say "2003-2005 model 350z" ?
On an aside, what I have gathered from the information given in this and other threads, it seems like APS has superior all around design and Turbonetics has the superior turbo. I wonder what the aps single turbo system would be like with a turbonetics snail? :^>
I think I already know the answer to my question, so what i'm really asking is, why doesn' t the website say "2003-2005 model 350z" ?
On an aside, what I have gathered from the information given in this and other threads, it seems like APS has superior all around design and Turbonetics has the superior turbo. I wonder what the aps single turbo system would be like with a turbonetics snail? :^>