few questions about water/methanol?
08-21-2008, 03:35 PM
#43
Originally Posted by rcdash
If you set up FCON EGT compensation map to control timing advance, you can reap the potential horsepower benefits of water injection without the need for any kind of failsafe. Is that the plan? 
....
....
I am glad to see more forum members running water injection, for the cost, the benefits are well worth it.
08-21-2008, 03:38 PM
#45
Originally Posted by jkenefic
^^^ Just giving you crap man! haha
But with out the octane effect of the meth I will be amazed if you do make more power...
But with out the octane effect of the meth I will be amazed if you do make more power...
As you stated all the power in Meth comes from the octane rating, water actually cools the combustion chamber much more effectively, so people that are looking to use water injection for safety are better off just running water anyway.
08-21-2008, 03:45 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by George@GTM
I don't know, what will you guys say when I make more power with just water? 
Just an experiment I am going to be trying out, we will see what happens, and I will share my results good or bad.
Just an experiment I am going to be trying out, we will see what happens, and I will share my results good or bad.
Kool.... let us know how i works out.
08-22-2008, 02:55 PM
#49
Originally Posted by George@GTM
I don't know, what will you guys say when I make more power with just water?
Just an experiment I am going to be trying out, we will see what happens, and I will share my results good or bad.
Just an experiment I am going to be trying out, we will see what happens, and I will share my results good or bad.
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...report-812.pdf
First, please note that the report shows fuel-air ratio (FAR) instead of air-fuel ratio (AFR), but the two are inversely proportional. In other words AFR = 1 / FAR.
As shown in Figure 5(b), the only time water outperformed a solution of 70% meth / 30% water was at an intake air temperature of 250 deg. F. and an FAR < 0.066 (i.e. at AFRs above 15). I would not expect that anybody would want to run that high of an air intake temperature. It would be interesting to play around with lean AFRs and see what kind of hp you can get, but I wouldn't do it on my engine.
Figure 5(c) is a little closer to the temperature conditions a modern car may see, especially if someone is running turbos without an intercoooler. As shown in Figure 5(c), with an intake air tempterature of 150 deg. F, a solution of 70% meth / 30% water significantly outperforms straight water in knock prevention. Indeed, at an FAR of 0.085, which is an AFR of 11.76, the indicated mean effective pressure (IMEP) that was achieved without knock using the 70/30 meth/water solution was 460 lb/sq in. (3.17 MPa), whereas the highest IMEP that was achieved with 100% water was only about 325 lb/sq in. (2.24 MPa). Since Torque is direclty proportional to the mean effective pressure (MEP), the 70/30 meth/water mixture provided a 41% improvement in torque as compared to straight water.
For those who are curious, mean effective pressure (MEP) is the average pressure exerted on the piston during each power stroke. There are two forms of (MEP), indicated mean effective pressure (IMEP) and brake mean effective pressure (BMEP). The IMEP is measured within the engine. The BMEP is computed from the brake power delivered by the engine. In a four stroke engine, MEP is given by the following equation:
MEP = (4*pi*T)/V
where T = torque in newton meters (n*m), V = engine displacement in cubic meters (m^3) and MPEP is calculated in Pascal (Pa). If you use the English measurement system (which even the English themselves have dropped, for the most part), be sure to include all of the conversion factors that are necessary. (In Thermodynamics, I hated it when the Prof. made us work problems using English measurements.
) Now, I don't know anyone who would be running a 250 degree intake air temperature and an AFR > 15. Thus, I think it is safe to say that for all practical circumstances, the 70/30 meth/water ratio outperforms straight water for the purpose of knock prevention, and thus allows for greater boost and torque/hp. Also note that the performance differences increased significantly as the intake air temperature decreased from 250 deg. to 150 deg. This seems to indicate that water is very effective at cooling the air intake charge, but it's usefullness declines when cooler air intake charges are used.
With a good inter-cooler, I think you could see intake air temperatures closer to the 100 deg. range, depending on where you live and the time of year. Thus, I think the performance differences may be even greater than those shown in Figure 5(c).
