Michael-Dallas

Please do not put words in my mouth. You can do whatever floats your boat, but I personally think there are cheaper and better means to go down the 1/4.

Who am I? I am the anti-BLING BLING. If you're going to make your 350 fast w/ mAd pOwAh and make it handle like a go-kart, then come out and play at an HPDE. Just leave the "it's too expensive or I can't afford it" excuses at home.

But, but, but you can't cheat physics, period. I'd hate to use Lingenfelter as an example (especially since I am acquainted w/ John and Kerri Page -- you know, Lingenfelter's daughter and son-in-law who also owns the yellow TT C5 that recently won the C&D Supercar Shootout), but how often do you think that Cavalier motor gets rebuilt? I can slap on a 500-shot of nitrous in the 350, go down the 1/4 fast (might take me a few tries to master the launch), but I guarantee you the VQ will grenade MUCH quicker w/ that abuse.

Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet the stress on a turbo motor (even a factory turbo motor) would be less on the 1/4 than on a roadcourse. One 20 minute session on a roadcourse where you're either on full throttle or hard braking is far more stressful than a < 13 second run at the 1/4 given equal motors.

There are reasons why Nissan chose not to up the boost in the VG30DETT (to at least increase 300ZX sales), partly because of emissions, but more importantly Nissan would not be able to guarantee the reliability of the motor (i.e. it's no longer "bulletproof"). The VG30DETT is a de-tuned race engine and for the most part still over-built, but once you increase the power levels, it becomes less "over-built."

No harm, no foul. I've got a thick skin and I can be the keyboard warrior (I can dish it out and I can take it in). Like I said, I went through the whole phase. I loved my 300, but I never enjoyed it for what it was worth. It's personally frustrating to see others go through the phase I went through.

Michael.

Michael-Dallas

The increased pressures from boost will affect (and will eventually take its toll on) the: piston rings, pistons, rods, crank, block (although its girdled, it's still open deck), and who knows what else. Of course, the effect is further multiplied when detonation occurs. Like I said in my reply above, the motor may be over-built, however, it becomes less over-built given boost.

There is a coffee table book from Ron Sessions called "Lust, Then Love." I'm sure you've heard of it (or even have the book). I'd say the Nissan engineers spent a great deal of time and focused on the suspension and handling. Why else would they market FM like the second coming? Why else would they target the S2000 and Boxster S? The Z has a rich history in road racing.

For the most part, you are correct and I agree. I'm saying that anytime you add boost to an NA engine, then the risk of detonation increases. The risk may be next to nil on the street, but it may increase dramatically when on the track.

Michael.

westpak

iTrader: (19)

Thanks Michael-Dallas, but you just have gone down the frustrating road I mistakingly went down trying to just share some advice, not just from me but from performance guys who do turbo installs, these guys just don't want to listen to the possible realities that would come with FI.

They want proof of what we are saying yet they have no proof of what they are saying either, they say you get a warranty, wow, that will be useless since it only will cover the turbo and not your engine, if they give me a 3 year 36 month warranty on their turbo and the engine I will be the first in line to buy one, these guys don't realize that they will be the R&D, good luck with your 12 month warranty and read the fine print.

If any one them would do an HPDE they will be hooked as you said and will start to think tires/brakes/suspension plus driving skill and the last would be more power.

I hate to keep this going but wanted to acknowledge you.

Z350Maniac

wasn't trying to put words with those two in"" I mentioned (basically) before I said them, but I should have clarified more. Sorry for that misconception.

Furthermore, you and your track comrades seem to think we all want boost to throw it on a road course. Me, personally, I own an autocross vehicle myself and to be honest, it's only cost me about $20K, NO WAY in hell am I throwing my nice BRAND NEW $30K unmodded Z on a track such as a roadcourse to destroy it. Some of us don't make the $85K+/year to take our pride and joy on a track to wreck/ruin it and then spend $k's more fixing it (BTW once wrecked it will NEVER be the same.) BUT if you're able to do so, I say kudos and best of luck, show em what the Z can do. It's not "my bag" I'm a drag strip rat. I get my rocks off charging down a straight strip of pavement listening to a a 3.5l engine just screaming in delight begging for more as I pace towards that finish line. No worries, no cares about the driver next to me, I don't have to think about his driving abilities as he'll be in his lane and I in mine. When it's all said and done I can say I had fun, if I can have the fun all the while going faster (i.e. FI) then I'll leave the track with a smile on my face. Everyday driving to me is like being on a road course, I can't do 140 (legally) down a city street, it's not about beating someone or drifitng around a turn, it's about "going faster and faster until the fear of death is overcome by the thrill of speed." for me.

