Performance Factory saves you guys money (stock block boosted cars)
05-29-2007, 01:05 PM
#161
Originally Posted by taurran
I think he just added it in there to illustrate that he had a number of cars running returnless systems. You guys have just grabbed onto that small phrase and blown it out of proportion. I'm assuming it's because the argument concerning stock blocks has no validity and you're derailing the thread to the subject of built motors.
05-29-2007, 01:07 PM
#162
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Originally Posted by doug
i just want to know why if you guys buy into the theory and Jeremy said he can do it.. why are you guys not doing it... so you will back him on the forums but you won't buy into the theory on your own cars.. willing to take the risk on an argument, but not willing to take the risk on your car
FYI - I did run returnless on my stock motor for over 2 years with absolutely zero fuel related issues.
05-29-2007, 01:08 PM
#163
the thing is this, i dont care about fuel pressure as long as the fuel system isnt leaning out and stays consistent. thats all the matters.
doug, you are starting a lot of unnecessary stuff this time. i am just sharing a fact that we learned to help people out who might be on the fence about affording a FI setup for their stock block. leave it at that...
doug, you are starting a lot of unnecessary stuff this time. i am just sharing a fact that we learned to help people out who might be on the fence about affording a FI setup for their stock block. leave it at that...
05-29-2007, 01:36 PM
#164
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Originally Posted by doug
i just want to know why if you guys buy into the theory and Jeremy said he can do it.. why are you guys not doing it... so you will back him on the forums but you won't buy into the theory on your own cars.. willing to take the risk on an argument, but not willing to take the risk on your car
End of discussion.
05-29-2007, 03:19 PM
#165
Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
the thing is this, i dont care about fuel pressure as long as the fuel system isnt leaning out and stays consistent. thats all the matters.
doug, you are starting a lot of unnecessary stuff this time. i am just sharing a fact that we learned to help people out who might be on the fence about affording a FI setup for their stock block. leave it at that...
doug, you are starting a lot of unnecessary stuff this time. i am just sharing a fact that we learned to help people out who might be on the fence about affording a FI setup for their stock block. leave it at that...
i never said what you are doing isn't possible.. i just want to make sure everyone who is vocal about it is onboard with the idea
05-29-2007, 03:20 PM
#166
Originally Posted by maximumsportZ
Come on seriously you're taking one statement that Jeremy said and feeding off that. The big topic here is on a stock motor lets leave it as that now? Like many have said PF is going to test this theory with detail literature on the shop's car.
End of discussion.
End of discussion.
05-29-2007, 03:24 PM
#167
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Originally Posted by doug
it really doesn't matter if its 1 paragraph in a 50 page novel.. i quoted him so i am not making it up.. it was said.. so the question is.. will you put your money where your mouth is
Wow, you're really trying hard on this one. Great way to spin the topic because you have no basis for arguing the original point.
05-29-2007, 03:30 PM
#168
Originally Posted by taurran
Wow, you're really trying hard on this one. Great way to spin the topic because you have no basis for arguing the original point.
personally i think you guys are backing Jeremy due to friendship not because you buy into the theory.. but you are free to prove me wrong and let him try it on your built beast.
05-29-2007, 03:30 PM
#169
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Originally Posted by taurran
This just shows how little you understand the reason for a RFS, or how it effects fuel delivery.
The fuel delivery is right on, you're going to contest AFR's? Do you even know how fuel pressure effects AFRs? If the car is delivery steady fuel capable of making safe AFR's at the targeted boost level then it is in fact, NOT NEEDED.
Then again, no one ever suggested that a RFS wasn't a good idea if you wanted to ease the tuning process.
Some people here need to look up "required" and "suggested" and reevaluate their own personal meanings of these words.
The fuel delivery is right on, you're going to contest AFR's? Do you even know how fuel pressure effects AFRs? If the car is delivery steady fuel capable of making safe AFR's at the targeted boost level then it is in fact, NOT NEEDED.
Then again, no one ever suggested that a RFS wasn't a good idea if you wanted to ease the tuning process.
Some people here need to look up "required" and "suggested" and reevaluate their own personal meanings of these words.
Just because the one AF sensor on one exhaust is reading fine doesn't mean that running no fuel return is fine, that is an average of 6 cylinders on a single exhaust or dual with cross pipe and maybe worse an average of 3 cylinders on a true dual.
You cannot guarantee that each cylinder is seeing the appropriate amount of fuel without an FPR or even better with a fuel return, with an FPR you pretty much guarantee fuel pressure is even across the system and only issue will be a bad or faulty injector.
05-29-2007, 03:35 PM
#170
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Originally Posted by westpak
You are making a statement that unless you are logging AFR's at least on each bank if not each cylinder you cannot prove.
Just because the one AF sensor on one exhaust is reading fine doesn't mean that running no fuel return is fine, that is an average of 6 cylinders on a single exhaust or dual with cross pipe and maybe worse an average of 3 cylinders on a true dual.
You cannot guarantee that each cylinder is seeing the appropriate amount of fuel without an FPR or even better with a fuel return, with an FPR you pretty much guarantee fuel pressure is even across the system and only issue will be a bad or faulty injector.
Just because the one AF sensor on one exhaust is reading fine doesn't mean that running no fuel return is fine, that is an average of 6 cylinders on a single exhaust or dual with cross pipe and maybe worse an average of 3 cylinders on a true dual.
You cannot guarantee that each cylinder is seeing the appropriate amount of fuel without an FPR or even better with a fuel return, with an FPR you pretty much guarantee fuel pressure is even across the system and only issue will be a bad or faulty injector.
If what you're saying is required, then you should verify fuel pressure on each injector with the APS fuel system as it does not return from the fuel rails. Are you doing this to all the APS ST/TT cars you've installed the kit on?