That being said, it would be very interesting to compare the use of the 70/30 meth/water solution to straight methanol. The guys , like XKR, running straight methanol may be onto something. I know my tuner, Roger at Japtrix, recommended to try straight methanol over a meth/water mix.
RCDash mentioned Luie's plenum explosion. Was this due to running 100% meth, or running 100% meth with nitrous injection? If anyone knows the answer, please post it here.
One last thing, please keep in mind that the tests ran by NACA were conducted using aircraft fuel, which already has very high octane, and they also used very high boost pressures. I wouldn't expect to be able to achieve 460 lb/sq in. (3.17 MPa) cylinder pressures on pump gas.
08-22-2008, 03:32 PM
#50
Hi George:
Based on the above, it might be worth while to include the 70/30 meth/water ratio in your'e experiment. Of course, data on the use of straight water and straight methanol in a VQ motor would be nice to have.
As I think about this a little more, water injection alone may be adequate for those who are not looking to achieve the highest hp levels, but only want good daily drivers. Also, water would be helpful for those with small intercoolers or who are not getting good airflow to their intercoolers. In addition, water is much easier/cheaper to buy and to handle. So, in contrast to the tone of my previous post, I think you also may be on to something.
Best regards
Based on the above, it might be worth while to include the 70/30 meth/water ratio in your'e experiment. Of course, data on the use of straight water and straight methanol in a VQ motor would be nice to have.
As I think about this a little more, water injection alone may be adequate for those who are not looking to achieve the highest hp levels, but only want good daily drivers. Also, water would be helpful for those with small intercoolers or who are not getting good airflow to their intercoolers. In addition, water is much easier/cheaper to buy and to handle. So, in contrast to the tone of my previous post, I think you also may be on to something.
Best regards
08-22-2008, 03:54 PM
#51
Thanks for the info, I will keep you guys posted on my experiments.
I haven't seen anyone do what I will be doing on this forum, yet.
There is no question that methanol will significantly increase the octane rating of the fuel, therefore allowing for more power via timing. But I am looking for something more precise, not just injecting fuel into the intake, and will be making the same amount of power other people are making with methanol anyways. I do not plan on making much more than 700rwhp, so if I can do that with only water, why introduce methanol to the equation is my perspective.
Again, constructive criticism is always appreciated.
-George
I haven't seen anyone do what I will be doing on this forum, yet.
There is no question that methanol will significantly increase the octane rating of the fuel, therefore allowing for more power via timing. But I am looking for something more precise, not just injecting fuel into the intake, and will be making the same amount of power other people are making with methanol anyways. I do not plan on making much more than 700rwhp, so if I can do that with only water, why introduce methanol to the equation is my perspective.
Again, constructive criticism is always appreciated.
-George
08-22-2008, 04:06 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by ttg35fort
Hi George:
Based on the above, it might be worth while to include the 70/30 meth/water ratio in your'e experiment. Of course, data on the use of straight water and straight methanol in a VQ motor would be nice to have.
As I think about this a little more, water injection alone may be adequate for those who are not looking to achieve the highest hp levels, but only want good daily drivers. Also, water would be helpful for those with small intercoolers or who are not getting good airflow to their intercoolers. In addition, water is much easier/cheaper to buy and to handle. So, in contrast to the tone of my previous post, I think you also may be on to something.
Best regards
Based on the above, it might be worth while to include the 70/30 meth/water ratio in your'e experiment. Of course, data on the use of straight water and straight methanol in a VQ motor would be nice to have.
As I think about this a little more, water injection alone may be adequate for those who are not looking to achieve the highest hp levels, but only want good daily drivers. Also, water would be helpful for those with small intercoolers or who are not getting good airflow to their intercoolers. In addition, water is much easier/cheaper to buy and to handle. So, in contrast to the tone of my previous post, I think you also may be on to something.
Best regards
Jkenefic aka the "Mad Scientist" knows alot about this because he was the one that correct Luie's meth setup.....matter of fact he was the one that brought Meth Injection to the G/Z platform.
If he does not drop in...I will pm him and get him to skool us alittle.
08-22-2008, 04:45 PM
#53
The link in my post above is not working. Let's try again.
