Possible production of a block guard as a alternative to Sleeves?
10-25-2005, 04:34 PM
#21
Robert,
Take it slowly with this one.
I don't know anything about block guards but when I look at the picture posted above I cant see how it can provide any significant structural support to the cylinder walls in terms of hoop stress. I would like to see a picture of one installed on a block to really know.
If the block guard evenly transmits its load to another part of the block, then it may be effective. But if it just pops onto the cylinder walls and has nothing else to back it up, it won't do anything to increase cylinder pressure capability. Zip.
It looks like just a piece of metal hanging in the coolant flow channel.
If the outer perimeter of the device is backup by another part of the block such that it is inwardly compressed against the cylinder walls it just might work.
Take it slowly with this one.
I don't know anything about block guards but when I look at the picture posted above I cant see how it can provide any significant structural support to the cylinder walls in terms of hoop stress. I would like to see a picture of one installed on a block to really know.
If the block guard evenly transmits its load to another part of the block, then it may be effective. But if it just pops onto the cylinder walls and has nothing else to back it up, it won't do anything to increase cylinder pressure capability. Zip.
It looks like just a piece of metal hanging in the coolant flow channel.
If the outer perimeter of the device is backup by another part of the block such that it is inwardly compressed against the cylinder walls it just might work.
10-25-2005, 04:40 PM
#22
I was just thinking about other alternates. I remember reading about a drag S15 SR20DET who poured molten metal behind the stock sleeves to stop all the issues normally associated with running high power on the open deck block.
I would imagine the sleeves might need to be bored out as the heat from the molten metal could distort the sleeves?
Wonder if this is a reliable option?
I would imagine the sleeves might need to be bored out as the heat from the molten metal could distort the sleeves?
Wonder if this is a reliable option?
Last edited by mchapman; 10-25-2005 at 04:43 PM.
10-25-2005, 04:45 PM
#23
there would be no coolant flowing thru the engine if you did that.
isnt anyone going to wait until someone actually breaks the stock sleeves before getting too hog wild here? We are all so affraid of something that hasnt even proven to be a problem with our engines!
isnt anyone going to wait until someone actually breaks the stock sleeves before getting too hog wild here? We are all so affraid of something that hasnt even proven to be a problem with our engines!
10-25-2005, 04:54 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by phunk
there would be no coolant flowing thru the engine if you did that.
isnt anyone going to wait until someone actually breaks the stock sleeves before getting too hog wild here? We are all so affraid of something that hasnt even proven to be a problem with our engines!
isnt anyone going to wait until someone actually breaks the stock sleeves before getting too hog wild here? We are all so affraid of something that hasnt even proven to be a problem with our engines!
10-25-2005, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydrazine
Robert,
Take it slowly with this one.
I don't know anything about block guards but when I look at the picture posted above I cant see how it can provide any significant structural support to the cylinder walls in terms of hoop stress. I would like to see a picture of one installed on a block to really know.
If the block guard evenly transmits its load to another part of the block, then it may be effective. But if it just pops onto the cylinder walls and has nothing else to back it up, it won't do anything to increase cylinder pressure capability. Zip.
It looks like just a piece of metal hanging in the coolant flow channel.
If the outer perimeter of the device is backup by another part of the block such that it is inwardly compressed against the cylinder walls it just might work.
Take it slowly with this one.
I don't know anything about block guards but when I look at the picture posted above I cant see how it can provide any significant structural support to the cylinder walls in terms of hoop stress. I would like to see a picture of one installed on a block to really know.
If the block guard evenly transmits its load to another part of the block, then it may be effective. But if it just pops onto the cylinder walls and has nothing else to back it up, it won't do anything to increase cylinder pressure capability. Zip.
It looks like just a piece of metal hanging in the coolant flow channel.
If the outer perimeter of the device is backup by another part of the block such that it is inwardly compressed against the cylinder walls it just might work.
Tony,
Here is one pic I found of it installed on a Honda motor:
10-25-2005, 05:02 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by phunk
the only problem is the risk associated. In a honda it takes a fraction of the time to pull out the engine and change something. If we had a problem in the Z, let the nightmare begin!
10-25-2005, 05:29 PM
#29
Originally Posted by phunk
there would be no coolant flowing thru the engine if you did that.
Last edited by mchapman; 10-25-2005 at 05:32 PM.
10-25-2005, 05:57 PM
#30
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This is the only method that has worked in my few experiences(only 2). After the guard is installed then you would need to machine the cylinders using a torque plate. This is the most effective way to eliminate the deflection caused by the initial installation of the block guard. It could work but seeing as how we are having cooling issues and not cylinder distortion issues it could cause more problems than it would solve. A block guard is an effective cure for an engine with a higher stroke to bore ratio.
Originally Posted by g356gear
To do it right, each guard has to be individually shaped and sanded so it basically drops into the jacket without any effort, then welded in place.
