A bad situation turns good, Apology to Dave @ FT and a friendship saved
08-18-2008, 09:51 AM
#102
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by XKR
Great post 
Totally agree.
Totally agree.
Originally Posted by JETPILOT
"It's America we own what we create" Got to love this statement. A tune is not intellectual property. If you pay someone to create a computer network for you then you the purchaser own the intellectual rights to that network and it's software. The fact that you payed an individual to create that network does not give that vendor exclusive right to have access to that network. If you choose to have someone else work on your network then you have that right. The IT person cannot hold you and your netowrk hostage. That would be extortion and that's not America.
I work for a big law firm in NY and I handle their Servers in the back end. I totally agree with this. Let's compare a Router and an EMS, a Router is a box that has its own code that came from the manufacturer (an OS) and so do an EMS. We are not asking for the code of the EMS or the Router so we are not violating anything here. Now since I'm not a CCIE certified (I only have a CCNA) so we hire a consultant to configure our Router since they have more experience with it. Once the consultant is done he hand the control back to us since their job is over. There is no way they control the rights to our box just because they configured our box. In this case we are not a Tuner and we don't have all the experience so we hire a Tuner to help us configure our EMS. Just because they configure it doesn't mean they own it.
A Tuner is just like a consultant since all they really do is configure your box. The box/EMS already has all the functions and features, all the tuner needed to do is configure it to work base on the customers needs.
08-18-2008, 10:49 AM
#104
Originally Posted by athenG
There is no way they control the rights to our box just because they configured our box. In this case we are not a Tuner and we don't have all the experience so we hire a Tuner to help us configure our EMS. Just because they configure it doesn't mean they own it.
A Tuner is just like a consultant since all they really do is configure your box. The box/EMS already has all the functions and features, all the tuner needed to do is configure it to work base on the customers needs.
A Tuner is just like a consultant since all they really do is configure your box. The box/EMS already has all the functions and features, all the tuner needed to do is configure it to work base on the customers needs.
Absolutely... I'm an IT Project Manager for a major communications company. When we send out RFPs to third party vendors (for what we don't do in-house) to build or enhance our backend systems or functionality, they don't own the code enhancements or configuration changes. We do. When they complete the enhancements or configuration changes, they leave, and we manage the code and environment from there.
An EMS is basically the same concept. A Tuner makes a few config changes to the parameters (Ie. Tune), but the tuner doesn't own the car, the hardware, or the config changes to that hardware/sofware/firmware (Ie. Tune), the owner of the vehicle is the rightful owner of the tune driving his/her car.
Last edited by gothchick; 08-18-2008 at 10:59 AM.
08-18-2008, 10:52 AM
#106
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Texas, Arizona,Cayman Island
Posts: 5,256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by JETPILOT
There are always many ways to look at this.
Tuners know the tune will need manipultation on a UTEC if they are going to tune a car in the winter and then drive it in hot summer temps in open loop boost control mode. The boost won't be stable. In this situation the car will underboost. If the car is tuned in the summer and then driven on a cold winter day the car will overboost. You are sending a value to the BCS that does not take into account manifold air pressure. That can't work. If you live in FL and brought your car to Atlanta to have tuned what are you supposed to do when it needs adjustment. Pay another $600 to get a new tune? I'm not talking about changing timing or fuel, just the boost. In my case I changed it to closed loop boost control that does look at manifold air pressure and get's boost pressure feedback and adjusts.
I think everyone needs access to the UTEC to make adjustments if needed eithe made by them or qnother qualified individual. if an issue should arise the original tuner can compare the tune on the UTEC to the tune in his file.
Tuners know the tune will need manipultation on a UTEC if they are going to tune a car in the winter and then drive it in hot summer temps in open loop boost control mode. The boost won't be stable. In this situation the car will underboost. If the car is tuned in the summer and then driven on a cold winter day the car will overboost. You are sending a value to the BCS that does not take into account manifold air pressure. That can't work. If you live in FL and brought your car to Atlanta to have tuned what are you supposed to do when it needs adjustment. Pay another $600 to get a new tune? I'm not talking about changing timing or fuel, just the boost. In my case I changed it to closed loop boost control that does look at manifold air pressure and get's boost pressure feedback and adjusts.
