350 Rookie

iTrader: (29)

In that case, Can we throw ice cubes in there to really chill things down?

FranksBAG

Just sounds like u guys r just to freakin cheap to buy the real deal and forget how to mix meth & water. boost juice. plus if u have the sno perf kit warrranty for life if u buy their boost juice.

chopperman

iTrader: (9)

Wow are you kidding me? Mixing it yourself and buying boost juice is the same exact thing. Do you think that since it says "boost" that its the real deal, lamo.

GTM

iTrader: (12)

Problem with that is, that if you tune it with ice cubes, then they melt, your tune will be off, so best bet is to just use distilled water.

The ability to run more timing and leaner A/F is what gives you more power not the water (or methanol) its self. Water is a GREAT knock suppressant, so water, plus 100 octane unleaded, would be ultimate in my opinion. Which is what my second 700whp map will be.

You will still be able to make great power with just water plus pump gas, also use at least a Aquamist HFS-5 kit or better, all the other kits (that are less expensive) are just inadequate in my opinion.

Good luck, water injection is awesome!

-George

athenG

iTrader: (2)

I understand your point in term of reliability but meth is party oxygenated and combine that with its characteristic of clean burning fuel and higher octane then that will help inside the engine since Oxygen is vary a scarce resource. Aquamist HFS-5 is already a top notch kit so reliability shouldn't be an issue right? and combine that with a top EMS then you now have some nice reliable setup. just my .02

WTX350Z

iTrader: (8)

When I did a water/alcohol injection on a SRT4, I only used ambient temp fluids. I figure decreasing the variables is always a good thing.

FWIW I was one of the first SRT4's to do this, as the ppl on the boards thought we (small group of 4 ppl IIRC) were nuts. But if you talk to any GN or Supra Enthusiast they will educate you on the wonders that are water injection.

The guy named his business coolingmist I do believe.

The trouble of my comparison of SRT4 to Z is the whole OE turbo, non OE turbo. As the Dodge was pulling timing from the factory with our 100 degree days, and 91 octane fuel...thus simply adding water to the mix allowed that timing to be returned, and it was impressive. where-as you guys really will need to tune to see how much timing, boost, you can run.

YMMV, I hope at least something here was helpful, its been a few years and I haven't messed with any of that since. So if it looks foggy, that's why.

GTM

iTrader: (12)

How are you going to make sure the exact same amount of methanol is going to get to every cylinder? You can't since basically what you have created is a throttle body fuel injector. (Common in the late 80's, early 90's in ford trucks)

Water will atomize and evaporate much better giving you super cool combustion chamber temps, drastically increasing the knock threshold, key part being it will be the same, in all cylinders.

I just don't see why you would want to ingest fuel threw the intake system, causing uneven distribution, when we have fuel injectors to take care of that. It just seems primitive to me.

But hey, many many people are running methanol this way, with no problems, except the possibility of blowing up your intake manifold. Its just not for me I rather pay extra to have race fuel in the tank, and get proper distribution of fuel in every cylinder.

Just my opinions on the topic.

-George

athenG

iTrader: (2)

Meth and water are both atomized when spraying coz that is the only way. But I do understand your point of unevenness of the distribution on each cylinder. I guess it a personal preference.

GTM

iTrader: (12)

It is, and I can respect your opinion on the matter. We all have different theories/views/opinions just because we cannot agree doesn't mean we can't learn from each other

Once I get my car back and broken in I will have more feedback for my assessments.

-George

350 Rookie

iTrader: (29)

How about the AEM kits, thats what i have. So pretty much, you're telling me methanol is just a marketing hype and water does exactly same ****.

ttg35fort

iTrader: (2)

Here is an interesting report from NACA (which became NASA in 1958) comparing water injection to water/meth injection and the injection of other solutions.

http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...report-812.pdf

Based on the report, a mix of 70% methanol and 30% water (by volume, not weight) looks pretty good. The report shows that it significantly outperforms straight water at AFRs you are likely going to run in a car.

Monomethylamine/water and dimethylamine/water solutions also showed very nice results for knock prevention, although there were some issues with surface ignition that were alleviated by reducing the power level slightly.
Nonetheless, my guess is that methonal is probably much cheaper and easier to get hold of than monomethylamine and dimethylamine, but have not investigated that.

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

If you set up FCON EGT compensation map to control timing advance, you can reap the potential horsepower benefits of water injection without the need for any kind of failsafe. Is that the plan?

There are benefits to both methanol and water and their different properties have different impacts. Methanol will evaporate more readily in the intake charge compared to water so my understanding is that atomization isn't AS important as for water (atomization is better for both, but especially necessary for water). Methanol (due to evaporation) will have a greater effect cooling the intake charge compared to water alone. Unlike water, methanol will burn in the combustion chamber (though it's octane rating is high). Both help to prevent detonation by a soaking up energy during the combustion process. In the case of methanol, the activation energy required to burn is higher than for gasoline. For water, the process of moving from liquid to gas soaks up heat energy. Water does not produce any energy in this process and in fact can displace the air/fuel mixture while in the liquid state. EGTs will drop more from water than from methanol. But I digress. The bottom line is they each have their place depending on your goals.

Less than a 50/50 mix of water and methanol is not considered flammable, which is why I think many W/M injection kit manufacturers do not recommend more than that ratio.

I'm still undecided, but I think a 80/20 or 70/30 W/M mix is where I'll end up. I'm waiting for the 32 input/output Haltech module to regulate injection and timing based on load, rpm, EGT and air temp feedback.

I'd like to know what people run for air intake temps at the plenum. I typically run around 100-110 degF in 80 degF ambient temps on the highway, which seems reasonable to me (without any W/M injection).

Blackbird CPV35

iTrader: (19)

I guess the next thing to invent would be a direct port Meth Injection kit!

(dibs on Patent)

MADScientist

iTrader: (3)

I typically run 15-20 degrees above ambient on the highway... When the meth kit activates my temps drop to ambient or even slightly below (3-5 degrees) on a multiple gear pull... Keep in mind with my setup I am having to pull 25-30% out of my base fuel tables to compensate for the amount of meth I am spraying. And I run 100% meth.

athenG

iTrader: (2)

what sensor do you use to measure the inlet temp? I assume you have another sensor mounted in the manifold?

XKR

iTrader: (1)

Like I said to George/GTM ... "Real men use 100% Meth"

XKR

iTrader: (1)

The GTM IC gauge is what I will use because even though I have the nav-pro its too hard to see.

frankie945

iTrader: (35)

After my build this winter I plan on running straight water hopefully no need for the meth. The only reason I running 50/50 so I can advance the timing in my maps getting some extra pony's.Which it does well when tuned correct. I love the ease of Snow performance kits they are reliable and work great for there cost.

MADScientist

iTrader: (3)

That is read directly off of the FCon IAT sensor in the intake manifold.

MADScientist

iTrader: (3)

water? FAIL!!!