vortech FAQ: read this before asking vortech questions
12-03-2011, 03:20 PM
#1641
Problem is that I think a t trim would be too big for my high compression, but at the same time the T trim flows about the same as a SCi with a 928 impeller
I will continue using uprev, it has done me well in the past and I have seen cars with much more power there in Austin running it
I will continue using uprev, it has done me well in the past and I have seen cars with much more power there in Austin running it
Last edited by Classy; 12-03-2011 at 03:32 PM.
12-03-2011, 04:56 PM
#1643
I read up on high compression motors with superchargers, ironically, the place where I found the most info was on the mustang forums. Alot of guys run it there, and seems to be fine. From what I have read, you don't need such a low compression ratio as you do with a turbo, because there are no boost spikes and the power comes on gradually instead of when the turbo hits. I guess I am more concerned with not over doing the supercharger and making sure I still stay safe with the motor. It has ARP head and rod hardware and is pretty well built. I only have a 3 angle valve job and stock valves below the JWT C8 cams and JWT springs/retainers, but from what I have read, there doesn't seem to be alot of power to be had from head work. I put down 292hp/265tq when it was 106 degrees outside, after a few thousand more miles, the motor seemed to get more power and start running better. I am tempted to change out the exhaust and go do a few dyno pulls in Austin in the spring to see where I am. PLUS it will be nice to get a solid before dyno in non 106 degree heat to go off of (and I want to see 300+hp out of my current setup!!).
I am going to do some cooling upgrades and put an OS Giken diff in before I go and start investing in the supercharger and everything that comes with it. I guess I want a car that is prepared for a supercharger rather than trying to get a car to catch up with the supercharger.
Sorry for rambling, haha
I am going to do some cooling upgrades and put an OS Giken diff in before I go and start investing in the supercharger and everything that comes with it. I guess I want a car that is prepared for a supercharger rather than trying to get a car to catch up with the supercharger.
Sorry for rambling, haha
Last edited by Classy; 12-03-2011 at 04:58 PM.
12-03-2011, 06:21 PM
#1644
New Member
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: terre haute, IN; STL, MO
Posts: 6,457
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
couple things are off base in the last few posts.
First, a 255 walbro with a vortech runs out around 500whp. I know because mine did. You need about 40% more fuel on e85 so you will be reaching to hit 400hp on a walbro 255 with e85.
Supercharger eats more fuel than a turbo by far.
600cc injectors will flow 216LPH of fuel. Just shy of what walbro 255 will flow.
Walbro 255LPH will flow enough to support 6 708cc injectors at 100% duty cycle (wide open). Any injector larger than that is over the amount your fuel pump will flow and isn't needed.
DW300 will support 833cc injectors at 100% duty cycle
aero 340LPH will support 944cc injectors at 100% duty cycle.
So getting 1200cc injectors on a walbro 255 will not give you any increase in fueling. No injector past the max flow of the fuel pump will do any better.
So, at a minimum i would say that the 340 would be needed for an e85 setup but i don't think it will go very far with hp.
So let's do some theoretical calculations based on what i personally have used.
507hp on vortech. We will call it 500 for easy calculations. that was the max on a walbro 255 with pumpgas.
So i was using 255LPH of fuel for 500hp on a vortech. That would be roughly 700cc injectors maxed out.
So far i'm seeing about 35% increase in fuel required for my e85 setup.
700ccx1.35= 945cc in order to just change fuels. Aero 340 is tapped out at 944cc so in "theory" you should be able to get 500hp out of 1000cc injectors and an aero 340 fuel pump.
This is if everything plays nicely. Each engine is different so maybe yours will need 40% more fuel or it might need only 30% more fuel increase. Who knows. Just be aware that e85 requires a boat load more fuel and there is no reason to buy huge injectors. Match the injectors to the amount of fuel your pump can flow. To be safe you should get injectors that will be 80% duty cycle at the level your fuel pump can support.
about the compression. Compression shouldn't be a worry. You will just have less timing than if you had 9:1 compression. In truth it will work best with higher compression because you can run a smaller pulley (less boost) and still get the desired output in hp. Might even produce slightly more power because the supercharger is more efficient at lower boost therefore generating less heat. Lower IAT=MORE POWWA!
First, a 255 walbro with a vortech runs out around 500whp. I know because mine did. You need about 40% more fuel on e85 so you will be reaching to hit 400hp on a walbro 255 with e85.