I think everyone needs access to the UTEC to make adjustments if needed eithe made by them or qnother qualified individual. if an issue should arise the original tuner can compare the tune on the UTEC to the tune in his file.
Utec is a different story. But far as EMS ie Fcon....the tuner has the right to protect his invested time and lock it.
08-18-2008, 11:01 AM
#107
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Texas, Arizona,Cayman Island
Posts: 5,256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by athenG
His analogy dont make any since..
I work for a big law firm in NY and I handle their Servers in the back end. I totally agree with this. Let's compare a Router and an EMS, a Router is a box that has its own code that came from the manufacturer (an OS) and so do an EMS. We are not asking for the code of the EMS or the Router so we are not violating anything here. Now since I'm not a CCIE certified (I only have a CCNA) so we hire a consultant to configure our Router since they have more experience with it. Once the consultant is done he hand the control back to us since their job is over. There is no way they control the rights to our box just because they configured our box. In this case we are not a Tuner and we don't have all the experience so we hire a Tuner to help us configure our EMS. Just because they configure it doesn't mean they own it.
A Tuner is just like a consultant since all they really do is configure your box. The box/EMS already has all the functions and features, all the tuner needed to do is configure it to work base on the customers needs.
I work for a big law firm in NY and I handle their Servers in the back end. I totally agree with this. Let's compare a Router and an EMS, a Router is a box that has its own code that came from the manufacturer (an OS) and so do an EMS. We are not asking for the code of the EMS or the Router so we are not violating anything here. Now since I'm not a CCIE certified (I only have a CCNA) so we hire a consultant to configure our Router since they have more experience with it. Once the consultant is done he hand the control back to us since their job is over. There is no way they control the rights to our box just because they configured our box. In this case we are not a Tuner and we don't have all the experience so we hire a Tuner to help us configure our EMS. Just because they configure it doesn't mean they own it.
A Tuner is just like a consultant since all they really do is configure your box. The box/EMS already has all the functions and features, all the tuner needed to do is configure it to work base on the customers needs.
What about companies like HKS that tells companies like GTM, FP and PF that they BETTER follow the rules and lock this devise before turning it over to the customer or else? I repeat...I am not including the Utec in this... there are valid points why this piggyback should not be locked....but no valid points for why the Fcon should be unlocked. Everyone know this about the Fcon...so if you want an unlocked EMS...everyone knows that the better choice would be the Haltech to start.....
08-18-2008, 11:04 AM
#108
Originally Posted by XKR
Utec is a different story. But far as EMS ie Fcon....the tuner has the right to protect his invested time and lock it.
08-18-2008, 11:22 AM
#109
Registered User
iTrader: (18)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Piscataway, NJ
Posts: 2,148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't get it, each tune it set up differently. What is right on Jet or Doug's car is not right for mine. If you want to run the risk of their tune in your car, by all means, go ahead...no two engines are the same.
I don't think your car should be held hostage by the shop, but i'm not one to take responsibility for the tuning, so I doubt it would be an issue for me...I have no clue if mine is locked or not. I'd rather have it locked to eliminate tune responsibility in the event of a tunign issue.
It's your EMS and you should have access to the info on it. People cover songs all the time in bars and no one is drug off to court (a rough analogy, i know it's not apples to apples). intellectual property. If you want it to be your idea and yours only, copywrite it.
I don't think your car should be held hostage by the shop, but i'm not one to take responsibility for the tuning, so I doubt it would be an issue for me...I have no clue if mine is locked or not. I'd rather have it locked to eliminate tune responsibility in the event of a tunign issue.
It's your EMS and you should have access to the info on it. People cover songs all the time in bars and no one is drug off to court (a rough analogy, i know it's not apples to apples). intellectual property. If you want it to be your idea and yours only, copywrite it.
