SpoilsofWar

iTrader: (39)

Okay, so what part of this post disproves my assumption that I can get 450rwhp out of the TN kit? The fact that you made more power then that? I dont recall mentioning anything about where that power would be in the powerband.

Of course, all things being equal, a TT kit would have been a better choice to get to my power goals. And if I had been buying a kit new then I would have went that route due to the negligible price difference between the TT and ST kits. But I got a good deal on a lightly used TN kit with a brand new turbo in the marketplace which ended up costing me about 60% of a new greddy kit. Used TT kits are few and far between because there isnt really anything to step up to after that. And I'm not sure how comfortable I would be buying a kit with used turbos anyway. Fair enough?

taurran

iTrader: (18)

Not to start an argument. But I still want to see the practicality of making those numbers on a normal basis. By this I mean that I want to see third party results on the kit running *pump gas*.

Sure, I say wait, but wait for some real world numbers and not in-house shop figures. (we all know how those tend to be)

I'm also not sure of the powerband they posted. I know they say it's because of variable cam timing or whatever, but it still is only about 1000rpms of the claimed power. If my car lags that much (which it doesn't appear to), I'll be swapping out for a smaller turbo.

Zivman

iTrader: (19)

even with a 40% savings, I still wouldn't run that setup. When you are talking a built motor and all the BS that goes along with it, ~$2500 or so is nothing when you consider all you are getting

SpoilsofWar

iTrader: (39)

Cool, since $2500 is no big deal to you, I will switch to Greddy twins as soon as you paypal me the difference. justin.morlock@us.army.mil

Until then, I guess I'll be the only guy stupid enough to be running a TN kit on a built block

Zivman

iTrader: (19)

Nice joke.... ..........

seriously though, in the skeem of things the money you saved is meaningless when you consider what you are giving up... which IMHO is basically the entire motivation for building your motor. I think you are in for a dissappointment when your build is done

SpoilsofWar

iTrader: (39)

Sooo, I should just toss the TN kit on my 60k+ mile stock '03 block and boost north of 10psi and wait for the fireworks? Thanks, for the advice, but I think building it is the right way to go, especially since I already have all the parts. Durability is the motivation, no one ever grenaded an engine from overbuilding. 450whp is just as good as 550whp or better, when you're not that good of a driver (ME). I lol at how everyone thinks they need absurd amounts of power when the majority of said people would have zero idea of how to apply that power on the track.

Crom

iTrader: (47)

t-netics are more easily replacable than aps...I'm having my aps twins being rebuilt now due to smoking...waiting is not fun.

JETPILOT

iTrader: (51)

Turbonetics + 15psi =

Zivman

iTrader: (19)

what is your reason for building the motor? Is your current stock one blown, or just at 60K miles?

really all you will be doing is getting a motor more boost friendly, but doing it with the turbo kit that has basically no potential. you will be doing a dropped compression motor I would assume? probably 8.5 or 9:1? At that point, you need more boost to make equal power vs a stock compression motor. I think it is fair to say that that TN kit becomes increasingly more useless as the boost increases. Now, you need more boost to get to your goal, you have dropped compression so your low end (out of boost) power has dropped... so now, you are paying anywhere from 3K-8K bucks for a motor, depending on the compenents of your build, to use in conjunction with a kit that is proven to be a POS on anything other than a stock motor. Now, at a higher boost pressure making higher peak HP(assuming you even hit 450), your curve will most likely suck making the car less fun than it was on your stock motor at less boost and a lower peak HP.

Blu_Blur

iTrader: (1)

Sorry. I missed the part where you said built-block. I coulda SWORN it said stock block.

SpoilsofWar

iTrader: (39)

I'm using Arias, 8.6:1 cr pistons. And the reason for building the block is my post you quoted - Durability.

I think most of your post is probably technically correct but that you're taking the example to its most extreme. Call me naive, but I'm not buying that the car will be less enjoyable to drive when its done then it does now. In any event it is what it is, the parts have been purchased and the build must go on, and if you end up convincing me I will send you a case of oil, your choice of brand.