Supercharger eats more fuel than a turbo by far.
600cc injectors will flow 216LPH of fuel. Just shy of what walbro 255 will flow.
Walbro 255LPH will flow enough to support 6 708cc injectors at 100% duty cycle (wide open). Any injector larger than that is over the amount your fuel pump will flow and isn't needed.
DW300 will support 833cc injectors at 100% duty cycle
aero 340LPH will support 944cc injectors at 100% duty cycle.
So getting 1200cc injectors on a walbro 255 will not give you any increase in fueling. No injector past the max flow of the fuel pump will do any better.
So, at a minimum i would say that the 340 would be needed for an e85 setup but i don't think it will go very far with hp.
So let's do some theoretical calculations based on what i personally have used.
507hp on vortech. We will call it 500 for easy calculations. that was the max on a walbro 255 with pumpgas.
So i was using 255LPH of fuel for 500hp on a vortech. That would be roughly 700cc injectors maxed out.
So far i'm seeing about 35% increase in fuel required for my e85 setup.
700ccx1.35= 945cc in order to just change fuels. Aero 340 is tapped out at 944cc so in "theory" you should be able to get 500hp out of 1000cc injectors and an aero 340 fuel pump.
This is if everything plays nicely. Each engine is different so maybe yours will need 40% more fuel or it might need only 30% more fuel increase. Who knows. Just be aware that e85 requires a boat load more fuel and there is no reason to buy huge injectors. Match the injectors to the amount of fuel your pump can flow. To be safe you should get injectors that will be 80% duty cycle at the level your fuel pump can support.
about the compression. Compression shouldn't be a worry. You will just have less timing than if you had 9:1 compression. In truth it will work best with higher compression because you can run a smaller pulley (less boost) and still get the desired output in hp. Might even produce slightly more power because the supercharger is more efficient at lower boost therefore generating less heat. Lower IAT=MORE POWWA!
12-03-2011, 07:41 PM
#1646
Binder, those numbers sound about right, I definitely know that e85 eats fuel, but if you have access to it and you setup the fuel system right, it is pretty nice! Kinda crazy that I would max out the 340 to get around 500hp. The 928 upgrades won't be for a bit, I want to run the stock vortech, make sure it runs like a champ, make any adjustments in tune and or parts and when I can afford it and I am ready I will push harder. I will probably buy the fuel system for the later setup, no point in buying it twice. You think a CJM stage 0 is enough for that setup??
4shizzle, which setup, the stock or the 928 setup
4shizzle, which setup, the stock or the 928 setup
12-04-2011, 02:12 PM
#1647
New Member
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: terre haute, IN; STL, MO
Posts: 6,457
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
i would use a cjm stage 1. Since you are flowing 40% more fuel you need to remove that very tiny oem hard line as well as the small fuel rails.
stage 1 changes the stock hard line that's 5/16" to 1/2"
rails are upgraded as well. the new rails will even have HR style oem dampers on it.
stage 1 changes the stock hard line that's 5/16" to 1/2"
rails are upgraded as well. the new rails will even have HR style oem dampers on it.
12-04-2011, 02:18 PM
#1648
i would use a cjm stage 1. Since you are flowing 40% more fuel you need to remove that very tiny oem hard line as well as the small fuel rails.
stage 1 changes the stock hard line that's 5/16" to 1/2"
rails are upgraded as well. the new rails will even have HR style oem dampers on it.
stage 1 changes the stock hard line that's 5/16" to 1/2"
rails are upgraded as well. the new rails will even have HR style oem dampers on it.
12-04-2011, 04:46 PM
#1650
Agreed on most of what binder said on the fueling needs.
Classy, just keep in mind that with running osiris you don't have the benefit of FlexFuel like the GM cars do and how the ProEFI does it. Unless if you can get e85 everywhere and anytime then I think it's safe thing to do for DD. I'm sure you know but your mileage range obviously is going to be cut in half. I debated this option myself and given the spread in fueling location and my inability to guarantee the ethanol content in my tank i opted against it. My range would have been freaking 150miles at best per full tank of e85....
Regarding the max impeller speed, it's probably true that short sustained over spinning is not detrimental but the stress on the impeller is not a linear relationship with rpm speed. So overspinning by 5% more doesn't directly correlate to 5% more stress. For that matter, you might be way off in the efficiency range so overspinning might turn out to be doing more harm then good, so take a good look at the compressor flow map and see if it fits your setup. BTW anyone knows if there are any published MTBF for the vortech?
