APS Intercooled Single Turbo vs Turbonetics Single Turbo
03-18-2005, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by nis350ztt
Same reason GReddy doesn't include any fuel supply equipment...leaving it for someone else to do (leaving it for the consumer to buy for himself).
Exactly! You are exactly right. And if those forced induction kit makers would tell the buyers, up front, that their kits are incomplete and that they really need to upgrade with things like a fuel return system to be safe, then I would have no problem with that.
The problem is that all these kit makers, without a fuel return/recirculation system, are selling their kits as "complete" and saying their kits are all you need. They say to install the kit, maybe tune it, and don't worry about a thing. They are not complete IMO.
But many (not all) of the buyers of these kits don't know the kits are incomplete. And the kit manufacturers are telling them the complete opposite. Which is the problem. The kit buyers don't find out, if at all, that the kit is incomplete, "as is", until they have engine problems or a blown engine. And that might be down the road a bit time wise. So then those kit makers are saying that our VQ engines are weak and we have weak rods for forced induction.
Last edited by More Power; 03-18-2005 at 11:36 AM.
03-18-2005, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by More Power
And if those forced induction kit makers would tell the buyers, up front, that their kits are incomplete and that they really need to upgrade with things like a fuel return system to be safe, then I would have no problem with that.
The problem is that all these kit makers, without a fuel return/recirculation system, are selling their kits as "complete" and saying their kits are all you need. They say to install the kit, maybe tune it, and don't worry about a thing. They are not complete IMO.
But many (not all) of the buyers of these kits don't know the kits are incomplete. And the kit manufacturers are telling them the complete opposite. Which is the problem. The kit buyers don't find out, if at all, that the kit is incomplete, "as is", until they have engine problems or a blown engine. And that might be down the road a bit time wise. So then those kit makers are saying that our VQ engines are weak and we have weak rods for forced induction.
The problem is that all these kit makers, without a fuel return/recirculation system, are selling their kits as "complete" and saying their kits are all you need. They say to install the kit, maybe tune it, and don't worry about a thing. They are not complete IMO.
But many (not all) of the buyers of these kits don't know the kits are incomplete. And the kit manufacturers are telling them the complete opposite. Which is the problem. The kit buyers don't find out, if at all, that the kit is incomplete, "as is", until they have engine problems or a blown engine. And that might be down the road a bit time wise. So then those kit makers are saying that our VQ engines are weak and we have weak rods for forced induction.
03-18-2005, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by nis350ztt
They are complete, unless you are going over 450-500rwhp you don't need a return-style fuel system IMHO.
Here is a direct quote from Shariff, a.k.a. gq_626, who runs the Greddy TT kit in his 350Z, regarding the Greddy TT 350Z kit, " A dozen or so members have blown up their (350Z) motors with the Greddy kit, and many of those cars were professionally tuned as well. Just a word of caution for ya." And many of these cars were running the standard boost or real close to it in the kits. A dozen blown 350Z engines, that he knows of, with just this one kit, is...disturbing. The problem is that ALL the other kits except APS are also withholding the fuel recirculation system. Again for marketing rather than engineering reasons IMO.
In any case, as I said, if there is any doubt, why play Russian roulette with your engine when all the good stuff, like a fuel return system and baffled oil pan, is included in the APS kit from the get go? Some people like to mix and match and get a basic kit and upgrade with the specific fuel system, etc., that they want. And that’s cool. And can be safe if they know what they are doing as well.
Again, the problem lies with those kits without adequate fuel systems, including fuel recirculation systems, selling their kits as “complete” so that many buyers don’t know to upgrade, if they ever know at all. Until after it’s too late. JMO.
