My Build: The Good, The Bad & The Progress
03-30-2009, 09:41 PM
#781
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Do what I do...
Let the car sit and collect dust as you REALLY think about what you want out of it while you save money. Making a decision anytime soon will be made with anger/frustration. This is one of the craziest cases Ive ever seen, I really feel for you. I would be very close to just walking away from it all...
Let the car sit and collect dust as you REALLY think about what you want out of it while you save money. Making a decision anytime soon will be made with anger/frustration. This is one of the craziest cases Ive ever seen, I really feel for you. I would be very close to just walking away from it all...
I'm truly sorry to see this happen to you though man! Complete SUCK!!!!!
03-31-2009, 02:16 AM
#782
i am also on the side that is suspicious of the root cause.
not to mention... correct me if im wrong because its been 3 years or so since i assembled a VQ... but im almost positive that an o-ring is not supposed to be there, but a unique sealing ring that is something like a piston ring is supposed to be there...
am i crazy? ive built a VQ 100% myself 5-6 times (but its been a while) and i really dont remember a regular o-ring ever being there, i remember a notched piston-ring like seal.
not to mention... correct me if im wrong because its been 3 years or so since i assembled a VQ... but im almost positive that an o-ring is not supposed to be there, but a unique sealing ring that is something like a piston ring is supposed to be there...
am i crazy? ive built a VQ 100% myself 5-6 times (but its been a while) and i really dont remember a regular o-ring ever being there, i remember a notched piston-ring like seal.
Last edited by phunk; 03-31-2009 at 02:22 AM.
03-31-2009, 05:31 AM
#784
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dunnn dunnn dunnn....somethings rotten in Demark 
keep pushing the issue, dont put the blame on your shoulders, a rebuild should be paid for by Hills Garage bc it seems hes at the root of the problem
keep pushing the issue, dont put the blame on your shoulders, a rebuild should be paid for by Hills Garage bc it seems hes at the root of the problem
03-31-2009, 05:39 AM
#785
Thanks for all the ideas/concerns guys. I will respond more specificly to posts in the near future, but right now I am just taking some time to make decisions and rediscovering some of my other toys - Yamaha R1 and Raptor. I have also rediscovered internet poker as a great stress relief. I am also eagerly awaiting Easter and the end of lent so I can go get my drunk on and clear my head. Until then I will continue to lurk mostly and try to figure out the best course of action.
03-31-2009, 05:46 AM
#786
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I say put back the stock engine and enjoy your ride with boost for the summer and rebuild the block slowly. The situation your in right now will seemed feverishly paced if you want the car ready for summer and things in haste don't always get done right.
I'm almost in the same situation in my widebody project and right now I'm taking a step back and just accepting that my car won't be ready for this summer but in your situation you have a good block and turbo that you can throw in and enjoy your car.
I been running 2yrs on my stock block at 430whp and even though I wish for more I'm happily content with the power it puts out until I can afford a proper build.
I'm almost in the same situation in my widebody project and right now I'm taking a step back and just accepting that my car won't be ready for this summer but in your situation you have a good block and turbo that you can throw in and enjoy your car.
I been running 2yrs on my stock block at 430whp and even though I wish for more I'm happily content with the power it puts out until I can afford a proper build.
03-31-2009, 09:52 AM
#787
i am also on the side that is suspicious of the root cause.
not to mention... correct me if im wrong because its been 3 years or so since i assembled a VQ... but im almost positive that an o-ring is not supposed to be there, but a unique sealing ring that is something like a piston ring is supposed to be there...
am i crazy? ive built a VQ 100% myself 5-6 times (but its been a while) and i really dont remember a regular o-ring ever being there, i remember a notched piston-ring like seal.
not to mention... correct me if im wrong because its been 3 years or so since i assembled a VQ... but im almost positive that an o-ring is not supposed to be there, but a unique sealing ring that is something like a piston ring is supposed to be there...
am i crazy? ive built a VQ 100% myself 5-6 times (but its been a while) and i really dont remember a regular o-ring ever being there, i remember a notched piston-ring like seal.
03-31-2009, 12:56 PM
#788
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WOW CASS
i cant believe i had missed this latest turn of events bud, i had stopped checking out your thread cause i figured you would be close to posting a new final thread. Sorry to see what is happening
...i think you should wait to see what it will take and time on the rebuild before you jump on option 2 while you do 1(as Glex suggested). Then downside is that you pay for work you are doing to redo again, so its more like renting an FI car for the summer.
If its 2-3(max) months then id say just wait and rebuilt it....
i cant believe i had missed this latest turn of events bud, i had stopped checking out your thread cause i figured you would be close to posting a new final thread. Sorry to see what is happening
...i think you should wait to see what it will take and time on the rebuild before you jump on option 2 while you do 1(as Glex suggested). Then downside is that you pay for work you are doing to redo again, so its more like renting an FI car for the summer.If its 2-3(max) months then id say just wait and rebuilt it....
03-31-2009, 01:33 PM
#789
not to mention... correct me if im wrong because its been 3 years or so since i assembled a VQ... but im almost positive that an o-ring is not supposed to be there, but a unique sealing ring that is something like a piston ring is supposed to be there...
am i crazy? ive built a VQ 100% myself 5-6 times (but its been a while) and i really dont remember a regular o-ring ever being there, i remember a notched piston-ring like seal.
am i crazy? ive built a VQ 100% myself 5-6 times (but its been a while) and i really dont remember a regular o-ring ever being there, i remember a notched piston-ring like seal.
Your right phunk. Yesterday when taking mine apart to be powder coated I pulled off a piston ring like seal.