08-18-2008, 11:36 AM
#110
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by XKR
What about companies like HKS that tells companies like GTM, FP and PF that they BETTER follow the rules and lock this devise before turning it over to the customer or else? I repeat...I am not including the Utec in this... there are valid points why this piggyback should not be locked....but no valid points for why the Fcon should be unlocked. Everyone know this about the Fcon...so if you want an unlocked EMS...everyone knows that the better choice would be the Haltech to start.....
A full standalone is more advance than the piggy back so you don't really need to go back there once it is tuned rite. A Standalone can adapt to minor changes so there are not much to tweak as long as the tune was done right. I guess locking it is an option so that noobs won't damage or manipulate all the parameters and tune that the tuner has worked hard on. But if the customer is knowledgeable then they should have an option to have it unlock no questions asked!!! HKS is locked not by the Tuner but it is the manufacturers who is implementing that, but that is because they (HKS) ACTUALLY own the code so they have the right to do so.
My argument is that some people here make it look like that the tune is proprietary that the Tuner own or need to protect with their life. The Tuner mainly just configured the EMS, all the features or code was written by the EMS manufacturer and not the tuner. It's like my firm asking me to setup their Wireless network. I did setup our Wireless Network Firm wide (10 offices around the world), but I don't own the codes or OS of the Wireless Hardware. In my case Aruba Networks control that and I merely configured the Hardware setting base on what the firm needs. I didn't do anything special but just let the hardware perform to its full potential.
Like I said, the Tuner basically configured the EMS and nothing else. They didn't right the code so there is nothing proprietary about it. The Tuner didn't discover how Fuel and Oxygen react together, nor how engine works, those are public knowledge that can be learned by just going to the Public Library. So what are they really protecting? Are you telling me that these tuners discovered that running 12:1 AF yield more power than running 10:1 Fuel Ratio so that is why they need to lock it so no body find it out? I agree that there are bad tuners and good tuners, but punishing the customer who is technically has all the right to the product they purchased is plain wrong. If the owner is knowledgeable then they should have the right to have it open... Just my .02
Last edited by athenG; 08-18-2008 at 11:40 AM.
08-18-2008, 11:51 AM
#112
Most of the discussion is irrelevant since its impossible to come to any agreement about what is "right" or "wrong". Clearly there are many opinions. There is only what was agreed to, explicitly or implicity, verbally or in writing. If there was no agreement on the issue before the work order was issued, then there can be no basis for a complaint after the fact.
08-18-2008, 12:06 PM
#113
Originally Posted by rcdash
Most of the discussion is irrelevant since its impossible to come to any agreement about what is "right" or "wrong". Clearly there are many opinions. There is only what was agreed to, explicitly or implicity, verbally or in writing. If there was no agreement on the issue before the work order was issued, then there can be no basis for a complaint after the fact.
08-18-2008, 12:13 PM
#114
Originally Posted by rcdash
Most of the discussion is irrelevant since its impossible to come to any agreement about what is "right" or "wrong". Clearly there are many opinions. There is only what was agreed to, explicitly or implicity, verbally or in writing. If there was no agreement on the issue before the work order was issued, then there can be no basis for a complaint after the fact.
08-18-2008, 12:17 PM
#115
Registered User
iTrader: (18)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Piscataway, NJ
Posts: 2,148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by rcdash
Most of the discussion is irrelevant since its impossible to come to any agreement about what is "right" or "wrong". Clearly there are many opinions. There is only what was agreed to, explicitly or implicity, verbally or in writing. If there was no agreement on the issue before the work order was issued, then there can be no basis for a complaint after the fact.
+1 There can be no disagreement without an original agreement
08-18-2008, 02:49 PM
#116
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Southeast
Posts: 663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lots of debate on this one and a few analogies that kind of fit (and I admit mine was probably the worst one, lol).