03-18-2005, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by More Power
You may be right, but waaay too many top engine builders are telling me that I am right. And that you need a fuel return/recirculation system for anything over 300 engine hp. Which means in virtually all cases for forced induction. Which is just what the Performance Nissan Grand Am crew chief said in the Sport Z Magazine article. He is involved with multi hundred thousand dollar 350Zs in a high horsepower environment. But he was speaking in the article about not only cars of his level, but specifically of enthusiasts running virtually anything over stock power on the street. He gave the figure at which you need the fuel return system as 300 engine hp. I gave that exact quote in an earlier post on this thread. And he is not the only ultra experienced engine builder saying this. And waaay too many of our VQ engines ARE blowing with kits like the Greddy on the standard low power boost like 5.6 or 5.8 psi, whatever it is. While they were just cruising down the road at 3500 RPMs.
Here is a direct quote from Shariff, a.k.a. gq_626, who runs the Greddy TT kit in his 350Z, regarding the Greddy TT 350Z kit, " A dozen or so members have blown up their (350Z) motors with the Greddy kit, and many of those cars were professionally tuned as well. Just a word of caution for ya." And many of these cars were running the standard boost or real close to it in the kits. A dozen blown 350Z engines, that he knows of, with just this one kit, is...disturbing. The problem is that ALL the other kits except APS are also withholding the fuel recirculation system. Again for marketing rather than engineering reasons IMO.
In any case, as I said, if there is any doubt, why play Russian roulette with your engine when all the good stuff, like a fuel return system and baffled oil pan, is included in the APS kit from the get go? Some people like to mix and match and get a basic kit and upgrade with the specific fuel system, etc., that they want. And that’s cool. And can be safe if they know what they are doing as well.
Again, the problem lies with those kits without adequate fuel systems, including fuel recirculation systems, selling their kits as “complete” so that many buyers don’t know to upgrade, if they ever know at all. Until after it’s too late. JMO.
Here is a direct quote from Shariff, a.k.a. gq_626, who runs the Greddy TT kit in his 350Z, regarding the Greddy TT 350Z kit, " A dozen or so members have blown up their (350Z) motors with the Greddy kit, and many of those cars were professionally tuned as well. Just a word of caution for ya." And many of these cars were running the standard boost or real close to it in the kits. A dozen blown 350Z engines, that he knows of, with just this one kit, is...disturbing. The problem is that ALL the other kits except APS are also withholding the fuel recirculation system. Again for marketing rather than engineering reasons IMO.
In any case, as I said, if there is any doubt, why play Russian roulette with your engine when all the good stuff, like a fuel return system and baffled oil pan, is included in the APS kit from the get go? Some people like to mix and match and get a basic kit and upgrade with the specific fuel system, etc., that they want. And that’s cool. And can be safe if they know what they are doing as well.
Again, the problem lies with those kits without adequate fuel systems, including fuel recirculation systems, selling their kits as “complete” so that many buyers don’t know to upgrade, if they ever know at all. Until after it’s too late. JMO.
I truly believe the reason they failed is due to lack of knowledge by the owners and/or tuners. You can't tune the APS on your own, it HAS TO BE UNLOCKED at the dealer to access tuning tools.
The oil starvation problem (well...potential) is not the oil pan, we've determined that already. Yep.
With that said, i'm probably going to make an alternate choice for my future, i've decided to wait until I can get enough cash to go with a TT, I just don't think i'll reach my goal with a single turbo kit. I'm hoping SFR will reply to my PM soon, if I never hear back it's going to either be GReddy or APS.
03-18-2005, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by nis350ztt
He meant 300rwhp. And he also said in the article for sustained amount of time, I believe he said 10+ seconds of WOT on the track.
The oil starvation problem (well...potential) is not the oil pan, we've determined that already. Yep.
The oil starvation problem (well...potential) is not the oil pan, we've determined that already. Yep.
He went on to say in that same paragraph that, “It is not necessarily a lean condition, but an inconsistent fuel delivery issue”. He later mentioned specifically that one of the things needed to fix this problem was the fuel return/recirculation system as I quoted in my prior post.
I do agree with what you said about producing that much power for a sustained amount of time is also very dangerous. And he did say that in the article as you said. But he said specifically 2 paragraphs down from my above quote (right most column on page 38), “I would say less than 10 seconds”. Not greater than 10+ seconds. In the context of 340 HP. And again he is speaking of flywheel (engine) HP as quoted above in the article. Less than 10 seconds is cutting it pretty thin when your engine is at stake IMO.