I see your point about wear and tear on a road track, but there are other applications in the motorsports world besides road course racing, and as such, a turbo would seem a worthy modification to those who agree with that last statement.

350Z33

So after all of this is said and done does anyone here think that the VQ35DE can't take 6-10psi daily if detontation is controlled?

Z350Maniac

6-10... I wouldn't say... maybe 6-8 tops without digging into the lower end to reinforce. Like it was mentioned, the more you put in FI-wise, the more you're going to break. I wouldn't push the pressure much past 7 psi to be on the safe side. Even then, you're looking at another 60-120 hp (<--- A LOOSE GUESTIMATE)

austin350z

I've been reading over a lot of these posts, and I have to agree that adding a supercharger will shorten your engine life if you're going to be autox ing... but on that note, if you're driving around on a track, you're going to shorten your engine life anyway. If you set things up right, and don't go crazy w/ your boost, I don't think that there will be a lot of damage or shortening of your engine life.

I think what some people here are trying to say is that if you're going to be taking your car to the track, you have to have a lot of spare cash to spend on fixing things anyway, so you might as well go for more power for the straight sections of the course. Also, 99 percent of Z owners will never take their cars to the track, thus if you're going for more power on the street and around town, or for the drag strip, this is a worthwhile product for those people.

As others have said, to each their own, all this post was supposed to be showing was a new product coming out that will be an alternative to other superchargers and turbos. This wasn't meant to be a FI or not to FI debate. That being said, if anyone finds new info on this product, please keep everyone updated.

As far as power gains, without getting into too much guessing, it will definitely be more than stealins for sure, and it won't require tapping into the oilpan or removing the anti-roll bar. I would estimate the power gains to put it around 350 rwhp roughly at 7psi. This is a rough estimate, but if you know other people with similar setups from ATI, then this is actually somewhat conservative.

XBS

iTrader: (29)

Well i am one of those that likes to have the balance between having a powerful car ( i will be intrested in the superchargers seems like a good company ) i also like it to be able to handle good ( i will probally geting tein EFDC later on ) and i like my car to be pretty too ( 19" GT-Cs comming thats why i need to power )

Jason

[QUOTE]Originally posted by westpak
They want proof of what we are saying yet they have no proof of what they are saying either...QUOTE]

Proof or not, the following companies have been producing reliable supercharger systems for a long long long time...

Toyota/TRD
Jackson Racing
Comptech
Vortech

Many of their applications include high compression N/A engines.

Are you taking a risk? Yes. Is your drivetrain warranty out the window? Yup. Am I going to get one? Maybe a few years down the line if they have been running well on 350Zs for a while.

Look, I'm not saying bolting on a supercharger is something to be taken lightly. I just don't subscribe to the paranoia that if you add reasonable boost your engine is instant toast.

DrCold

Back on the subject of ATI...

I've known of ATI for quite some time. They are a big name in the FI arena with Dodge Dakotas (where im originaly from). The ATI kits always proved to be very reliable, have very high outputs, and be cost effective. After reading this post, i'm going to be keeping a close eye on ATI.

My first plan was to get a twin turbo kit. Be it from Greddy, PE, or whoever, i wanted a twin turbo kit. But now that i read about ATI, i'm going to put that plan on hold. Now im not saying im completely ditching turbos because some company is now making a supercharger kit. I'm just going to pay attention because ATI has always been at the top of my book.

From looking at dyno charts, and driving my car, I think a supercharger would best complment the current power output of the Z. Now, i could be totaly off base here, but a I just prefer a flatter curve with low peak numbers than a sharp curve with high numbers.

My advice? Go with what you want. The turbo vs. s/c vs. na war has been going on for along time. Personally i could care less if my engine's life span was shorted because i used a turbo or s/c. There's no way i could buy another one either. Hell, i cant hardly pay for the Z it self. But i'm going to do some sort of FI. Why? Because its fun.

