Injected Performance bringing in the first four digit dyno number: 1016rwhp DD
07-25-2007, 09:49 AM
#202
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
I think we can move past it. I know that IP is not really active on these forums.
That being said, I would not want anyone to be mislead by a given setup. IP has the full right not to post their full dyno, and perhaps they are still planning to. Yes, 1000whp is an achievement, but just like anything else, evaluation of true mastery of a setup must involve scrutiny, that's where I come from. And that involves the flow analysis and power/torque production over the entire RPM range. Vendors are here to make money on us, simple as that. The least we MUST do is scrutinize everything they say so that we can truly separate the VRT-type projects from truely incredible projects. Let's not make it easy on vendors to fool us, ok? That's where I am coming from. BTW, I was callign out VRT wayyyy before (months....) they were really exposed for not only their business practices but their technical incompetence... and I was right all along about them.
Let's just get on with our lives.
P.S. This was just a general example and the VRT-type comment does NOT in any way apply here to IP, does NOT!
That being said, I would not want anyone to be mislead by a given setup. IP has the full right not to post their full dyno, and perhaps they are still planning to. Yes, 1000whp is an achievement, but just like anything else, evaluation of true mastery of a setup must involve scrutiny, that's where I come from. And that involves the flow analysis and power/torque production over the entire RPM range. Vendors are here to make money on us, simple as that. The least we MUST do is scrutinize everything they say so that we can truly separate the VRT-type projects from truely incredible projects. Let's not make it easy on vendors to fool us, ok? That's where I am coming from. BTW, I was callign out VRT wayyyy before (months....) they were really exposed for not only their business practices but their technical incompetence... and I was right all along about them.
Let's just get on with our lives.
P.S. This was just a general example and the VRT-type comment does NOT in any way apply here to IP, does NOT!
agreed...it would be nice if everybody got scrutinized the same way though.
and good you pointed that you were not comparing vrt to injected... that really is quit an insult
07-25-2007, 10:07 AM
#203
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Having built a few 1000 horsepower cars in the past, the one thng I see that could be a reason for the power fall-off in the upper rpms is the upper intake manifold bottleneck. Greg used a big Throttlebody but if you look past the TB is reduces down to what appears to be 75mm OD which would roughly be about 68-72mm ID(depending on the thickness of aluminum). Once you have a restiction on airflow, power and efficiency will fall off. You can keep turning up the boost and you will make more peak power but the power at higher rpms will still drop-off. On the Supras we will typically run a 90mm-105mm TB and with the right turbo, they keep making power to redline.If you look at any car that makes a 1000WHP,they will typically use an 80mm TB at a minimum.
Oh and outstanding job, Greg and the guys at Injected!
Oh and outstanding job, Greg and the guys at Injected!
07-25-2007, 10:41 AM
#205
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
so the upper..not the lower collector?
The lower collector is bigger then the 2JZ so I dont think it is the problem since there are guys making 1500WHP.
07-25-2007, 10:43 AM
#207
Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
its excellent you know of all this... just don't discount work by people who have been working on this for years...
Skilled technicians (with years of experience) should not discount the insight and analysis of even green Engineers or Scientists either.
Turbos (and other complex devices) would not exist without Engineers and Scientist to invent them.
I really appreciate what Gurgen is posting here and I wish there were many more like him. Its not just bolting on a part and dynoing it to see what works, Gurgen's analysis is a logical/mathematical approach for converging on an optimum.
I place a high value on that.
Scientific analysis can do in minutes what may take "trial and error" many years (if ever).
EDIT: This was a late reply. Not meant to reiterate water under the bridge.
Last edited by Hydrazine; 07-25-2007 at 11:04 AM.