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...report-812.pdf
George:
Please refer to Figures 5(a) and 5(c). At an AFR of 11.76, at 250 degrees F intake air temperature, straight water provided a 34% improvement over using no secondary injection at all. At 150 degrees F intake air temperature, the performance increase drops down to around 13%.
Nonetheless, these tests were performed using airplane fuel. For standard pump gas, the knock prevention results with water may be better, and it may be enough to get you over 700 hp. Please let us know how it works out.
Also, in my earlier post, I indicated that water worked better at 250 degrees F with AFRs over 15. I need to clarify that. Per Figure 5(b), it allowed greater intake air pressure, but as shown in Figure 5(a), the IMEP, and thus the torque/hp, was still lower. Methanol is a fuel itself, and helps to increase the IMAP, even with a lower intake air pressure.
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...report-812.pdf
George:
Please refer to Figures 5(a) and 5(c). At an AFR of 11.76, at 250 degrees F intake air temperature, straight water provided a 34% improvement over using no secondary injection at all. At 150 degrees F intake air temperature, the performance increase drops down to around 13%.
Nonetheless, these tests were performed using airplane fuel. For standard pump gas, the knock prevention results with water may be better, and it may be enough to get you over 700 hp. Please let us know how it works out.
Also, in my earlier post, I indicated that water worked better at 250 degrees F with AFRs over 15. I need to clarify that. Per Figure 5(b), it allowed greater intake air pressure, but as shown in Figure 5(a), the IMEP, and thus the torque/hp, was still lower. Methanol is a fuel itself, and helps to increase the IMAP, even with a lower intake air pressure.
08-22-2008, 05:31 PM
#54
Originally Posted by XKR
I was trying to look up Luie's post on what happened why his plenum blew up but could not find it....I will look again later. But from what I remember it happened because the setting was way off he was WOT came off it suddenly and went WOT again and it blew....he corrected it and everything was ok after that.
Jkenefic aka the "Mad Scientist" knows alot about this because he was the one that correct Luie's meth setup.....matter of fact he was the one that brought Meth Injection to the G/Z platform.
If he does not drop in...I will pm him and get him to skool us alittle.
Jkenefic aka the "Mad Scientist" knows alot about this because he was the one that correct Luie's meth setup.....matter of fact he was the one that brought Meth Injection to the G/Z platform.
If he does not drop in...I will pm him and get him to skool us alittle.
08-22-2008, 06:33 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by ttg35fort
I PM'd Luie asking him if he was running 100% meth or a meth/water mix. I don't know if he is still following this forum, but if I here back I'll post it.
08-22-2008, 07:17 PM
#56
Originally Posted by ttg35fort
The link in my post above is not working. Let's try again.
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...report-812.pdf
George:
Please refer to Figures 5(a) and 5(c). At an AFR of 11.76, at 250 degrees F intake air temperature, straight water provided a 34% improvement over using no secondary injection at all. At 150 degrees F intake air temperature, the performance increase drops down to around 13%.
Nonetheless, these tests were performed using airplane fuel. For standard pump gas, the knock prevention results with water may be better, and it may be enough to get you over 700 hp. Please let us know how it works out.
Also, in my earlier post, I indicated that water worked better at 250 degrees F with AFRs over 15. I need to clarify that. Per Figure 5(b), it allowed greater intake air pressure, but as shown in Figure 5(a), the IMEP, and thus the torque/hp, was still lower. Methanol is a fuel itself, and helps to increase the IMAP, even with a lower intake air pressure.
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...report-812.pdf
George:
Please refer to Figures 5(a) and 5(c). At an AFR of 11.76, at 250 degrees F intake air temperature, straight water provided a 34% improvement over using no secondary injection at all. At 150 degrees F intake air temperature, the performance increase drops down to around 13%.
Nonetheless, these tests were performed using airplane fuel. For standard pump gas, the knock prevention results with water may be better, and it may be enough to get you over 700 hp. Please let us know how it works out.
Also, in my earlier post, I indicated that water worked better at 250 degrees F with AFRs over 15. I need to clarify that. Per Figure 5(b), it allowed greater intake air pressure, but as shown in Figure 5(a), the IMEP, and thus the torque/hp, was still lower. Methanol is a fuel itself, and helps to increase the IMAP, even with a lower intake air pressure.