Classy, just keep in mind that with running osiris you don't have the benefit of FlexFuel like the GM cars do and how the ProEFI does it. Unless if you can get e85 everywhere and anytime then I think it's safe thing to do for DD. I'm sure you know but your mileage range obviously is going to be cut in half. I debated this option myself and given the spread in fueling location and my inability to guarantee the ethanol content in my tank i opted against it. My range would have been freaking 150miles at best per full tank of e85....
Regarding the max impeller speed, it's probably true that short sustained over spinning is not detrimental but the stress on the impeller is not a linear relationship with rpm speed. So overspinning by 5% more doesn't directly correlate to 5% more stress. For that matter, you might be way off in the efficiency range so overspinning might turn out to be doing more harm then good, so take a good look at the compressor flow map and see if it fits your setup. BTW anyone knows if there are any published MTBF for the vortech?
12-04-2011, 05:00 PM
#1651
Not sure what you mean by pushing the fueling really hard and how that's gonna affect the the injection. The injection is mainly helping your IAT. It's not going to reduce your IDC or any fueling related stress, unless if i missed something.
12-04-2011, 06:46 PM
#1652
No, I understand that e85 is for IAT's and performs the same function as meth does in a different way. What I am saying is that it seems like I would be almost benificial to run a twin pump and injectors big enough that guys with 600+ hp would be using. I know about all of the cons of e85 mainly the corrosive nature, terrible gas mileage and the higher flow needed to run it. It will not be my DD much longer, but at the same time, there is a provision in Osiris for different fuels, I have 2 tunes for them now (91 and 93), with the flip of the cruise control switch I could be running from 93 to e85. If I went from e85, lets say 7000 rpm redline, to a 93 octane tune that would reduce the redline to make the engine safer to run because I really dont think you can turn down boost from a solenoid. I am just using this for example.
12-04-2011, 07:53 PM
#1653
^Correct ethanol and methanol have very similar latent heat properties but the location where they are used is quite different. There is a provision in Osiris for different fuels but not mixture of fuels. So it's one or the other, unlike the ProEFI or GM FlexFuel that measures in real time the ethanol content and interpolates between the two maps you have for gas and e85. On top of that there have been a lot of talk about many e85 fueling station being off spec with their e85 quality.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/cleancit...ifications.pdf
Edit:
Correct on the solenoid. It's not meant to regulate/control boost but to bleed boost out in the case something went wrong with your water injection.
BTW, not trying to be an a$$ just sharing info.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/cleancit...ifications.pdf
Edit:
Correct on the solenoid. It's not meant to regulate/control boost but to bleed boost out in the case something went wrong with your water injection.
BTW, not trying to be an a$$ just sharing info.
Last edited by gabe3d; 12-04-2011 at 08:58 PM.
12-04-2011, 11:33 PM
#1654
Oh no, I am 100% posting in this thread for info!! I also know about the shaky ethonal standards, and that kinda scares me... Maybe I would be better off running meth, it is stupid cheap and I can turn that off via tune the way I discussed e85 above unless I am mistaken. I don't run a spare tire anyway, so maybe I could fit something in there.
I understand impeller speed, iat's, air fuel and all that, but discussing it this way almost makes it seem too simple, like I am missing something. So do you just log IAT's, a/f, and pay attention for knock and if everything is fine, push further?
I understand impeller speed, iat's, air fuel and all that, but discussing it this way almost makes it seem too simple, like I am missing something. So do you just log IAT's, a/f, and pay attention for knock and if everything is fine, push further?
12-05-2011, 10:17 PM
#1655
New Member
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: terre haute, IN; STL, MO
Posts: 6,457
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
stage 1 has upgraded fuel rails, upgraded hardline.
stage 0: stock fuel rails, stock crappy tiny hard line
And yes, the size of the piping/fuel rails does affect how much you can get out of a pump. If there is greater resistance from smaller lines then the pump won't be able to flow as much as it would with less restriction. This becomes a large factor when you are going to be stretching a single pump on e85.
e85 being corrosive is kind of a myth. It's true, it is corrosive, but not to the extent that the internet rumors make you think. With modern engine parts and fuel systems the amount of corrosive nature isn't going to affect it. I think the reason most things tend to corrode more with e85 is the lack of petroleum that is provided from regular petroleum fuel more than the properties of the alcohol. Probably best saying its' a combo of both.