07-25-2007, 11:31 AM
#208
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
so the "neck" of the plenum then need to be = to size of the bigger TB???
same body needs to start making custom plenums like this with teh TB lol
same body needs to start making custom plenums like this with teh TB lol
That is the deal. If you have a big TB and the piping behind it is smaller,then you are essentially reducing the size of your TB.It is about volume and pressure.Blow through a coffee straw, it requires more pressure and moves less volume then if you blow through a conventional soda straw.The same applies for turbocharging or anything that has to do with air,water or electricity.I can get all technical like Gurgen but there are alot of people that dont comprehend the technical mumbo jumbo so I like to be really basic and simple with my explanations this way everyone can understand it
07-25-2007, 11:36 AM
#209
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Originally Posted by TurboTim
That is the deal. If you have a big TB and the piping behind it is smaller,then you are essentially reducing the size of your TB.It is about volume and pressure.Blow through a coffee straw, it requires more pressure and moves less volume then if you blow through a conventional soda straw.The same applies for turbocharging or anything that has to do with air,water or electricity.I can get all technical like Gurgen but there are alot of people that dont comprehend the technical mumbo jumbo so I like to be really basic and simple with my explanations this way everyone can understand it
it was good as it was in the first place, i have already been looking into this already... hoping someone out there makes it
07-25-2007, 12:35 PM
#210
I am not here to debate any of this, but have a few comments. Multiple theories have been presented (some good, some not so good) and to each their own. There is still a great deal more power (both peak hp and area under the curve) left in the setup. Our intake setup is definitely a bottleneck which we have plans to fix in the future. Also something not considered is timing: NO ignition advance is being added back after peak torque as of now. For RPM reference, we are still making 970whp @ 7000rpm.
Keep in mind this is a big-turbo unlocked-auto setup - which can be challenging to dyno. Stalls are a function of torque, so as boost and rpm climb and torque is increasing, it stalls higher and higher which can give some goofy looking dyno plots. Our GT47 Supra and 9 second Lexus both look like supercharged setups on the dyno, but when run on the street/track they stall to the point of peak tractive effort and plant massive power all the way through the pull. After Friday when our Z put up 1016whp and over 65 pulls on the dyno we had to get back to work on other projects and customers.
We will be putting the Z back on the dyno before long to continue tuning for more power, but first a few loose ends must be addressed (such as needing a new driveshaft loop to accommodate the massive ds) so we can make a few shakedown passes at the track.
Keep in mind this is a big-turbo unlocked-auto setup - which can be challenging to dyno. Stalls are a function of torque, so as boost and rpm climb and torque is increasing, it stalls higher and higher which can give some goofy looking dyno plots. Our GT47 Supra and 9 second Lexus both look like supercharged setups on the dyno, but when run on the street/track they stall to the point of peak tractive effort and plant massive power all the way through the pull. After Friday when our Z put up 1016whp and over 65 pulls on the dyno we had to get back to work on other projects and customers.
We will be putting the Z back on the dyno before long to continue tuning for more power, but first a few loose ends must be addressed (such as needing a new driveshaft loop to accommodate the massive ds) so we can make a few shakedown passes at the track.
07-25-2007, 12:39 PM
#211
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Originally Posted by Hal@IP
I am not here to debate any of this, but have a few comments. Multiple theories have been presented (some good, some not so good) and to each their own. There is still a great deal more power (both peak hp and area under the curve) left in the setup. Our intake setup is definitely a bottleneck which we have plans to fix in the future. Also something not considered is timing: NO ignition advance is being added back after peak torque as of now. For RPM reference, we are still making 970whp @ 7000rpm.
Keep in mind this is a big-turbo unlocked-auto setup - which can be challenging to dyno. Stalls are a function of torque, so as boost and rpm climb and torque is increasing, it stalls higher and higher which can give some goofy looking dyno plots. Our GT47 Supra and 9 second Lexus both look like supercharged setups on the dyno, but when run on the street/track they stall to the point of peak tractive effort and plant massive power all the way through the pull. After Friday when our Z put up 1016whp and over 65 pulls on the dyno we had to get back to work on other projects and customers.
We will be putting the Z back on the dyno before long to continue tuning for more power, but first a few loose ends must be addressed (such as needing a new driveshaft loop to accommodate the massive ds) so we can make a few shakedown passes at the track.
