1/2" head studs test
05-05-2006 | 06:41 AM
#122
Originally Posted by mraturbo
No, a little leak while we were doing a time trial for Sports Compact Magazine on Eagle1's G, yet that was the first time the car had ever been even on a road. Her maiden run was on Streets of Willow Raceway.
Now, I honestly think it is our conservative tuning that has helped us. Not that we are perfect.
Now, I honestly think it is our conservative tuning that has helped us. Not that we are perfect.
Can you also please post your latest dyno chart and explain to us how your making 400whp at 2K rmps? It just blaffes us - you must be a great tuner...
05-05-2006 | 07:40 AM
#123
Originally Posted by mraturbo
considering we both have Companies that do Motor Building, kind of like giving the competition all your trade secrets?
M
M
I was asking in reference to how many ft-lbs of torque you guys use on your headstuds...
giving me the secrets..you are too funny
we have seen headlift at the 600hp mark...this is with running pretty conservative timing throughout the entire powerband (approx 12-14 degree advance..then tapering up to approx 19-20degress at redline)---
happy to share our "secrets"
-TODD
05-05-2006 | 08:03 AM
#124
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,337
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From: ATL-What U Know About That???
Not trying to stir the pot on the debate of heli's and times but I have experince dealing with helicoils used in turbine engines. They are used a lot on accessory gear boxes, high pressure hydraulic and oiling systems, etc. Helicoils are very solid performers yet become quite a PITA to align and replace if your ever need to. Never dealt with time-serts before but from what I've read they are just as soild, if not a bit more, than a helicoil.
The point I would like to make is that this debate seems more along the lines of the debate on which rods are better and stronger. To me helicoil = eagle rods and time-serts = pauter. They both are great performers and I'm sure if you're running big power something else will fail long before either of the 2 will.
Good luck and thanks for another option...
The point I would like to make is that this debate seems more along the lines of the debate on which rods are better and stronger. To me helicoil = eagle rods and time-serts = pauter. They both are great performers and I'm sure if you're running big power something else will fail long before either of the 2 will.
Good luck and thanks for another option...
05-05-2006 | 08:03 AM
#125
Originally Posted by 350zDCalb
I was asking in reference to how many ft-lbs of torque you guys use on your headstuds...
giving me the secrets..you are too funny
we have seen headlift at the 600hp mark...this is with running pretty conservative timing throughout the entire powerband (approx 12-14 degree advance..then tapering up to approx 19-20degress at redline)---
happy to share our "secrets"
-TODD
giving me the secrets..you are too funny
we have seen headlift at the 600hp mark...this is with running pretty conservative timing throughout the entire powerband (approx 12-14 degree advance..then tapering up to approx 19-20degress at redline)---
happy to share our "secrets"
-TODD
What application? Is that track driving or drag racing or? I am sure if you beat up on it on the street enough, you can drive at 600 WHP and put enough stress. I just don't drive around that fast on the street unless on open highway. Our problems have always occurred on the tracks.
M
Last edited by mraturbo; 05-05-2006 at 08:32 AM.
05-05-2006 | 11:19 AM
#126
Im getting head lift on my supercharger , with 420whp [ mustang dyno ] and 13psi . I retard timing gradually till 18 degree's and 19 above 6500rpm .
It sure would be nice if some one could share there secret on how to keep the heads down .
It sure would be nice if some one could share there secret on how to keep the heads down .
05-05-2006 | 11:32 AM
#127
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From: tigard oregon
Originally Posted by Gary Evans
We have also gone through this same problem on turbocharged Suzuki Hayabusa engines, which employ four 10mm bolts around each cylinder. HP up to 700 at the rear wheel has to date been accomplished from the 1300cc engine on a dyno but gasket problems are experienced well below that level.