I'll be back with some dyno sheets when its done later this winter, and we can critique from there.

Zivman

iTrader: (19)

Probably the most accurate and truthful statement in this thread....

Fair enough.... all things aside, good luck getting the motor together

TENGAI

iTrader: (5)

I completely agree... My full intent is to see what it'll do on pump (93 octane) gas, Dyno Dynamics. I'll be installing the "out of the box" setup / EMS tune and seeing what it's got. Then it's off to a full stand-alone and tuning session to see what the results yield.

I'm as much of a skeptic as any on these boards, but like you, have some reservations with certain products. I like what I see with PL and was graced with preliminary information as the kit was being developed. Needless to say, I like it...

I also like what you're doing and am still looking forward to the final results. I know you've been working through things methodically, and I'm sure you'll break into some nasty power levels once you guys nail down all of the issues. But all of this is really a topic for another thread (or two ).

BACK ON TOPIC - I like the APS for an out of the box mid to low 400whp / stock block ST. The TN kit is also a very nice kit, but as it's already been discussed, BOTH kits have some things that need to be considered when thinking about making more power down the road. I personally think that the APS has more headroom, but I don't have any PERSONAL experience with the product. If the OP is looking for BIG ST power down the road, then I'd consider waiting a few months for soon-to-be-released results:

1. APS ST / built motor build coming out of the Mid-A
2. taurran's custom TN-based ST
3. PowerLab kit release

As always, just my , 3 dimes, and a quarter

Le Zed

F*CKING AWESOME!!!! LOL!!!!!

synth19

iTrader: (11)

My car is scheduled to go into GRD in early December for a new motor. Unfortunatly after the motor is installed, the car won't be able to be broken-in until the spring. THEN, new tune & 500whp goal.

Driven1

iTrader: (2)

In due time. The time is coming VERY soon. Waiting on the proper upgraded bearing sizes (should've come in earlier this week) and everything is prepped and waiting for the delivery. Im starting to get excited. Im sure we'll run into an issue or two but thats not to be unexpected.

Synth, I may have a few questions for you and maybe we can share some info? My goals are similar to yours in the end, so Ill be PM'ing you within the next few weeks as things come together.

TENGAI

iTrader: (5)

LOL... Well, I wasn't trying to let the cat out of the bag, but f'k it I'm sure it's going to make a little stir when it's finished man. Keep us posted.

synth19

iTrader: (11)

NP man, as you can see in my sig.. that's the most power I was able to get out of the ST kit, the tq though is SICK. My tuner was getting some weird misfiring on heavy load so he didn't want to bump the boost (it's at 12psi). The tuner had my car for a couple of weeks and could not resolve the issue or figure out what exactly was causing the misfiring. They recommended a new motor (under warranty) when I had time to bring it in.....So I've been driving the car since the initial diagnosis (happened back in March/April). It drives fine, but the underlying issue is still there. I didn't want the downtime in the summer and because of other delays, I couldn't get this project done. I should dropping off the car next month once the new warrantied motor arrives. The thing that sucks is I'll have to wait until spring to properly break in the motor before the next tune and hopefully get to the 500whp club.

Chasecbc

iTrader: (2)

Im going ST soon and i havent decided between the kits yet, can some one tell me the differnce in spool time. APS website says full boost by 2.5k and TN is 3.5k?? i will be on stock block so im not going above 400whp but i def want a fast spool and the power to come on quick so APs is the way to go?

taurran

iTrader: (18)

From what I've seen the TT kit doesn't even make full boost by 2.5k, so I'd pretty much disregard whatever you read there. From what I've seen the APS kit reaches full boost no sooner than 3000-3200 rpms, which I believe is controlled by the Unichip. My own Turbonetics setup made full boost at about 3200 rpms with my EBC, which is perfect IMO.

You don't want boost TOO soon or you will spin tires all day long. A little lag is a good thing in my opinion. Making full boost at 3000-4000 rpms is great because you never really fall below that mark while actually racing. You'd see if you ever rode in a TN ST or Greddy TT. The boost response in both is pretty much instant when hitting the throttle in the proper gear from a roll.