Tuning is a complicated process yet still a very simple process. On e85 you won't be listening/logging knock though. You will be way past max burn time on e85 before it will knock. So with high octane fuels like that and race gas you tune to max peak tq. You watch the tq curve on a dyno and it will stop producing power with subsequent raises in timing when it nears the max burn time. If you keep advancing timing it will start to lose power. After you do that too much then you will finally find the knock point.
so ya, alcohol based and high octane fuels you tune more to a torque curve than you do knock. Of course you always listen for knock just in case. Never know when **** will go wrong.
stage 0: stock fuel rails, stock crappy tiny hard line
And yes, the size of the piping/fuel rails does affect how much you can get out of a pump. If there is greater resistance from smaller lines then the pump won't be able to flow as much as it would with less restriction. This becomes a large factor when you are going to be stretching a single pump on e85.
e85 being corrosive is kind of a myth. It's true, it is corrosive, but not to the extent that the internet rumors make you think. With modern engine parts and fuel systems the amount of corrosive nature isn't going to affect it. I think the reason most things tend to corrode more with e85 is the lack of petroleum that is provided from regular petroleum fuel more than the properties of the alcohol. Probably best saying its' a combo of both.
Tuning is a complicated process yet still a very simple process. On e85 you won't be listening/logging knock though. You will be way past max burn time on e85 before it will knock. So with high octane fuels like that and race gas you tune to max peak tq. You watch the tq curve on a dyno and it will stop producing power with subsequent raises in timing when it nears the max burn time. If you keep advancing timing it will start to lose power. After you do that too much then you will finally find the knock point.
so ya, alcohol based and high octane fuels you tune more to a torque curve than you do knock. Of course you always listen for knock just in case. Never know when **** will go wrong.
12-06-2011, 06:39 AM
#1656
Binder, those numbers sound about right, I definitely know that e85 eats fuel, but if you have access to it and you setup the fuel system right, it is pretty nice! Kinda crazy that I would max out the 340 to get around 500hp. The 928 upgrades won't be for a bit, I want to run the stock vortech, make sure it runs like a champ, make any adjustments in tune and or parts and when I can afford it and I am ready I will push harder. I will probably buy the fuel system for the later setup, no point in buying it twice. You think a CJM stage 0 is enough for that setup??
4shizzle, which setup, the stock or the 928 setup
4shizzle, which setup, the stock or the 928 setup
I hit 422/365 at 14psi with my T Trim on my 8.8 compression good ole 93
That guy with the 928 (high stock 10.3.1 compression) made 450 at 12psi with the 928 on 93
add higher compression and more timining I say one degrees is about 30rwhp. and with e-fuel you have timing to spare... 500 all day my friend.
Binder drops back breaking post on this stuf. Him and St8dum are vortech beast on here. cant go wrong with the two of them posting and lurking around.
two thumbs up, I appreci8 both you guys and Sentry by default.
12-06-2011, 07:12 AM
#1657
I guess I am just making sure when I get a vortech is that I run it safe. I am kinda tempted to troll the private classifieds for a used vortech kit and rebuild it off the bat with the 928 and better bearings. I would like to think I have been researched a lot, but I feel like I am missing something still.
And yes! Thank you very much for the info posted here!
And yes! Thank you very much for the info posted here!
12-06-2011, 09:45 AM
#1659
I don't have the funds now, but I saw that deal, if I did, I would have jumped on it
Also, After doing some further research and weighing to cost and benefits of meth VS E85, I am pretty impressed with how far meth injection has come, and I like the idea of 93 pump gas and still getting decent gas mileage. AND, the E85 setup really seems kinda expensive to run... I would be almost on the border of a twin pump and massive injectors to push past 500hp. Where as an Aeromotive and probably 750cc ish injectors with meth would probably do the same power with less money, and I am going to see what I can do about making a tank to fit in my spare tire well of my car.
Also, After doing some further research and weighing to cost and benefits of meth VS E85, I am pretty impressed with how far meth injection has come, and I like the idea of 93 pump gas and still getting decent gas mileage. AND, the E85 setup really seems kinda expensive to run... I would be almost on the border of a twin pump and massive injectors to push past 500hp. Where as an Aeromotive and probably 750cc ish injectors with meth would probably do the same power with less money, and I am going to see what I can do about making a tank to fit in my spare tire well of my car.
Last edited by Classy; 12-06-2011 at 03:27 PM.