Zivman

iTrader: (19)

Spoke with a couple engine builders and mechanics and basically came to the conclusion it was too much boost. I was advised it was overboost detonation that caused this... not the conventional type of detonation that we refer to that blow apart/melt the tops of the pistons and bend rods. Basically it was described to me as a condition where the pressure builds in the cylinder walls to a point that it creeps down into the ringlands of the pistons and puts pressure on them. This causes the rings to expand outward and eventually up or down... in my case, you see the ringlands blown out downword; which seems to be the way of least resistance. This was on about 17-18 psi of boost. Timing was within reason and AFRs didn't go beyond 11.1.

FYI: this was a standard Arias piston at 8.8:1 CR

Edit:
actually one builder in specific had a couple pistons from various applications that looked identical to what you see in the picture

ni$mo350

iTrader: (4)

Good call... didn't even think about removal and reinstalling the turbo kit... guess it's going to be awhile before I run boost!!!! anyone build the block then run boost? Subscribing to see how much the budget build comes out to be... G/L

jining

iTrader: (7)

So....020 overbore is for sure,I'm thinking either Wiseco 8.8 pistons or cp 8.5. How do you feel about either of those? Or do you have another recommendation.

Ziv, previosly you mentioned that buying a short block and having it installed would require removal of the turbos etc. In my case, the turbos need to be removed as well don't they? I suppose the cams and accessories could stay in. Labor wise, which is more hours($), having a complete shortblock swapped in or building my existing block? Thanks for the help.

ni$mo350

iTrader: (4)

I'm assuming it would be the latter because that is basically building a shortblock as opposed to having it pre built then installing it.. Please correct me if I'm wrong... just makes sense that pre built would have less labor

Zivman

iTrader: (19)

Definitely want to do a .020 overbore on you block to ensure a clean round hole that has proper clearances. I would look at running .004 to .0055 cylinder to wall clearance depending on which type of piston you do choose.

Technically I think you might be able to leave the manifolds/turbos connected to the heads on your rebuild if you plan on keeping the stock cams and no machine work is needed on the heads, but you most likely will be removing the manifolds with the turbos still attached to them.

Just based on my experience I would encourage you to spend the money on a set of FI cams and springs and shims. Regardless, you want to have your heads checked for straightness to ensure a proper mating surface to the block. If any machine work is required, you might as well have them put in new oem valve stem seals that are included in the OEM gasket rebuild kit. The heads should be taken apart to be cleaned anyways if any machine work is done. If the heads are apart, the labor to install the cams shouldn't be anymore than installing the oem setup back in.

your accessories will have to be swapped from motor to motor, which isn't too much of a hassle, but still needs to be done. You will have to mess with a grip of wires, fuel rails/injectors, heater/coolant hoses, and an array of sensors and plugs with the swap.

In terms of which would be cheaper long block vs short block... well, I cannot say. You will be paying for the same labor, just a matter of at what rate and who you will pay. In my case, I had a mechanic that could do everything. I wanted to ensure the lower end was balanced, blue printed, and assembled by the machine shop so I payed them the labor to do that. They had a problem finishing the full long block assembly.. basically didn't have the time among other things... so I had my mechanic do it. I originally had planned on having the engine shop do the full assembly and my mechanic just install it back into the car, but as I stated, it didn't work out that way.

IMHO, the two biggest concerns on these motors are keeping the heads on, and proper bearing clearances, both of which are assembly/machine work related. Now days, we have a good understanding of what should go into a build and have addressed those areas with quality components (ie L19 head studs, HKS stopper style head gaskets, ED pistons, etc). My fear on my new build was throwing a bearing; as we have seen from more than one member in the FI section on recent builds, and eliminating head lift... both of which I think I addressed properly.