Last edited by theking; 10-25-2005 at 06:01 PM.
10-25-2005, 07:21 PM
#31
It looks like it has potential.
It will take a very precise, symetrical and somewhat tight to get the benefits. But I wouldn't recommend putting a welder anywhere near it. (Way too much heat destortion.)
If you try this route, it will definetly put you down in the VQ pioneer book.
It will take a very precise, symetrical and somewhat tight to get the benefits. But I wouldn't recommend putting a welder anywhere near it. (Way too much heat destortion.)
If you try this route, it will definetly put you down in the VQ pioneer book.
10-25-2005, 10:02 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by Hydrazine
Robert,
Take it slowly with this one.
I don't know anything about block guards but when I look at the picture posted above I cant see how it can provide any significant structural support to the cylinder walls in terms of hoop stress. I would like to see a picture of one installed on a block to really know.
If the block guard evenly transmits its load to another part of the block, then it may be effective. But if it just pops onto the cylinder walls and has nothing else to back it up, it won't do anything to increase cylinder pressure capability. Zip.
It looks like just a piece of metal hanging in the coolant flow channel.
If the outer perimeter of the device is backup by another part of the block such that it is inwardly compressed against the cylinder walls it just might work.
Take it slowly with this one.
I don't know anything about block guards but when I look at the picture posted above I cant see how it can provide any significant structural support to the cylinder walls in terms of hoop stress. I would like to see a picture of one installed on a block to really know.
If the block guard evenly transmits its load to another part of the block, then it may be effective. But if it just pops onto the cylinder walls and has nothing else to back it up, it won't do anything to increase cylinder pressure capability. Zip.
It looks like just a piece of metal hanging in the coolant flow channel.
If the outer perimeter of the device is backup by another part of the block such that it is inwardly compressed against the cylinder walls it just might work.
hey tony,
it is certainly doing nothing to increase hoop stess, and definitely not increasing the capacity to hold cylinder pressure. the only thing it is doing is making the top of the stock floating sleeves more rigid. i guess during the engine's rotation, there is a possiblility of cylinder deflection, and the brace is giving a fixed support on the top of the sleeve, to compliment the lower one.
i agree that the brace should be cut about .050" oversized, and the corresponding pattern should be cut into the block. this would then be pressed in, and would have a positive stop, at a depth to be selected. this would hold it in place. also, the brace needs to have plenty of holes or slots to allow for appropriate coolant flow.
Chad
10-26-2005, 01:32 AM
#33
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Originally Posted by phunk
isnt anyone going to wait until someone actually breaks the stock sleeves before getting too hog wild here? We are all so affraid of something that hasnt even proven to be a problem with our engines!
I believe there is another alternative that I heard if done correctly is trouble free. It involves machining a small diameter (really just a radius profile) on the outside of the cylinder & block and pins are inserted then welded in place.
EDIT: One more bit of info to add. The stroke to rod ratio of this motor is high enough to where piston side loading is really not a problem. I doubt you'll ever see much cylinder walking on a VQ unless someone decided to destroke the motor..
Last edited by atlsupdawg#2; 10-26-2005 at 01:45 AM.
10-26-2005, 06:21 AM
#34
I had posted some comments in anothe thread about the potential for headgaket failure/cylinder wall failure beyond 600whp. Without breaking down the motor, its too early to say if this really IS a problem. I can just comment on my experiences only.
I will say that Performance Motorsports claims that the stock sleeves on their engine began to fail after 600whp...and they recommend sleeving.
In regards to side wall loading, I agree there is no issue of the piston actually walking or rocking the cylinder. But I would be concerned with sheer cylinder pressure at very high boost and power levels. Maybe this is something as simple as a head gasket problem, or studs. I have some Darton Sleeves on order..and a couple spare blocks...just in case.
I will say that Performance Motorsports claims that the stock sleeves on their engine began to fail after 600whp...and they recommend sleeving.
In regards to side wall loading, I agree there is no issue of the piston actually walking or rocking the cylinder. But I would be concerned with sheer cylinder pressure at very high boost and power levels. Maybe this is something as simple as a head gasket problem, or studs. I have some Darton Sleeves on order..and a couple spare blocks...just in case.
10-26-2005, 07:19 AM
#35
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take it from someone who owned it and try one before. First off they need to install it correctly it should be pressed in not just filed and hammerd in. i had a inline pro block gaurd wich is a quality piece but still had problems with overheating it also can mess up your cylinder wall and miss shape them and will run into more problems down the road. think of i this way after spending all that money on your car why cheap out now. you have prolly dumped a good 6-7 grand maybe more i dont no your situation but after it is built and sleeved you can run the psi you want with confidence. things still can go wrong though. like sleeve droping and **** like that but when its all said and done its up to you i would just chill with what you got and hold on tight for the gtr to come out, but i no that is easly said then done.
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