350Z_LEE

iTrader: (9)

lol

Gman2004

iTrader: (8)

I would hardly call your set up out of the box and based on the op's question about going turbo or s/c it sounds like he wants a set it and go kit not a full blown custom kit.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

I think you probably made the best choice for your situation

however, the turbo lag you're talking about being a pain really isn't much worse than driving an NA Z with your mods at low rpms. It'd be about the same up to 2500 rpms, then as you hold your foot down, once you reach 3500-4000 rpms you're absolutely flying.

I mean, the stillen hands down always has the advantage below 2000 rpms than any other setup, but unless you drive around town between 700-2000 rpms, you're probably going to hit at least 3000-4000 rpms if you're giving the car a little gas at all. Otherwise I guess I don't get why you bought a Z in the first place if you never go above 2500 rpms. But even still, going from good boost from idle to 4000 rpms, or going from no boost at idle to huge boost at 4000 rpms, you'd probably end up going just as fast in either situation

gas mileage is probably the same around town, but it might actually be worse with the stillen than with a turbo becasue the stillen is constantly having to be spun

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

I know, I agree and for out of the box I think the stock vortech is pretty damn weak.

I know I'm a bit of the exception, but think it should be noted that the vortech isn't doomed to not have any potential and forever not have decent torque. It'll never make the tq that a similar turbo setup will make though, that's for sure. Few people bother to upgrade vortech setups to their higher potential. I haven't gone to a T-trim blower yet

doug

iTrader: (5)

what is this myth that TT's have more lag than SC's?

Alberto

iTrader: (14)

LMFAO

maximumsportZ

iTrader: (25)

Alberto

iTrader: (14)

Alberto <---- right click, save as....for every time Sentry will preach about S/C power coming on before turbo's. Area under the curve FTW

maximumsportZ

iTrader: (25)

So, Sentry when are you going turbo?

Alberto

iTrader: (14)

Chris your crazy. Waayyyyy too much maintenance with a turbo, who wants instant "throw you in the seat" TQ, great throttle response, no alien spaceship sound when at idle and not having to tighten up belts cuz you cant even make 10psi without it slipping! Your so silly!

maximumsportZ

iTrader: (25)

No I'm kidding he could never do that, that would go against everything he ever said wouldn't it??

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

well if you're going to overlay dynos, at least do it right. What can you tell me about the dyno you're at? Elevation, ambient temp, humidity, correction factor etc?

I'm at 1250 ft, ambient temp was about 80 degrees in the shop, no humidity, and no dyno correction
last I checked, FL was closer to sea level than AZ, but I don't know what shop you tuned at

As you said here in post #7:
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ighlight=401.2
you don't know what correction the dyno is running. for all you know, that's 13% "dynojet correction"
My graph has no correction factor, they're uncorrected numbers

In fact, it almost has to be some form of dynojet correction because there's just no way at 2500 rpms you're making 310tq on an uncorrected dyno dyamics. Even the APS TT dynos at my shop with an APS exhaust and tuned are hitting 270 tq at 2500 rpms. Untuned with the stock exhaust the APS TT kit is hitting 250tq@2500 rpms on my shop's dyno. Surely the APS spools up earlier than the greddy TT you have. I'm looking through my collection of dynocharts, and I found a few that are dynodynamics greddy dynos and none of them approach 310tq at 2500 rpms

Any of the really big dynos like 550whp on a dynodynamics with no correction pull off around 230tq at 2500 rpms and the graph as a whole looks slightly more laggy than lower psi greddy's - probably due to HUGE exhausts

Actually the only one that does almost does have 310 tq (is around 300tq) has 500whp and it's one of the less turbo laggy looking dynos where the tq really comes on early and then stays flat - not sure who's it was though, But I can post it
Oh, and I found another greddy dyno on a dynojet making about 430-440whp and at 2500 rpms he's making 260tq. So either your greddy is somehow better than all these other cars with greddy's, or there's some fudging of dyno numbers at work

BTW what's up with the funky dip in your powerband? Mine is nice, smooth, and predictable all the way through and the tq does not drop like a rock after 5500 rpms like yours is. As I said, I'm making more power when I reach 12psi which this graph isn't showing.