Other few problems with the article that make it difficult to apply with certainty to our platforms: timing was stuck at 30 degrees BTDC, rpms were stuck at 2500 rpms, and compression was 7.0. Not saying it was a bad experiment (keeping these constant and changing just the FAR and coolant injection is fine) but that its hard to apply to different circumstances.
In regards to Luie's exploding plenum, I believe there was an issue related to how the BOV was set up and Joe corrected this. It doesn't change the fact that 100% methanol is flammable and explosive and you are pumping it throughout your intake system. Where is your injection point Mike?
Last edited by rcdash; 08-22-2008 at 07:45 PM.
08-22-2008, 07:50 PM
#57
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Another downside to meth injection at any percentage over just water injection is that with any fuel (i'll use fuel as something that will ignite, opposed to water for this example), exposure to air and light change the characteristics.
If you keep a 5 gallon jug of meth around so you can mix your own, is it in the original container, and is that container dark in color. If it has been poured by a speed shop from their large container to your smaller container you have given it one point of exposure to oxygen. If you let it sit for a few weeks, then pour some out to mix another batch to toss into the car, you've given it s second exposure and so on. Seeing as how most of these kits will hold 1-2 gallons at most and your 50/50 ratio is going to be closer to 60/40 by weight, it's going to take you quite a bit of time to work through the whole 5 gallon jug. If you tuned the car on fresh meth mix, by the end of that 5 gallons, your tune is going to be off.
Same thing happens with race gas, too many people have clear jugs, or will leave the cap off for a while etc. That exposure starts a chemical reation that doesn't stop the instant you cap it. You lose octane, you lose other volatile compounds, it changes the way that fuel reacts.
For most people, running regular old water is going to be the safest, cleanest, cheapest, easiest route. For the people that really need it then sure, I guess having the meth does help, but to what cost of ownership. Also where are you going to find your meth mix in the middle of downtown Cleveland on a Wednesday afternoon when you run out to pick up aunt Matilda at the airport....
Keep It Simple Stupid.
You will see nice stable gains with water injection. As long as it's a good kit, installed properly, and tuned accordingly, you'll have plenty of happy stress free miles. When you run out of water, you can just add more water and continue forth.
If you keep a 5 gallon jug of meth around so you can mix your own, is it in the original container, and is that container dark in color. If it has been poured by a speed shop from their large container to your smaller container you have given it one point of exposure to oxygen. If you let it sit for a few weeks, then pour some out to mix another batch to toss into the car, you've given it s second exposure and so on. Seeing as how most of these kits will hold 1-2 gallons at most and your 50/50 ratio is going to be closer to 60/40 by weight, it's going to take you quite a bit of time to work through the whole 5 gallon jug. If you tuned the car on fresh meth mix, by the end of that 5 gallons, your tune is going to be off.
Same thing happens with race gas, too many people have clear jugs, or will leave the cap off for a while etc. That exposure starts a chemical reation that doesn't stop the instant you cap it. You lose octane, you lose other volatile compounds, it changes the way that fuel reacts.
For most people, running regular old water is going to be the safest, cleanest, cheapest, easiest route. For the people that really need it then sure, I guess having the meth does help, but to what cost of ownership. Also where are you going to find your meth mix in the middle of downtown Cleveland on a Wednesday afternoon when you run out to pick up aunt Matilda at the airport....
Keep It Simple Stupid.
You will see nice stable gains with water injection. As long as it's a good kit, installed properly, and tuned accordingly, you'll have plenty of happy stress free miles. When you run out of water, you can just add more water and continue forth.
08-23-2008, 09:07 AM
#59
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Originally Posted by UpRev
Another downside to meth injection at any percentage over just water injection is that with any fuel (i'll use fuel as something that will ignite, opposed to water for this example), exposure to air and light change the characteristics.