05-29-2007, 03:48 PM
#171
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Originally Posted by taurran
I understand this. But, if a car is making the same "average AFR" across the entire fuel system and is not knocking, then it works.
If what you're saying is required, then you should verify fuel pressure on each injector with the APS fuel system as it does not return from the fuel rails. Are you doing this to all the APS ST/TT cars you've installed the kit on?
If what you're saying is required, then you should verify fuel pressure on each injector with the APS fuel system as it does not return from the fuel rails. Are you doing this to all the APS ST/TT cars you've installed the kit on?
05-29-2007, 04:01 PM
#172
Originally Posted by phunk
if you want to prove your point; datalog fuel pressure at 2 points, 1 being the inlet of the passenger side rail and the 2nd being at the back of the driver side rail. compare logs at increasing HP levels, and be sure to post back the results. if you can prove to me that there is no pressure drop across the rails causing uneven individual cylinder tuning then i would thank you for the time spent testing and openly admit that the RFS only GREATLY aids in properly tuning the car to run clean... I mean the 1:1 alone is so worth it, especially if your running piggyback EMS that suck at controlling larger injectors. What more could you ask for when you compare the 1:1 to a static pressure, the 1:1 will have lower pressure at idle to help you clean up the idle, and then as you get in boost it will have higher pressure to get more out of the proper size injector rather than an oversized hog.
I also side with J's point about duty cycle.
Happy medium? RFS w/larger inj's
05-29-2007, 04:08 PM
#173
its funny cause i really dont care about fuel pressure as long as it is consistent. thats all i worried about. if its consistent and i have the right injectors, well then i can tune the car perfectly.
as to westpak, i hear all the stuff you are saying about me in south florida, it really doesnt phase me though.
how many cars have "you" tuned with larger injectors and stock fuel system??
exactly..
if you have a stock block car that you would like to bring up here that you think can out perform ours, please feel free to do so....
as to westpak, i hear all the stuff you are saying about me in south florida, it really doesnt phase me though.
how many cars have "you" tuned with larger injectors and stock fuel system??
exactly..
if you have a stock block car that you would like to bring up here that you think can out perform ours, please feel free to do so....
05-29-2007, 04:10 PM
#174
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Originally Posted by westpak
Nice try to divert my comment. I was making an observation that you had a flawed theory, this was not to make arguments as to the merits of the APS kits at least they have an FPR, I know you have a hardon for APS even after your TN failed you, which by the way has no FPR.
I'd like to see how significant your claimed pressure loss is, and how it effects AFR's for each cylendar. You're telling me to go measure this when I don't have the means to. You're telling us that this will cause failure on a car that is running even or rich, and exhibits no knock. Until said car is exhibiting knock even at neutral AFR's and timing, then I'll make the safe assumption that fuel delivery is adequate.
And, give me a fukcing break about my TN kit "failing" me. I'm totally happy with the performance it has provided thus far, and you won't see me crying about my motor like other people who don't realize that stock blocks eventually go. I assure you that my motor had nothing to do with the lack of FPR or return line.
Last edited by taurran; 05-29-2007 at 04:17 PM.
05-29-2007, 04:43 PM
#175
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Originally Posted by Gman2004
There's to many big dicks on this site that think the world revolves around drag racing. I may not know as much as others about how chit works on my car, but big fuking deal. I can afford to mod my car and that's all I need. What you need to be a fuking car/tuning guru to drive a modded car now? Fuking harlious! I'll spend the extra $$ on my mods to do it right from the get go while others put together a half *** set up. My ***** are big enough that I can afford to spend the extra $$. If you ain't got no money take your broke **** home.
If you ain't got no money take your broke **** home.
05-29-2007, 07:42 PM
#178
Originally Posted by jimmyloose
so.... [on topic] if I run a vortech kit with ~550cc injectors, a walbro and a utec setup, I'll be able to run safely at 340-350whp? [/on topic]
.....*****
.....*****
380-400whp.
05-29-2007, 08:49 PM
#179
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ok so i've been missing out on this thread all day because i was working..i will back what jeremy is saying about return fuel systems 100% and not because im his tech but because i am running without one right now with close 14psi in 5th gear under full load. Prior to working for jeremy i had a tn kit and the ONLY thing keeping me from the install was the return fuel system and well some stolen parts, but i didnt want to do the install because of all the talk saying its not safe to run without one. We HAVE proven it is safe to run without one. My car is my personal, daily driver and my only vehicle and i trust it 100% because of the tune it has and by no means is it on the safe side. When my motor goes it will not be due to no return fuel system. Maybe to some people 1000$ isnt much but to some it could be the make it or break it. To continue to prove jeremy's theory i will not be running a return fuel system when i build my motor to see how it reacts to higher boost levels (I AM NOT SAYING THAT I WONT NEED ONE) but im going to try. All we are saying is that if you want a good stock motor f/i build a return fuel system is not needed.
Last everyone cares too much about dyno sheets who cares about how much power it makes its all about how well it drives. If my car made 600+hp and ran 11.5 i would not be happy, so when my car is slow what do i do show someone a piece of paper and say well it made 600+hp on the dyno, or when im not happy because my car is kinda quick do i go home and look at that dyno sheet to make everything better. My car is fast all the time not just when its on the dyno, its fast at the track and on the street, and thats what our customers get FAST CARS!
Last everyone cares too much about dyno sheets who cares about how much power it makes its all about how well it drives. If my car made 600+hp and ran 11.5 i would not be happy, so when my car is slow what do i do show someone a piece of paper and say well it made 600+hp on the dyno, or when im not happy because my car is kinda quick do i go home and look at that dyno sheet to make everything better. My car is fast all the time not just when its on the dyno, its fast at the track and on the street, and thats what our customers get FAST CARS!