And regarding short duration races, in that same paragraph, he said, “I think if you built a car to, let’s say 350 HP, and do a drag race, you could get into trouble.” Again he is talking of flywheel HP in the article as quoted above.
It is not only the Sport Z article. I have heard from too many engine builders that a fuel return system, among other significant fuel upgrades, is needed for any 350Z forced induction kit. But we all have to decide on that. I'd just rather be on the safe side of that desision.
I did not mean to say that the upgraded, baffled oil pan was needed, specifically, to prevent blown engines. But I can see that I should have used better wording for that part of my post to make that clear. My bad. Quite frankly, I personally don’t know enough to say if the oil pan issues cause oil starvation, bearing seizure, and blown engines. I meant to say that the baffled upgraded oil pan is better for general improved oil cooling and such for safety and reliability. Again, I should have worded that better. And if the oil pan issues might cause other engine problems, I think it is better to have the upgraded oil pan than not to have it in any case.
I freely admit that if I err, I err on the side of optimum engineering and overkill safety for forced induction of our VQ engines. But that has served me well during years of turbo drag racing.
Everyone has to make their own decisions. And as I said, these other kits can be upgraded to safe levels for people that want to design their own systems and upgrade the stock kits with things like fuel return systems and other things. If they know what they are doing and I’m sure that you do. I’d just rather get a kit like APS that already has a strong fuel system, including a fuel return/recirculation system, and all the good stuff needed from the get go. But it is these people that did not know, if they ever do, that these other kits are incomplete until after it is too late, that have real problems.
I’m N V ous if you go with the option of the APS twin turbo that you mentioned. Agreed that is the better setup than the APS single T that I plan to get. For even quicker throttle response/turbo spool up and more ultimate power potential. If you have the extra $ for TT. The good news is that the APS single T has all the same level major systems, like the fuel system and EMS, for long term reliability and optimum performance. Sans one turbo and the related plumbing mostly. Good luck.
Last edited by More Power; 03-18-2005 at 03:30 PM.
03-18-2005, 02:25 PM
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With all of the above being covered very thoroughly (thanks to everybody who contributed), I think I will feel pretty good going with an APS single turbo tuned for 400rwhp, provided that it has a high flow cat (a must have in my mind) and the aps exhaust kit they mentioned on their website. Since I really only want 400whp out of the Z, I think a TT would be overkill/overspend.
Why stop at 400? Because anything more than that would far exceed my ability to safely drive it at this point. Maybe when I've improved my driving skills to where 400whp feels "tame" I'll push for more, but I think I'll want to move into an AWD car for anything higher than that.
Thanks everybody for this informative thread.
Why stop at 400? Because anything more than that would far exceed my ability to safely drive it at this point. Maybe when I've improved my driving skills to where 400whp feels "tame" I'll push for more, but I think I'll want to move into an AWD car for anything higher than that.
Thanks everybody for this informative thread.
03-18-2005, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by More Power
The Performance Nissan Grand Am crew chief in the Sport Z magazine article said 300 horse power at the engine was the point that a fuel return system, among other fuel system upgrades, is needed. Not 300 rwhp. This is a direct quote from page 38, right most column, 4th full paragraph from the top, “We know for a fact the biggest issue is the fuel system design from Nissan. It is inadequate to provide greater than about 300 HP at the flywheel”.
He went on to say in that same paragraph that, “It is not necessarily a lean condition, but an inconsistent fuel delivery issue”. He later mentioned specifically that one of the things needed to fix this problem was the fuel return/recirculation system as I quoted in my prior post.
I do agree with what you said about producing that much power for a sustained amount of time is also very dangerous. And he did say that in the article as you said. But he said specifically 2 paragraphs down from my above quote (right most column on page 38), “I would say less than 10 seconds”. Not greater than 10+ seconds. In the context of 340 HP. And again he is speaking of flywheel (engine) HP as quoted above in the article. Less than 10 seconds is cutting it pretty thin when your engine is at stake IMO.