obviously you guys should know the vortech is a centrifugal so I don't even get how my 6 psi at 4000 rpms can compare with 8 psi, especially when just a little boost at 4000 rpms adds a lot of tq since that's where the engine is the most efficient. That's part of the reason I thought my 3.9 final drive I already had on my car would suit the vortech.

as far as turbo lag/throttle response, at low-mid rpms, the vortech's response will be instant though it won't push as much power after a .1-.2 second delay like on your turbo. If you're racing, why be concerned with anything under 4500 rpms though? Even in a drag race you're going to launch at 3000 rpms minimum and then spend the rest of the time during the race between 4500-6600+ rpms

doug

iTrader: (5)

http://www.vortechdynos.com found some more of your dynos

doug

iTrader: (5)

Actually others have found there wasn't much difference

doug

iTrader: (5)

you are running 12 PSI.. and i am running 8 PSI.. are you really bragging about that? plus your car has cams and other ****.. i still have stock exhaust.. .. my only power mod is the Greddy TT Kit.. are you really comparing?

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

I'm runnning 10 psi in that graph. My car now runs 12 psi

yes I'm comparing.

I'm not convinced your bone stock car with a greddy kit can outrun my car (see sig for mods list) despite you having more midrange power than me despite that your dyno quite possibly has some sort of correction factor on it to skew your numbers to look better than my dyno's uncorrected dyno

I have the 3.9 FD to help bridge any gap in tq as far as what the wheels are seeing and I'll be at 10.7% higher rpms than you in most cases. When I'm not, you'll have to shift shortly after anyway

My car weighing 20 lbs less than stock is most likely quite a bit lighter than yours which probably weighs around 100-120 lbs?? more than stock. It's interesting when you consider the rule of thumb that 100 lbs = about 15 crank hp. I can't say for sure though because you don't have your list of mods anywhere

My car had other objectives than just area under the curve. I wanted predictability and better handling and so a lot of my money goes into the handling dept. If I was all about the big number I'd dumped it all into a built engine with a greddy TT kit and pretty much have Alberto's current setup


besides, according to AAM, they haven't seen much improvement with cams on the vortech cars they've tuned, just lower psi and a slight gain power pretty much just like the NA gains. We can play "other people said.." game all day though...

if we're comparing $ spent, then even that's hard to figure out because it just gets hard to quantify. But for money spent in comparison to area under the curve, yup you win

you have a nice car man with a lot of potential available to you. You're the one that wanted to single my car out and compare it to yours directly, so let's really do it and not just compare one aspect



btw what happened to your nismo exhaust that you had on your car?
https://my350z.com/forum/showpost.ph...09&postcount=9

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

I dunno man, should I?
I guess maybe I wouldn't get attacked by the turbo vultures as much


um ok. The only thing I EVER said about the vortech making boost at all before a turbo was basically 2000 rpms and below I make 1.2 psi or less vs 0 psi on a turbo. Is it a big deal? not really, but it's noticable - makes for easier day to day take offs at least

Shortly after that, we all know the turbos fully spool up first

Enron Exec

The solenoid on the APS TT kit was designed to built power and torque linearly. The idea was to preserve the linear power of a track car. Hypothetically, if someone where to weld the wastegates shut, you would be at full boost, assuming stock compression, before 3500 rpms in 2nd gear on the APS TT kit.

I didnt read the whole thread but why are you guys comparing apples to oranges?

doug

iTrader: (5)

big whoop.. i am running 8

thats sad

you don't have to be convinced.. the numbers are there.. the dyno curve is there.. what more do you want? Anything short of us racing and you in AZ and i in CT.. nothing else really matters but the numbers

are you kidding me? now you are comparing weight? do you even know what my car weighs? how can you even go into that comparison.. unbelievable the excuses i tell you.

i am not concerned with what you wanted for your car.. the fact is i still have more area under the curve than you with less boost

so why did you waste your money buying them?


I never singled you out.. my dyno comparison was to this post

unfortunately your dyno chart was conviently in this thread.. you noticed when i posted the comparison i didn't quote you or mention your name...



I dunno.. you tell me.. when i bought the car.. the dealer told me it had a Nismo Exhaust.. but Julian tells me its a stock exhaust.. and do you really think the nismo exhaust makes that much power over stock? maybe sound.. not power

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

EXACTLY! big whoop indeed.