-DrCold

jak

I personally don't care about the warranty or extended engine life myself. I bought the car with the intention of modifiying it and as a third vehicle driven in fair weather.

I had a Maxima with close to 200,000 miles on it and it still ran beautifully. If by adding FI to my 350Z shortens my engine life by half to 100,000 who cares. That is more than 14 years of driving!

I have never owned a car 14 years.

If this car was my only mode of transportation then I personally wouldn't be doing any modifications and probably not be on this board.

Jeff

DrCold

I guess thats why everyone thinks im crazy. The Z is my only car, and my daily driver. I put about 800-1000 miles a week on the car. But thats mostly because i just enjoy driving it. I will do some sort of FI, and i will probably pay the price for it.

I put almost 50k miles on my supercharged 2001 Dodge Dakota. I used a roots style blower from Kenne Bell at about 6.5 PSI. It ran just as good the day i traded it in as the day i first put the blower on.

After owning a vehical with FI, i dont think i can every own a car (for very long) with out it. Ah, more power! Grunt Grunt Grunt.

-DrCold

cbsuper

I can't imagine putting those kinds of miles on my car. In fact I'm going to get a daily driver and park the Z and take it out only when I go racing or out on the town with my fiance.

wileecoyte

One more thing to add, a lot of people are saying go to an HPDE and you'll be cured of your need for a power fix. Have they been to an HPDE? There you find some of the worst of the worst as far as everything. First it usually starts with suspension and simple things like that, then they start going after power and crazy weight reduction. The BMW CCA guys I've seen will pay mucho money for engine items that add minimal HP for an extra little edge. Things like $1000 headers that literally add less than 5 HP. I don't buy into only drag racers want more power. Everyone wants an edge.

I want my car to be able to stay with just about anything in a straight line, in the twisties, or on a road course, and still be very liveble as a daily driver. For a lot of us adding some extra power is desired and a RESPONSIBLY boosted supercharger or turbocharger will do that. I'd rather keep the motor NA but getting a lot more power would most likely prove HUGELY expensive and still not yield a nice flexible motor. And yes there is a small number of people who will push the limits and\or are too stupid to know they are pushing the limits and will pop motors.

The ATI is looking very good with the intercooling, but I'll probably still wait for the daring few to go out and get them right away and then make my decision.

wileecoyte

Just to clarify the above, just saying that some people push the limits knowingly, whilst others do so with no knowledge of what they are doing. "sure crank up another few pounds... it'll be fine." People are going to break motors, especially with turbos where you're not boost limited. But such is life, I'll go with an extra dose of power please.

XBS

iTrader: (29)

my Z is also my daily driver / only car (besides my moms) and i have put 8k miles since jan 9 (when i bought it )

zland

I strongly suggest everyone reads the ATI Procharger webpages /www.procharger.com/intercooled.shtml . I learned alot from reading their technical information. Maybe some of you are mechanical engineers and know all of this but for me it helped. If what they are saying is correct, their adding an intercooler to the supercharger reduces heat thus allowing more boost. "It is rarely boost that causes detonation, just unnecessary heat. An intercooler is such a natural solution for forced induction". They claim heat which causes detonation is the real threat to durability to your motor. They feel they can safely run a higher boost because of the intercooler. There is a chart on the webpage showing that their intercooler allows them to run a car at over 12 psi and it is as safe as others superchargers without an intercooler running under 5psi. Hmm, does this make sense to everyone or is there skeptics after reading the webpage?

I know that this is their webpage thus information is leaning towards making their product looking good. Maybe some of you with experience can offer feedback after reading the webpage. Maybe you might question their theory that boost does not effect a motor negatively, but only heat. They claim changing timing, injectors etc is a poor bandaide to tunning a FI car and that the reduction in heat by means of an intercooler is the best method. Again, I am new to this game so don't blast me. If you have additional experience, then help me out as I learn. My goal is to get the most reliable motor with good HP gain and meet smog.

Jeff

zland

Here is a statement made on the ATI webpage....

zland

Here is the ATI Procharger graph on safe boost for intercooled superchargers and without.

Again, read all of webpage www.procharger.com/intercooled.shtml before making comments.

Jeff

zland

Here is another chart to check out....