And regarding short duration races, in that same paragraph, he said, “I think if you built a car to, let’s say 350 HP, and do a drag race, you could get into trouble.” Again he is talking of flywheel HP in the article as quoted above.
It is not only the Sport Z article. I have heard from too many engine builders that a fuel return system, among other significant fuel upgrades, is needed for any 350Z forced induction kit. But we all have to decide on that. I'd just rather be on the safe side of that desision.
I did not mean to say that the upgraded, baffled oil pan was needed, specifically, to prevent blown engines. But I can see that I should have used better wording for that part of my post to make that clear. My bad. Quite frankly, I personally don’t know enough to say if the oil pan issues cause oil starvation, bearing seizure, and blown engines. I meant to say that the baffled upgraded oil pan is better for general improved oil cooling and such for safety and reliability. Again, I should have worded that better. And if the oil pan issues might cause other engine problems, I think it is better to have the upgraded oil pan than not to have it in any case.
I freely admit that if I err, I err on the side of optimum engineering and overkill safety for forced induction of our VQ engines. But that has served me well during years of turbo drag racing.
Everyone has to make their own decisions. And as I said, these other kits can be upgraded to safe levels for people that want to design their own systems and upgrade the stock kits with things like fuel return systems and other things. If they know what they are doing and I’m sure that you do. I’d just rather get a kit like APS that already has a strong fuel system, including a fuel return/recirculation system, and all the good stuff needed from the get go. But it is these people that did not know, if they ever do, that these other kits are incomplete until after it is too late, that have real problems.
I’m N V ous if you go with the option of the APS twin turbo that you mentioned. Agreed that is the better setup than the APS single T that I plan to get. For even quicker throttle response/turbo spool up and more ultimate power potential. If you have the extra $ for TT. The good news is that the APS single T has all the same level major systems, like the fuel system and EMS, for long term reliability and optimum performance. Sans one turbo and the related plumbing mostly. Good luck.
He went on to say in that same paragraph that, “It is not necessarily a lean condition, but an inconsistent fuel delivery issue”. He later mentioned specifically that one of the things needed to fix this problem was the fuel return/recirculation system as I quoted in my prior post.
I do agree with what you said about producing that much power for a sustained amount of time is also very dangerous. And he did say that in the article as you said. But he said specifically 2 paragraphs down from my above quote (right most column on page 38), “I would say less than 10 seconds”. Not greater than 10+ seconds. In the context of 340 HP. And again he is speaking of flywheel (engine) HP as quoted above in the article. Less than 10 seconds is cutting it pretty thin when your engine is at stake IMO.
And regarding short duration races, in that same paragraph, he said, “I think if you built a car to, let’s say 350 HP, and do a drag race, you could get into trouble.” Again he is talking of flywheel HP in the article as quoted above.
It is not only the Sport Z article. I have heard from too many engine builders that a fuel return system, among other significant fuel upgrades, is needed for any 350Z forced induction kit. But we all have to decide on that. I'd just rather be on the safe side of that desision.
I did not mean to say that the upgraded, baffled oil pan was needed, specifically, to prevent blown engines. But I can see that I should have used better wording for that part of my post to make that clear. My bad. Quite frankly, I personally don’t know enough to say if the oil pan issues cause oil starvation, bearing seizure, and blown engines. I meant to say that the baffled upgraded oil pan is better for general improved oil cooling and such for safety and reliability. Again, I should have worded that better. And if the oil pan issues might cause other engine problems, I think it is better to have the upgraded oil pan than not to have it in any case.
I freely admit that if I err, I err on the side of optimum engineering and overkill safety for forced induction of our VQ engines. But that has served me well during years of turbo drag racing.
Everyone has to make their own decisions. And as I said, these other kits can be upgraded to safe levels for people that want to design their own systems and upgrade the stock kits with things like fuel return systems and other things. If they know what they are doing and I’m sure that you do. I’d just rather get a kit like APS that already has a strong fuel system, including a fuel return/recirculation system, and all the good stuff needed from the get go. But it is these people that did not know, if they ever do, that these other kits are incomplete until after it is too late, that have real problems.