Keep in mind this is a big-turbo unlocked-auto setup - which can be challenging to dyno. Stalls are a function of torque, so as boost and rpm climb and torque is increasing, it stalls higher and higher which can give some goofy looking dyno plots. Our GT47 Supra and 9 second Lexus both look like supercharged setups on the dyno, but when run on the street/track they stall to the point of peak tractive effort and plant massive power all the way through the pull. After Friday when our Z put up 1016whp and over 65 pulls on the dyno we had to get back to work on other projects and customers.
We will be putting the Z back on the dyno before long to continue tuning for more power, but first a few loose ends must be addressed (such as needing a new driveshaft loop to accommodate the massive ds) so we can make a few shakedown passes at the track.
thanks for the update
keep us updated (pics/videos/etc/etc) =]
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 07-25-2007 at 01:00 PM.
07-25-2007, 01:42 PM
#212
Originally Posted by Hal@IP
I am not here to debate any of this, but have a few comments. Multiple theories have been presented (some good, some not so good) and to each their own. There is still a great deal more power (both peak hp and area under the curve) left in the setup. Our intake setup is definitely a bottleneck which we have plans to fix in the future. Also something not considered is timing: NO ignition advance is being added back after peak torque as of now. For RPM reference, we are still making 970whp @ 7000rpm.
Keep in mind this is a big-turbo unlocked-auto setup - which can be challenging to dyno. Stalls are a function of torque, so as boost and rpm climb and torque is increasing, it stalls higher and higher which can give some goofy looking dyno plots. Our GT47 Supra and 9 second Lexus both look like supercharged setups on the dyno, but when run on the street/track they stall to the point of peak tractive effort and plant massive power all the way through the pull. After Friday when our Z put up 1016whp and over 65 pulls on the dyno we had to get back to work on other projects and customers.
We will be putting the Z back on the dyno before long to continue tuning for more power, but first a few loose ends must be addressed (such as needing a new driveshaft loop to accommodate the massive ds) so we can make a few shakedown passes at the track.
Keep in mind this is a big-turbo unlocked-auto setup - which can be challenging to dyno. Stalls are a function of torque, so as boost and rpm climb and torque is increasing, it stalls higher and higher which can give some goofy looking dyno plots. Our GT47 Supra and 9 second Lexus both look like supercharged setups on the dyno, but when run on the street/track they stall to the point of peak tractive effort and plant massive power all the way through the pull. After Friday when our Z put up 1016whp and over 65 pulls on the dyno we had to get back to work on other projects and customers.
We will be putting the Z back on the dyno before long to continue tuning for more power, but first a few loose ends must be addressed (such as needing a new driveshaft loop to accommodate the massive ds) so we can make a few shakedown passes at the track.
can we get a picture with the RPM on the dyno chart?
07-25-2007, 02:18 PM
#214
Originally Posted by doug
ok since i can't get an RPM answer.. based on hal's statement of 970whp @ 7000 rpms.. here is an estimated RPM plot
07-25-2007, 02:22 PM
#216
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interesting =]
thanks doug
630whp at 833 rpms?? "scale" must not be right...
hummm not fully conclusive...
lets wait for injected to post the actual rpm plot for now
thanks doug anyways hopefully they post the actual dyno sheet soon
thanks doug
630whp at 833 rpms?? "scale" must not be right...
hummm not fully conclusive...
lets wait for injected to post the actual rpm plot for now
thanks doug anyways
hopefully they post the actual dyno sheet soon
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 07-25-2007 at 02:27 PM.
07-25-2007, 03:06 PM
#218
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
No way in hell that RPM is even close...sorry
I'd estimate that that boost is really built at aroun 5000 rpm, no earlier
I'd estimate that that boost is really built at aroun 5000 rpm, no earlier
yah i think doug was just making a point about seeing no chart
07-25-2007, 04:06 PM
#220
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I apologize for not getting back to everyone's emails, pms, and phone calls more quickly. I am out of town this week with limited internet access. I know Marty, Hal, and everyone at Injected are trying to answer questions as quicky as they can.
Again I apologize for not responding to everyone's questions as quickly as possible.
Greg
Injected Performance
Again I apologize for not responding to everyone's questions as quickly as possible.
Greg
Injected Performance