If I put on test pipes, a 3 inch exhaust, and a stroker kit, I'd run *only* 8 psi too.

with a turbo you can pretty much change your exhaust and engine size (up to a point) all day and your psi won't change as long as you're using the same wastegate spring and not using a boost controller. The only thing that really WILL change with a huge exhaust is an earlier spool up. Otherwise the wastegate has a job to do and does it

SC and turbo psi aren't fully compatible or at least don't work the same way. SC's lack a wastegate and SC's make finite amounts of power that all goes in the engine vs a turbo that makes excess power and heat that ends up going out the wastegate. SC's psi changes as you change how big the engine and exhaust are

I actually believe you and I are stressing our engines somewhat equally overall but in different ways. You running more psi at low rpms when the engine isn't turning as fast which isn't good for it. Where I'm running more boost at high rpms when the engine can breath is bad on it. I know not all will agree though, but there's evidence for to support either way which is worse for the engine. I can go on and on about these issues and argue for both sides. In the end I think it's somewhat of a wash when you look at other factors

but yes, the greddy's huge intercooler and slightly more efficient turbos will give you more hp per psi. If arguing hp per psi is your cup of tea, then go for it. No SC can touch a turbo in that regard. Victory for you I'm more interested in just making the most out of my setup as far as what the stock block will hold - regardless what my boost gauge says.

Besides, I probably make around 440-455whp @12 psi on my shop's dyno dynamics with no correction, that isn't all that bad...What do you think your car would run at 12 psi at redline on the stock exhaust? You're only making 360whp at redline...You'd just flat out need to upgrade the exhaust or you'll have diminishing returns and overheat the engine by trapping the heat in


ok you got me man, nothing else matters. You win. Lotus , Ariel, and Ferrari can just stop even bothering to try to make fast cars without huge torque numbers or area under the curve.

Weight and gearing don't seem to matter either so I'll mention that to the F1 race teams that they have it all wrong. They don't need to weigh 1200 lbs or rev to 19000 rpms or use aggressive gearing with fast gearboxes

sounds to me like you wish you were driving a diesel engine reving to 3000 rpms instead? they have MONSTEROUS torque and huge overall area under the curve


yes I'm comparing weight.

you sound like an F-body guy only you're not spewing out "no replacement for displacement"
Do YOU know how much your car weighs?

I didn't even bring up rotational mass but that's something you might read up on that too. If we factor that into the dead weight that 1 lb or rotational mass on the crank, transmission, or driveshaft = 7 lbs of dead weight and 1 lb of rotational mass on the axels, rotors, wheels, tires, lug nuts is = to around 3 lbs of dead weight, my car would actually weigh something like 200-250 lbs less than your car as far as accelleration is concerned

you can convert that info back into your 'area under the curve' fixation where if we average that to be 225 lbs of dead weight = 34 crank hp which is around 28 whp.
Using hp=(tq * rpm)/5250, means that's about a 22 tq at the wheels difference.
So 225 lbs is ballpark equal to about 22 tq at the wheels at any rpm, but yeah sorry that doesn't get factored into the "area under the curve" comparison and I'm sure it means absolutely nothing in a race......

so?? and???

.....all this time I thought who's faster was what mainly mattered when I should have been trying to figure out how to drop a diesel engine in my Z....


already had them on my car. Engine was out anyway so wasn't all that expensive. Was back from my NA days

then what's the deal with your graph and acting high and mighty about it?
you DON'T EVEN KNOW the info about your dyno chart - correction, outside ambient temp, elevation, etc
even still, there's a lot more to making a car fast than area under the curve - it's a contributing factor, but so are other things

as if you had to? It even shows my screen name on the graph in two places. It was obviously my car's dyno and I was actively posting in this thread. It's not like I wouldn't see that it's mine

It makes a little power. With a turbo, I wouldn't doubt it accounts for 10-13whp - obviously not ideal for a turbo. It says NISMO on the muffler in raised lettering, can't miss it

From your picture, it's a stock exhaust. The exhaust tips are the stock ones. The nismo's are different and angle slightly upward






look man, lets just agree that our Z's are faster than stock then ok