I’m N V ous if you go with the option of the APS twin turbo that you mentioned. Agreed that is the better setup than the APS single T that I plan to get. For even quicker throttle response/turbo spool up and more ultimate power potential. If you have the extra $ for TT. The good news is that the APS single T has all the same level major systems, like the fuel system and EMS, for long term reliability and optimum performance. Sans one turbo and the related plumbing mostly. Good luck.
I'll say again, I think he was just covering his *** just in case someone took it as 100% fact.
Well, IMHO, if you aren't boosting over 450-500rwhp then you don't need a fuel return system.
Ok. BTW, your posts are very respectful and you admit when you are wrong or didn't clarify something as clearly as you would have liked to, I respect that.
Thanks. The Turbonetics and APS I imagine won't boost 650rwhp....and I don't think I can rely on boosting to the limits of the turbo and running race gas to reach 750. I'd rather run 750rwhp on race gas and know I can push the turbochargers for 50+rwhp more.
03-18-2005, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by xxlbeerZ
I forgot about the AC line thing too, there sure is a lot of negatives for the Turbonetics.
03-18-2005, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by nis350ztt
I know he said 300HP, but the damn '05 Track and 35th A.E. models have 300hp and they sure as heck haven't upgraded fuel. I think the guy meant 300rwhp and was being very conservative.
I'll say again, I think he was just covering his *** just in case someone took it as 100% fact.
I'll say again, I think he was just covering his *** just in case someone took it as 100% fact.
And even if he did mean the point at which he recommended the fuel return system was 300 wheel HP, virtually all the forced induction kits do result in 300 wheel hp or more at standard kit boost levels. But I am also influenced by other good engine builders who say about the same thing regarding really beefing up the fuel system, including a fuel return system, with any forced induction kit. And of course the EMS.
In any case, many of us have given their opinions. So kit buyers have a lot of information and feedback with which to make buying decisions. And I agree that you, too, and everyone else has been real respectful of differing opinions. Thanks and I also appreciate that. And this has been a very very interesting and informative thread. Good luck and take care.
Last edited by More Power; 03-18-2005 at 07:28 PM.
03-18-2005, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by nis350ztt
I have never heard that...
From the manual:
PREREQUISITE STEPS: Before getting your hands dirty while under the hood, there are 2 prerequisite steps.
See the following 2 sections for detailed instructions regarding A/C Tube Replacement and ECU Removal & Shipping.
A/C TUBE REPLACEMENT: The first prerequisite step is to have a replacement air conditioning tube assembly (included in the kit) installed by a professional A/C technician. This is necessary because the turbocharger is
located very close to this A/C tube in its factory location, so a replacement “shielded” tube assembly is supplied to move it away from the hot turbocharger. HAZARDOUS: Do not attempt to perform this step without proper training or equipment. Take your car to a local auto repair shop that is capable of discharging and recharging the A/C system on your car, and have them perform the following 8 steps. Don’t forget to bring the replacement part,
P/N 21213 (FIGURE 1).
1. Turn the ignition switch to the OFF position & disconnect the battery.
2. Using factory recommended procedures, evacuate (discharge) the A/C system.
3. Remove factory air filter box assembly (FIGURE 2), to provide easy access to the A/C tube being replaced.
FIGURE 1 FIGURE 2
4. Remove factory A/C tube, as shown in FIGURES 3 and 4. Tube routes from the A/C compressor (front, driver’s side of engine) on one end, towards the front-mount heat exchanger on the other end.
FIGURE 3 FIGURE 4
60130_prelim Page 8 of 27
5. Install replacement A/C tube assembly (P/N 21213) in same location. See FIGURE 5.FIGURE 5
6. Using factory recommended procedures, re-fill (charge) the A/C system. Check for leaks.
7. Re-install the factory air filter box assembly, and reconnect the battery.
8. Start the car, turn on the A/C system & re-check for leaks.
Screwing with the A/C is never fun...