One of the first attempts to solve it was a larger stud, which in this case only requires tapping out the block without any type of insert. That helps to a degree but court is still out on where you reach the point of diminishing returns in increasing stud diameter. The MLS gasket we use is coated with viton, which is its Achilles heel. Any lifting of the head blows the coating right off and as you would expect it occurs between the studs. After the coating is damaged it may only leak under boost but it will only get worse. As you increase the clamping force at the stud I expect at some point the clamping force between studs would actually decrease as the head begins to warp. At this point its all theory but a better gasket coating would sure help. The best solution would be adding more fasteners around the cylinder so the clamping force would be more equalized but the head design does not permit it. We also have gone to surface grinding the surfaces for reasons explained here -
http://tinyurl.com/bzn6q
It is also pretty well understood in the motorcycle ranks that if it detonates nothing is going to save it.
One of the first attempts to solve it was a larger stud, which in this case only requires tapping out the block without any type of insert. That helps to a degree but court is still out on where you reach the point of diminishing returns in increasing stud diameter. The MLS gasket we use is coated with viton, which is its Achilles heel. Any lifting of the head blows the coating right off and as you would expect it occurs between the studs. After the coating is damaged it may only leak under boost but it will only get worse. As you increase the clamping force at the stud I expect at some point the clamping force between studs would actually decrease as the head begins to warp. At this point its all theory but a better gasket coating would sure help. The best solution would be adding more fasteners around the cylinder so the clamping force would be more equalized but the head design does not permit it. We also have gone to surface grinding the surfaces for reasons explained here -
http://tinyurl.com/bzn6q
It is also pretty well understood in the motorcycle ranks that if it detonates nothing is going to save it.
gary, you have hit the nail on the head with everything you have said here. i also feel there is no amount of clamping force that is going to ultimately cure this problem. the stock sealing material around the bores and coolant and oil passages were getting diminished around the center of my bores. once this material goes, you just lost thickness and clamping force in this area and it will only get worse, at a pretty fast rate.
the larger head studs is just the first portion of the fixes it will take to help cure this problem. i am looking towards head strengthening fixes, as i feel it is the head is flexing between the bolts at this point.
the first of these fixes will be released in the next day or 2. shipping got held up as i was hoping to get these parts yesterday, but will not recieve them till this afternoon. a thermal expansion test will happen tomorrow, then details will be ready to post.
05-05-2006 | 11:36 AM
#128
Originally Posted by booger
Im getting head lift on my supercharger , with 420whp [ mustang dyno ] and 13psi . I retard timing gradually till 18 degree's and 19 above 6500rpm .
It sure would be nice if some one could share there secret on how to keep the heads down .
It sure would be nice if some one could share there secret on how to keep the heads down .
We also tune with C116 on the dyno for testing....and you will still see head lift, even with conservative timing...its just a matter of when.
Evo's, Supras, and STi's all went through the same learning pattern....and the solution is the same with the VQ. If one person can make 750whp on an open deck and standard studs, I wont dispute that. I just dont think its the correct approach to take, unless you are just trying to put numbers on the board, or for testing purposes. I was able to get 622whp out of a single Walbro pump rated at 500whp. Would I suggest that on a customer's car...absolutely not. I am running 700whp+ on Level2 DSS axles, but would I recommend that to a customer...absolutely not.
There are several different ways to skin a cat....but there is only one absolutely correct and proper way.
05-05-2006 | 11:36 AM
#129
Translation=I don't know because I'm not that involved in the motor build. 
Originally Posted by mraturbo
considering we both have Companies that do Motor Building, kind of like giving the competition all your trade secrets?
M
M
05-05-2006 | 11:49 AM
#130
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
From: Mesa, Az
Head lift
What we refer to as head lifting for the lack of a better term may simply be the fact that the sealing area between fasteners is under less clamping force due to microscopic distortion in the cylinder head as it is torqued down. If this is what happening than the area between fasteners is just the weakest point and adding clamping force only at the fasteners can only improve the situation to a degree. Applying too much clamping force could worsen the problem since it would follow that more distortion between fasteners would occur.
A better sealing material on the MLS gasket wouldn't hurt.
A better sealing material on the MLS gasket wouldn't hurt.
05-05-2006 | 12:14 PM
#131
Originally Posted by mraturbo
SOUNDS LIKE BOTH OF YOU ARE CORRECT...But is either technique necessary for power levels that are useable?