I have a good friend that is a lawyer,... specializes in IP protection, patent law, copyrights, blah, blah, blah
After my 15 minute explanation of what an EMS is, the several different types, what is a "tune" and the function of a "tuner",.. his simple words were:
"go look into the definition of a trade secret"
There are three factors that typically are common to all such definitions of a trade secret, that being:
1. Is not generally known to the public;
2. Confers some sort of economic benefit on its holder, where this benefit must derive specifically from its not being generally known, not just from the value of the information itself;
3. Is the subject of reasonable efforts to maintain its secrecy;
I personally believe the act of "tuning a car" to "extract a higher level of performance" vs. "a competitor tuner",... fits the definition of a trade secret perfectly, therefore the need to protect it in the marketplace.
Basically, tunes are trade secrets because tuners & shop owners compete in the marketplace against each other and do not want to compete against private parties as well. In order to sustain an economic benefit, tunes are therefore to be protected if any economic benefit will ultimately be derived.
Basically, it doesn't really matter as already stated so many times I cannot believe I'm typing it again. No way would I ever try to tune my car, that's what I pay a good tuner to do, lol.
I have a good friend that is a lawyer,... specializes in IP protection, patent law, copyrights, blah, blah, blah
After my 15 minute explanation of what an EMS is, the several different types, what is a "tune" and the function of a "tuner",.. his simple words were:
"go look into the definition of a trade secret"
There are three factors that typically are common to all such definitions of a trade secret, that being:
1. Is not generally known to the public;
2. Confers some sort of economic benefit on its holder, where this benefit must derive specifically from its not being generally known, not just from the value of the information itself;
3. Is the subject of reasonable efforts to maintain its secrecy;
I personally believe the act of "tuning a car" to "extract a higher level of performance" vs. "a competitor tuner",... fits the definition of a trade secret perfectly, therefore the need to protect it in the marketplace.
Basically, tunes are trade secrets because tuners & shop owners compete in the marketplace against each other and do not want to compete against private parties as well. In order to sustain an economic benefit, tunes are therefore to be protected if any economic benefit will ultimately be derived.
Basically, it doesn't really matter as already stated so many times I cannot believe I'm typing it again. No way would I ever try to tune my car, that's what I pay a good tuner to do, lol.
08-18-2008, 03:06 PM
#117
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Texas, Arizona,Cayman Island
Posts: 5,256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ToastZ
Lots of debate on this one and a few analogies that kind of fit (and I admit mine was probably the worst one, lol).
I have a good friend that is a lawyer,... specializes in IP protection, patent law, copyrights, blah, blah, blah
After my 15 minute explanation of what an EMS is, the several different types, what is a "tune" and the function of a "tuner",.. his simple words were:
"go look into the definition of a trade secret"
There are three factors that typically are common to all such definitions of a trade secret, that being:
1. Is not generally known to the public;
2. Confers some sort of economic benefit on its holder, where this benefit must derive specifically from its not being generally known, not just from the value of the information itself;
3. Is the subject of reasonable efforts to maintain its secrecy;
I personally believe the act of "tuning a car" to "extract a higher level of performance" vs. "a competitor tuner",... fits the definition of a trade secret perfectly, therefore the need to protect it in the marketplace.
Basically, tunes are trade secrets because tuners & shop owners compete in the marketplace against each other and do not want to compete against private parties as well. In order to sustain an economic benefit, tunes are therefore to be protected if any economic benefit will ultimately be derived.
Basically, it doesn't really matter as already stated so many times I cannot believe I'm typing it again. No way would I ever try to tune my car, that's what I pay a good tuner to do, lol.
I have a good friend that is a lawyer,... specializes in IP protection, patent law, copyrights, blah, blah, blah
After my 15 minute explanation of what an EMS is, the several different types, what is a "tune" and the function of a "tuner",.. his simple words were:
"go look into the definition of a trade secret"
There are three factors that typically are common to all such definitions of a trade secret, that being:
1. Is not generally known to the public;
2. Confers some sort of economic benefit on its holder, where this benefit must derive specifically from its not being generally known, not just from the value of the information itself;
3. Is the subject of reasonable efforts to maintain its secrecy;
I personally believe the act of "tuning a car" to "extract a higher level of performance" vs. "a competitor tuner",... fits the definition of a trade secret perfectly, therefore the need to protect it in the marketplace.