Last edited by xxlbeerZ; 03-18-2005 at 08:53 PM.
03-18-2005, 09:15 PM
#175
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Originally Posted by xxlbeerZ
From the manual:
PREREQUISITE STEPS: Before getting your hands dirty while under the hood, there are 2 prerequisite steps.
See the following 2 sections for detailed instructions regarding A/C Tube Replacement and ECU Removal & Shipping.
A/C TUBE REPLACEMENT: The first prerequisite step is to have a replacement air conditioning tube assembly (included in the kit) installed by a professional A/C technician. This is necessary because the turbocharger is
located very close to this A/C tube in its factory location, so a replacement “shielded” tube assembly is supplied to move it away from the hot turbocharger. HAZARDOUS: Do not attempt to perform this step without proper training or equipment. Take your car to a local auto repair shop that is capable of discharging and recharging the A/C system on your car, and have them perform the following 8 steps. Don’t forget to bring the replacement part,
P/N 21213 (FIGURE 1).
1. Turn the ignition switch to the OFF position & disconnect the battery.
2. Using factory recommended procedures, evacuate (discharge) the A/C system.
3. Remove factory air filter box assembly (FIGURE 2), to provide easy access to the A/C tube being replaced.
FIGURE 1 FIGURE 2
4. Remove factory A/C tube, as shown in FIGURES 3 and 4. Tube routes from the A/C compressor (front, driver’s side of engine) on one end, towards the front-mount heat exchanger on the other end.
FIGURE 3 FIGURE 4
60130_prelim Page 8 of 27
5. Install replacement A/C tube assembly (P/N 21213) in same location. See FIGURE 5.FIGURE 5
6. Using factory recommended procedures, re-fill (charge) the A/C system. Check for leaks.
7. Re-install the factory air filter box assembly, and reconnect the battery.
8. Start the car, turn on the A/C system & re-check for leaks.
Screwing with the A/C is never fun...
PREREQUISITE STEPS: Before getting your hands dirty while under the hood, there are 2 prerequisite steps.
See the following 2 sections for detailed instructions regarding A/C Tube Replacement and ECU Removal & Shipping.
A/C TUBE REPLACEMENT: The first prerequisite step is to have a replacement air conditioning tube assembly (included in the kit) installed by a professional A/C technician. This is necessary because the turbocharger is
located very close to this A/C tube in its factory location, so a replacement “shielded” tube assembly is supplied to move it away from the hot turbocharger. HAZARDOUS: Do not attempt to perform this step without proper training or equipment. Take your car to a local auto repair shop that is capable of discharging and recharging the A/C system on your car, and have them perform the following 8 steps. Don’t forget to bring the replacement part,
P/N 21213 (FIGURE 1).
1. Turn the ignition switch to the OFF position & disconnect the battery.
2. Using factory recommended procedures, evacuate (discharge) the A/C system.
3. Remove factory air filter box assembly (FIGURE 2), to provide easy access to the A/C tube being replaced.
FIGURE 1 FIGURE 2
4. Remove factory A/C tube, as shown in FIGURES 3 and 4. Tube routes from the A/C compressor (front, driver’s side of engine) on one end, towards the front-mount heat exchanger on the other end.
FIGURE 3 FIGURE 4
60130_prelim Page 8 of 27
5. Install replacement A/C tube assembly (P/N 21213) in same location. See FIGURE 5.FIGURE 5
6. Using factory recommended procedures, re-fill (charge) the A/C system. Check for leaks.
7. Re-install the factory air filter box assembly, and reconnect the battery.
8. Start the car, turn on the A/C system & re-check for leaks.
Screwing with the A/C is never fun...
03-19-2005, 12:28 PM
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I agree the a full return system is a must for over 450-500 RWHP and I completely respect what the crew chief said but the fact of the matter is not EVERYBODY without a complete fuel return has blown their engine. That in and of itself proves that it is not a MANDATORY thing. OK so 10+ people blew their motor with the Greddy, how many Vortechs have, SFR?, Stillen?, HKS?,etc? Thats my point. Only one company out of several include a fuel reutrn kit and you don't see 10+ blown kits with others besides Greddy. Furthermore saying that its going to happen over 300 Crank HP I think is very extreme. How many people currently have WELL over 300 engine HP withjust N/A mods. I have yet to see even one blown from N/A mods... Over 450-500 sure I would think a full return system is necessary. But any less then that to the wheels I think is fine. Everyone is subject to their opinions and I respect that.