Maybe you can take two equally built blocks in similar cars, same fuel, etc BUT different techniques and let them run. That is the only way we know things work. Build'em and try to break'em with a lot of data acquisition along the way. And then take what we learned and GO BACK TO THE DYNO for more punishment.
As mentioned before, we are making 800 WHP without sleeving, Helicoils or Solid Inserts. We keep dynoing and I keep racing the car trying to see if she will give. And I would bet I road race my G35C as much as anyone on these boards. If you don't believe me, go to CalSpeedway on May 23, 2006. I just returned from Willow Springs yesterday and Spring Mountain last weekend.
Still no blown head gaskets, oil, or massive overheating. But I am a fanatic to use High Octane when I know the motor will be stressed like on a road racecourse at 80 degrees in the deserts and 110 degree on the track.
FYI, my motor make 525 WHP at 11 PSI on 91 pump so I don't have to use high octane to be safe, I just do it to keep her cooler and FREE breathing...
NOTE: At I did overheat after running her last weekend at Spring Mountain while passing Ferraris and a GT40, and the heat was there yet not crazy dangerous. The only change I have had to do is increase the percentage of coolant to water in addition to AGAIN running race fuel when on the tracks or when I know I will be stressing the motor. After increasing the coolant percentage, She ran well again the same day and fantastic yesterday with NO Over-Heating.
Eventually it will happen, KABOOM, while we are still on a crazy quest to make and continually maintain 1000 Crank HP with a VQ.
BUT AS FOR USEABLE POWER LEVELS - I am damn sure these blocks, after a reliable build - Pauter Rods, Arias or Cp Pistons, Cams, etc..., can take as much power as the tires can lay down to the ground which is a clean 500 WHP/550 Torque. So any more power than this, you really can't use anyway, JUST FOR BRAGGING RIGHTS. Unless it is a drag specific car and that motor will only last so long. Look, we build cars that can’t make 1000 WHP like a Supra or Skyline, but please remember, that power is only at very high RPMs. I personally like, a car that has tremendous useable power between 3000-5500 RPMs. Not only above 6000k.
Just our observation. And if you aren't sure how much power that is in relation to other Super Cars, watch our videos. New one being edited NOW!
In my suggestions, test your techniques yourselves on the racetrack where the car is asked to do the craziest things (4-7000 RPM up and down) for 20-30 straight. Want to see heat generation; driving on the track will make the heat
Maybe you can take two equally built blocks in similar cars, same fuel, etc BUT different techniques and let them run. That is the only way we know things work. Build'em and try to break'em with a lot of data acquisition along the way. And then take what we learned and GO BACK TO THE DYNO for more punishment.
As mentioned before, we are making 800 WHP without sleeving, Helicoils or Solid Inserts. We keep dynoing and I keep racing the car trying to see if she will give. And I would bet I road race my G35C as much as anyone on these boards. If you don't believe me, go to CalSpeedway on May 23, 2006. I just returned from Willow Springs yesterday and Spring Mountain last weekend.
Still no blown head gaskets, oil, or massive overheating. But I am a fanatic to use High Octane when I know the motor will be stressed like on a road racecourse at 80 degrees in the deserts and 110 degree on the track.
FYI, my motor make 525 WHP at 11 PSI on 91 pump so I don't have to use high octane to be safe, I just do it to keep her cooler and FREE breathing...
NOTE: At I did overheat after running her last weekend at Spring Mountain while passing Ferraris and a GT40, and the heat was there yet not crazy dangerous. The only change I have had to do is increase the percentage of coolant to water in addition to AGAIN running race fuel when on the tracks or when I know I will be stressing the motor. After increasing the coolant percentage, She ran well again the same day and fantastic yesterday with NO Over-Heating.
Eventually it will happen, KABOOM, while we are still on a crazy quest to make and continually maintain 1000 Crank HP with a VQ.
BUT AS FOR USEABLE POWER LEVELS - I am damn sure these blocks, after a reliable build - Pauter Rods, Arias or Cp Pistons, Cams, etc..., can take as much power as the tires can lay down to the ground which is a clean 500 WHP/550 Torque. So any more power than this, you really can't use anyway, JUST FOR BRAGGING RIGHTS. Unless it is a drag specific car and that motor will only last so long. Look, we build cars that can’t make 1000 WHP like a Supra or Skyline, but please remember, that power is only at very high RPMs. I personally like, a car that has tremendous useable power between 3000-5500 RPMs. Not only above 6000k.