If you keep a 5 gallon jug of meth around so you can mix your own, is it in the original container, and is that container dark in color. If it has been poured by a speed shop from their large container to your smaller container you have given it one point of exposure to oxygen. If you let it sit for a few weeks, then pour some out to mix another batch to toss into the car, you've given it s second exposure and so on. Seeing as how most of these kits will hold 1-2 gallons at most and your 50/50 ratio is going to be closer to 60/40 by weight, it's going to take you quite a bit of time to work through the whole 5 gallon jug. If you tuned the car on fresh meth mix, by the end of that 5 gallons, your tune is going to be off.
Same thing happens with race gas, too many people have clear jugs, or will leave the cap off for a while etc. That exposure starts a chemical reation that doesn't stop the instant you cap it. You lose octane, you lose other volatile compounds, it changes the way that fuel reacts.
For most people, running regular old water is going to be the safest, cleanest, cheapest, easiest route. For the people that really need it then sure, I guess having the meth does help, but to what cost of ownership. Also where are you going to find your meth mix in the middle of downtown Cleveland on a Wednesday afternoon when you run out to pick up aunt Matilda at the airport....
Keep It Simple Stupid.
You will see nice stable gains with water injection. As long as it's a good kit, installed properly, and tuned accordingly, you'll have plenty of happy stress free miles. When you run out of water, you can just add more water and continue forth.
If you keep a 5 gallon jug of meth around so you can mix your own, is it in the original container, and is that container dark in color. If it has been poured by a speed shop from their large container to your smaller container you have given it one point of exposure to oxygen. If you let it sit for a few weeks, then pour some out to mix another batch to toss into the car, you've given it s second exposure and so on. Seeing as how most of these kits will hold 1-2 gallons at most and your 50/50 ratio is going to be closer to 60/40 by weight, it's going to take you quite a bit of time to work through the whole 5 gallon jug. If you tuned the car on fresh meth mix, by the end of that 5 gallons, your tune is going to be off.
Same thing happens with race gas, too many people have clear jugs, or will leave the cap off for a while etc. That exposure starts a chemical reation that doesn't stop the instant you cap it. You lose octane, you lose other volatile compounds, it changes the way that fuel reacts.
For most people, running regular old water is going to be the safest, cleanest, cheapest, easiest route. For the people that really need it then sure, I guess having the meth does help, but to what cost of ownership. Also where are you going to find your meth mix in the middle of downtown Cleveland on a Wednesday afternoon when you run out to pick up aunt Matilda at the airport....
Keep It Simple Stupid.
You will see nice stable gains with water injection. As long as it's a good kit, installed properly, and tuned accordingly, you'll have plenty of happy stress free miles. When you run out of water, you can just add more water and continue forth.
The same can be said for racing fuel...gas you get from a gas station. Does anyone of us test the octane level in the fuel we buy?
the oxygen content A big fat NO! Yes I agree about exposing the meth to light and leaving the container open for long length of time....both that alone will not lower the meth to zero value and place water above it.
08-23-2008, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rcdash
Interesting article. Thanks for posting it. The AN-F28 fuel is apparently over 100 octane by itself and as you noted, George's experience with 91 octane may be significantly different. Keep us posted George!
Other few problems with the article that make it difficult to apply with certainty to our platforms: timing was stuck at 30 degrees BTDC, rpms were stuck at 2500 rpms, and compression was 7.0. Not saying it was a bad experiment (keeping these constant and changing just the FAR and coolant injection is fine) but that its hard to apply to different circumstances.
In regards to Luie's exploding plenum, I believe there was an issue related to how the BOV was set up and Joe corrected this. It doesn't change the fact that 100% methanol is flammable and explosive and you are pumping it throughout your intake system. Where is your injection point Mike?
Other few problems with the article that make it difficult to apply with certainty to our platforms: timing was stuck at 30 degrees BTDC, rpms were stuck at 2500 rpms, and compression was 7.0. Not saying it was a bad experiment (keeping these constant and changing just the FAR and coolant injection is fine) but that its hard to apply to different circumstances.
In regards to Luie's exploding plenum, I believe there was an issue related to how the BOV was set up and Joe corrected this. It doesn't change the fact that 100% methanol is flammable and explosive and you are pumping it throughout your intake system. Where is your injection point Mike?