As for the AC line yes it is replaced and recharged. All of this will cost AT THE MOST $100 at a dealer or other shop. And this is done to be safe and ensure everything remains fine during ownership of the kit. I don't see it as a drawback but rather a plus that Turbonetics includes a solution to fix any potential down the line problems. I mean Greddy kits are known to melt the Power Steering line during the long term but I don't see Greddy stepping up to fix this. Turbonetics just shows they planned for everything longterm with their kit by including a replacement line. And replacing a AC line IMO is way cheaper then having to pull the motor to install a turbo kit as is regularly done with TT kits. Even with the added cost of replacing that one line you are still WAY cheaper then any TT install by at LEAST $1000
As for the AC line yes it is replaced and recharged. All of this will cost AT THE MOST $100 at a dealer or other shop. And this is done to be safe and ensure everything remains fine during ownership of the kit. I don't see it as a drawback but rather a plus that Turbonetics includes a solution to fix any potential down the line problems. I mean Greddy kits are known to melt the Power Steering line during the long term but I don't see Greddy stepping up to fix this. Turbonetics just shows they planned for everything longterm with their kit by including a replacement line. And replacing a AC line IMO is way cheaper then having to pull the motor to install a turbo kit as is regularly done with TT kits. Even with the added cost of replacing that one line you are still WAY cheaper then any TT install by at LEAST $1000
03-19-2005, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by xxlbeerZ
I forgot about the AC line thing too, there sure is a lot of negatives for the Turbonetics.
If possible/practical it's always best to keep the additional heat load generated by the turbocharger well away from the A/C compressor, (even if the tubo housing and A/C compressor is sheilded).
I know there's always upside and down side for different turbocharger positions though I believe that removing this high temperature (generated by the tubocharger which is positioned at the front of the engine bay) from the engine compartment is very advantageous is many ways, certainly much cooler under hood air temperature is rewarded by more consistent power and torque.
Peter
03-19-2005, 07:27 PM
#179
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Peter,
I agree with the turbo location. This is one of things I'm worried about with the Turbonetics kit. Even with the turbine heat shield and coated pipe, it will still be hot. At least they located the air filter away from all the engine heat in the bumper. I have a turbo blanket on my turbo also, and it does a great job.
Is the APS kit's turbo high enough to half the oil self drain, or will there be a sump and pump?
I agree with the turbo location. This is one of things I'm worried about with the Turbonetics kit. Even with the turbine heat shield and coated pipe, it will still be hot. At least they located the air filter away from all the engine heat in the bumper. I have a turbo blanket on my turbo also, and it does a great job.
Is the APS kit's turbo high enough to half the oil self drain, or will there be a sump and pump?
03-19-2005, 10:09 PM
#180
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Originally Posted by Vic N
Peter,
I agree with the turbo location. This is one of things I'm worried about with the Turbonetics kit.
I agree with the turbo location. This is one of things I'm worried about with the Turbonetics kit.
Originally Posted by Vic N
Even with the turbine heat shield and coated pipe, it will still be hot.
A turbo housing is like any other mechanical component, it has a limitation in terms of what temperature range it operates in comfortably over an extended period of time (not a few thousand miles).
A turbo housing needs to have a decent air space between itself and the heat shield.
I know that Garrett engineers are very concerned with the use of turbo blankets on gasoline engines.
Originally Posted by Vic N
Is the APS kit's turbo high enough to half the oil self drain, or will there be a sump and pump?
A high quality scavenge pump (and all necessary plumbing) from the aero space industry rated for 25,000 hours of continous duty is supplied in the APS intercooled single turbo system along with the APS oil pan.
Thanks
Peter