Just our observation. And if you aren't sure how much power that is in relation to other Super Cars, watch our videos. New one being edited NOW!
In my suggestions, test your techniques yourselves on the racetrack where the car is asked to do the craziest things (4-7000 RPM up and down) for 20-30 straight. Want to see heat generation; driving on the track will make the heat
MRATURBO, I've been following the posts from you guys and have been pretty impressed with what you're doing. I agree with you, that car has got to be making crazy heat on the track under the conditions. Maybe I have missed it in other posts, but are you guys using any kind of upgraded water pump or electric pump to keep the block cool? There has been discussions on the heat generated in our built engines. I sleeved mine, but thought (in addition to other cooling mods) that I would use an electric water pump with thermostatic controller to assist that much more in keeping the block cool (the electric pump works in conjunction with the stock pump). My personal theory is that this may assist with the head lift issue as well.
05-05-2006 | 12:38 PM
#132
Originally Posted by Yancy
Very Good post here. I personally think that everyone that has the power of knowledge or access to the knowledge is trying to do all they can to make all FI Z's and G's more reliable and more powerful while maintaining that reliability. I thank everyone working on this issue because that's the only way things get done.
MRATURBO, I've been following the posts from you guys and have been pretty impressed with what you're doing. I agree with you, that car has got to be making crazy heat on the track under the conditions. Maybe I have missed it in other posts, but are you guys using any kind of upgraded water pump or electric pump to keep the block cool? There has been discussions on the heat generated in our built engines. I sleeved mine, but thought (in addition to other cooling mods) that I would use an electric water pump with thermostatic controller to assist that much more in keeping the block cool (the electric pump works in conjunction with the stock pump). My personal theory is that this may assist with the head lift issue as well.
MRATURBO, I've been following the posts from you guys and have been pretty impressed with what you're doing. I agree with you, that car has got to be making crazy heat on the track under the conditions. Maybe I have missed it in other posts, but are you guys using any kind of upgraded water pump or electric pump to keep the block cool? There has been discussions on the heat generated in our built engines. I sleeved mine, but thought (in addition to other cooling mods) that I would use an electric water pump with thermostatic controller to assist that much more in keeping the block cool (the electric pump works in conjunction with the stock pump). My personal theory is that this may assist with the head lift issue as well.
Yes you are correct Sharif, "there are many ways to skin a cat," yet has anyone Scientifically proven the right way yet? Is there only ONE RIGHT WAY?
NOT SURE...Alot of us trying though. We have been taking things in stages on the high horsepower project so we can measure and document the results. If we break the motor, we will know why and how to address that problem in the future, as JWT says, "A blown motor without the data is just scrap, but a blown motor with the data and science is a learning tool."
Note: We have been working on venting and fans! Still in progress though. Trying to keep them cool while on the tracks.
M
Last edited by mraturbo; 05-05-2006 at 12:55 PM.
05-05-2006 | 12:59 PM
#134
Originally Posted by mraturbo
That is a fantastic idea. Appreciate your post, we are trying to do all correct, and
Yes you are correct Sharif, "there are many ways to skin a cat," yet has anyone Scientifically proven the right way yet? Is there only ONE RIGHT WAY?
NOT SURE...Alot of us trying though. We have been taking things in stages on the high horsepower project so we can measure and document the results. If we break the motor, we will no why and how to address that problem in the future, as JWT says, "A blown motor without the data is just scrap, but a blown motor with the data and science is a learning tool."
Note: We have been working on venting and fans! Still in progress though. Trying to keep them cool while on the tracks.
M
Yes you are correct Sharif, "there are many ways to skin a cat," yet has anyone Scientifically proven the right way yet? Is there only ONE RIGHT WAY?
NOT SURE...Alot of us trying though. We have been taking things in stages on the high horsepower project so we can measure and document the results. If we break the motor, we will no why and how to address that problem in the future, as JWT says, "A blown motor without the data is just scrap, but a blown motor with the data and science is a learning tool."