Basically, tunes are trade secrets because tuners & shop owners compete in the marketplace against each other and do not want to compete against private parties as well. In order to sustain an economic benefit, tunes are therefore to be protected if any economic benefit will ultimately be derived.
Basically, it doesn't really matter as already stated so many times I cannot believe I'm typing it again. No way would I ever try to tune my car, that's what I pay a good tuner to do, lol.
08-18-2008, 03:14 PM
#118
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Southeast
Posts: 663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by XKR
This says it all. I always felt that the tuners had a right to protect this info....this goes back to what Doug said about KFC.
08-18-2008, 04:15 PM
#119
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I give up.. those are no secret!! You go to tuning school and everything is there to be learned!! Tuner didn't event the laws of tuning. All cars needed to be tune independently because there is no one map that fits all!!! Get it? A map from a different car doesn't mean it will work well to the next car. If a Tuner can write a Map that will Fit at least 70% car out there then yes that is one big freaking secret. But the fact is you cant just use someones map and put it in your car and expect to get the same result. So what is the secret now? Oh, are we talking about the secret what how much timing they are running? That is no secret eigther coz all engine pretty much follow the same rule. Oh, are they protecting how much Fuel they are running? Gees what that is no secret either, as matter of fact most tuner tune their car differently since some prefer leaner A/F and some want some extra safety and run fatter A/F. What secret again? The only reason some tuner lock their EMS is just they either want to prevent the noobs from ****ing things up or just hold their customer hostage.
by the way there are hundreds if not thousands of self learned tuner in this planet so what the secret again? There are hundreds of books regarding tuning.. The only thing separate the self learned tuner and a pro is that a pro just has more experience and has more tools in their disposal. Give that same tool to a self learned tuner then he can tune his car much better too... So what is the secret?
by the way there are hundreds if not thousands of self learned tuner in this planet so what the secret again? There are hundreds of books regarding tuning.. The only thing separate the self learned tuner and a pro is that a pro just has more experience and has more tools in their disposal. Give that same tool to a self learned tuner then he can tune his car much better too... So what is the secret?
Last edited by athenG; 08-18-2008 at 04:26 PM.
08-18-2008, 04:37 PM
#120
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Southeast
Posts: 663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by athenG
I give up.. those are no secret!! You go to tuning school and everything is there to be learned!! Tuner didn't event the laws of tuning. All cars needed to be tune independently because there is no one map that fits all!!! Get it? A map from a different car doesn't mean it will work well to the next car. If a Tuner can write a Map that will Fit at least 70% car out there then yes that is one big freaking secret. But the fact is you cant just use someones map and put it in your car and expect to get the same result. So what is the secret now? Oh, are we talking about the secret what how much timing they are running? That is no secret eigther coz all engine pretty much follow the same rule. Oh, are they protecting how much Fuel they are running? Gees what that is no secret either, as matter of fact most tuner tune their car differently since some prefer leaner A/F and some want some extra safety and run fatter A/F. What secret again? The only reason some tuner lock their EMS is just they either want to prevent the noobs from ****ing things up or just hold their customer hostage.
by the way there are hundreds if not thousands of self learned tuner in this planet so what the secret again? There are hundreds of books regarding tuning.. The only thing separate the self learned tuner and a pro is that a pro just has more experience and has more tools in their disposal. Give that same tool to a self learned tuner then he can tune his car much better too... So what is the secret?
by the way there are hundreds if not thousands of self learned tuner in this planet so what the secret again? There are hundreds of books regarding tuning.. The only thing separate the self learned tuner and a pro is that a pro just has more experience and has more tools in their disposal. Give that same tool to a self learned tuner then he can tune his car much better too... So what is the secret?