I would encourage you to have a single party do as much work as possible.. that way you eliminate the "too many chefs in the kitchen" syndrome. This would mean I would encourage you to get a fully assembled long block from a single party vs a short block and having a 3rd party finish the assembly. I feel very fortunate my build turned out successfully considering some of the issues I had with the parties involved. That said, as long as you include parties that know what they are doing, rather than 'think' they know what they are doing, you should be OK

Whatever you choose, make sure you have every spec/clearance blue printed. It could be critical if you come across issues down the road. I was very detail oriented about what went on with my build... bought all new timing/cam chains, water pump, oil pump, brand new crank shaft, didn't run a .040 overbore (spent the money to get a new core), rented a tq plate for my machine shop, discussed in detail the specifics about bearing sizing and head stud tq along with proper techiniques about sealing the heads to the motor.

jining

iTrader: (7)

edit: sorry I didnt see your previous view on wiseco (blackberry = hard to read forums)

A few more questions for you guys: (sorry I ask so many)

Most importantly, what kind of power would this setup support (others with similar builds please chime in)? Can I just leave my heads untouched? I realize cams would be a good idea but the hp vs $$ amount is not worth it at the moment. Valve springs are ok or is it recommended to upgrade? Any idea of the stock valvespring seat pressure?

Just out of curiousity, any reason why it would say 2004 and up on the wiseco site? :0/ (mines an 03)
http://www.wiseco.com/PDFs/Catalogs/...ruToyotaVW.pdf

Is there much disadvantage/advantage from 8.5:1 vs 9:1? Seems that the CP/Mahle/JE pistons are all 8.5:1, the wisecos 8:8 and the Arias ED 9:1.

As for the bearings, my tuner suggests ACL bearings, as they are OEM for cosworth, in a Standard clearance as opposed to the +.001"
Your thoughts?

Many thanks,
Aaron

Zivman

iTrader: (19)

I would go with a knowledgable engine builder's advise vs a tuner's when it comes to specs on building a motor. Figure out who is going to do the build and work from there on specs. Keep in mind specs are only as good as the machine work that is being done. I have heard reasons for both sides of the argument in terms of adding an additional thou clearance on bearings... I tend to agree more with side of staying closer to oem clearance, but I am neither an engine builder nor tuner . Don't get too caught up in bearing brands because all will be good. I have seen plenty of guys swear by XXX brand vs YYY brand without any meaningful reason. Heck, a lot of guys run OEM

jining

iTrader: (7)

I'm sorry my original post was a little unclear. I currently am making 400rwhp on my stock block, so hopefully this build will allow for a bit more power. What do you think my motor should be able to handle after this is complete?

Zivman

iTrader: (19)

How much should the rods and pistons be able to take??
The rods should be fine to upwards of 700-800 whp before I would have concern about them, but the pistons.... if you go with the wisecos, I wouldn't go beyond 14, maybe 15 psi, so whatever HP that would equate to. Without cams, that would be low 500's whp. If you did cams, you could get to mid 500's at around 15 psi, and that would be the hardest I would push them. If you went with the ED pistons, you could push them to near 20 psi without concern. Keep in mind with the APS kit, the sweet spot for the turbos is 15-18 psi IMHO.

For reference, I am pushing just over 15 psi on my most resent build - like 15.2 psi - and I am making 550 on GRD's dyno. Previously I don't think I quite made 500, or maybe I did, on about 14-14.5 psi without cams

QuadCam

iTrader: (8)

Aaron,

the stock valve spring seat pressure on your car is 37-42 pounds on the seat (installed height of 37mm).

At stock valve max lift, you are looking at 84-95 pounds for your springs. I am not sure about the 287 motor valve springs, but the revup uses a variable rate spring. I think your motor does to.

jining

iTrader: (7)

Thanks yet again guys for the info.I'm still in the process of where to get my work done at, I'll keep you posted on any updates!

jining

iTrader: (7)

Sorry to keep asking questions but I cant seem to find the OEM headgasket thickness. Im trying to see how much the HKS differs, and if it could post a problem being too thick?

Thanks in advance.

QuadCam

iTrader: (8)

I think the HKS is the same as stock....it might be a bit thinner now that I think about it.

weelman1

iTrader: (4)

I wanted to know the same thing.
I measured the hks in over 4 different places.The measurements were the same as oem(.6mm) or .1mm thicker
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=545619
Tested by your very own...
http://www.cj-motorsports.com/headgaskets1.htm
The Hks hg if anything lowers the CR by a smigin
I am leaving it up to my machinest to give me the final CR for my build.
(thats what he gets paid for)lol