Note: We have been working on venting and fans! Still in progress though. Trying to keep them cool while on the tracks.
M
05-05-2006 | 01:05 PM
#135
Originally Posted by overZealous1
a set of push fans would help alot in conjunction with the stock fans. most intercooler set ups will allow room for this.
Larger Radiators
Oil Coolers
The Best Flow Through Intercoolers
Thermal Coating
Additonal Oil Filters
Oil Lines
Venting
Fans
Etc.
Nismo350ZRT
Not sure what you are Insinuating...?
M
Last edited by mraturbo; 05-05-2006 at 01:07 PM.
05-05-2006 | 01:16 PM
#136
The HKS VQ35DE Metal Head Gaskets are 0.7mm thick and feature a 4-layer stopper-type
structure. The stopper-type structure employs a stopper ring around each combustion chamber
that is molded into the head gasket for a precise and strengthened seal. The factory head gasket
is only made from 3 layers and has a bead-type structure. A bead-type head gasket only uses a
raised bead to seal the combustion chamber.
Does any one know if the Cometic head gasket is simular to this HKS head gasket ? Or is the Cometic a better design ?
structure. The stopper-type structure employs a stopper ring around each combustion chamber
that is molded into the head gasket for a precise and strengthened seal. The factory head gasket
is only made from 3 layers and has a bead-type structure. A bead-type head gasket only uses a
raised bead to seal the combustion chamber.
Does any one know if the Cometic head gasket is simular to this HKS head gasket ? Or is the Cometic a better design ?
05-05-2006 | 01:21 PM
#137
Thread Starter
Registered User
iTrader: (27)
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,268
Likes: 1
From: tigard oregon
Originally Posted by booger
The HKS VQ35DE Metal Head Gaskets are 0.7mm thick and feature a 4-layer stopper-type
structure. The stopper-type structure employs a stopper ring around each combustion chamber
that is molded into the head gasket for a precise and strengthened seal. The factory head gasket
is only made from 3 layers and has a bead-type structure. A bead-type head gasket only uses a
raised bead to seal the combustion chamber.
Does any one know if the Cometic head gasket is simular to this HKS head gasket ? Or is the Cometic a better design ?
structure. The stopper-type structure employs a stopper ring around each combustion chamber
that is molded into the head gasket for a precise and strengthened seal. The factory head gasket
is only made from 3 layers and has a bead-type structure. A bead-type head gasket only uses a
raised bead to seal the combustion chamber.
Does any one know if the Cometic head gasket is simular to this HKS head gasket ? Or is the Cometic a better design ?
05-05-2006 | 01:49 PM
#138
Originally Posted by booger
The HKS VQ35DE Metal Head Gaskets are 0.7mm thick and feature a 4-layer stopper-type
structure. The stopper-type structure employs a stopper ring around each combustion chamber
that is molded into the head gasket for a precise and strengthened seal. The factory head gasket
is only made from 3 layers and has a bead-type structure. A bead-type head gasket only uses a
raised bead to seal the combustion chamber.
Does any one know if the Cometic head gasket is simular to this HKS head gasket ? Or is the Cometic a better design ?
structure. The stopper-type structure employs a stopper ring around each combustion chamber
that is molded into the head gasket for a precise and strengthened seal. The factory head gasket
is only made from 3 layers and has a bead-type structure. A bead-type head gasket only uses a
raised bead to seal the combustion chamber.
Does any one know if the Cometic head gasket is simular to this HKS head gasket ? Or is the Cometic a better design ?
Danny
05-05-2006 | 02:16 PM
#139
Originally Posted by booger
Does any one know if the Cometic head gasket is simular to this HKS head gasket ? Or is the Cometic a better design ?
and BTW, we will put together an oil cooler for my car that has a few extras involved, when we figure out costs and whatnot, we'll have a kit on the market
Last edited by 350zDCalb; 05-05-2006 at 02:27 PM.
05-05-2006 | 02:37 PM
#140
Originally Posted by overZealous1
i am most definately having my block set up for o-rings when i do mine fully again.
Last edited by booger; 05-05-2006 at 02:39 PM.