03-31-2009, 03:22 PM
#790
so you purchased new ones and they had regular o-rings on them? odd... my 03 (non revup) definately doesnt have standard o-rings there... or are you saying that the seals you have on there are the ones we are describing? its hard to tell what they once were by the pictures of them damaged
03-31-2009, 06:04 PM
#791
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Phunk is correct.
My 04 VQ35 doesn't have o-rings there either. Its a metal sealing like ring.
My front timing cover and assorted pieces are also powder coated. I had a slight oil leak to find and had to take the water pump cover, cam covers, off the car and remove excess powder coating on the gasket sealing surfaces, and then reseal them.
My 04 VQ has a metal like sealing ring for the cam covers, just like Phunk described. The cam covers also went back on kind of snug, but really easily, no hammer involved... just weird to see a rubber gasket there in the picture.
Still, the cam covers slipped on so easily I find it hard to believe that could be an area of enough oil pressure to create oil starvation at the crank rods. Don't know, maybe the rubber gasket could have come apart over time and tiny pieces found their way into the oil system possibly ? That's a strange place for a rubber gasket with the cams turning around it, seems a place of high wear for such a small rubber gasket.
I agree with Alberto, step away and let the car sit a while.
My 04 VQ35 doesn't have o-rings there either. Its a metal sealing like ring.
My front timing cover and assorted pieces are also powder coated. I had a slight oil leak to find and had to take the water pump cover, cam covers, off the car and remove excess powder coating on the gasket sealing surfaces, and then reseal them.
My 04 VQ has a metal like sealing ring for the cam covers, just like Phunk described. The cam covers also went back on kind of snug, but really easily, no hammer involved... just weird to see a rubber gasket there in the picture.
Still, the cam covers slipped on so easily I find it hard to believe that could be an area of enough oil pressure to create oil starvation at the crank rods. Don't know, maybe the rubber gasket could have come apart over time and tiny pieces found their way into the oil system possibly ? That's a strange place for a rubber gasket with the cams turning around it, seems a place of high wear for such a small rubber gasket.
I agree with Alberto, step away and let the car sit a while.
Last edited by ToastZ; 03-31-2009 at 06:18 PM.
03-31-2009, 06:41 PM
#792
I just checked the service manual for the non-revup VQ35DE. THE FSM refers to the seal on the cam timing gear cover as a "seal ring." this is what Phunk was referring to. This IS NOT an O-ring. It is the exact same part as on the Revup gear covers too. the both fit into the intake cam timing gear assembly.
nonetheless, I really feel that this is not the source of our motor failure!
nonetheless, I really feel that this is not the source of our motor failure!
03-31-2009, 07:19 PM
#794
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I also had piston ring like sealing rings when I assembled my engine. These type of seals are very common in automatic transmissions.
Just throwing this out there.
Is it possible that either the oil pickup spacer was not installed or had an air leak between it and the pump or oil pickup flange?
The APS oil sump is deeper than stock. APS supplies a spacer, longer bolts, and lock washers, to drop the pickup lower to compensate. The instructions also call for only filling the oil to the "low" level on the dipstick when complete.
If the pickup were at stock height and the oil level at the new low level, there was a bad seal in the areas I mentioned, or the bolts backed out, the pump could suck air and definitely starve the engine of oil.
I'm going to have to agree with what else was mentioned. Something is amiss.
*Edit*
I went back and looked at the cover pictures again. The first picture posted, what is the piece of material in the picture down by the timestamp, right under the year? It appears that it is a piece of the sealing ring, and what is on the covers, though damaged, does resemble what I recall them looking like. The rings are rectangular and cut on a diagonal at the ends, so they overlap and seal when installed. It is also possible that the tightness experienced during installation was not the powdercoating in the dowel holes but the sealing ring actually folding over and getting smashed between the cam gear and the protrusion on the cover. This would explain the wear markings on the cover, on the inside of the gear, and the pinched off end of what's left of the sealing ring. By looking at the coating of the RTV and how it appears to be even the whole way around the cover, I believe the cover was in the proper location and all the damage was caused by the sealing ring itself.
I bet if you place that unidentified chunk of plastic next to the pinched off end of the sealing ring in the 3rd picture, you have a match, and your explination of what happened. After you mentioning a mallet was used for installation, I'd bet money on it.
Just throwing this out there.
Is it possible that either the oil pickup spacer was not installed or had an air leak between it and the pump or oil pickup flange?
The APS oil sump is deeper than stock. APS supplies a spacer, longer bolts, and lock washers, to drop the pickup lower to compensate. The instructions also call for only filling the oil to the "low" level on the dipstick when complete.
If the pickup were at stock height and the oil level at the new low level, there was a bad seal in the areas I mentioned, or the bolts backed out, the pump could suck air and definitely starve the engine of oil.
I'm going to have to agree with what else was mentioned. Something is amiss.
*Edit*
I went back and looked at the cover pictures again. The first picture posted, what is the piece of material in the picture down by the timestamp, right under the year? It appears that it is a piece of the sealing ring, and what is on the covers, though damaged, does resemble what I recall them looking like. The rings are rectangular and cut on a diagonal at the ends, so they overlap and seal when installed. It is also possible that the tightness experienced during installation was not the powdercoating in the dowel holes but the sealing ring actually folding over and getting smashed between the cam gear and the protrusion on the cover. This would explain the wear markings on the cover, on the inside of the gear, and the pinched off end of what's left of the sealing ring. By looking at the coating of the RTV and how it appears to be even the whole way around the cover, I believe the cover was in the proper location and all the damage was caused by the sealing ring itself.
I bet if you place that unidentified chunk of plastic next to the pinched off end of the sealing ring in the 3rd picture, you have a match, and your explination of what happened. After you mentioning a mallet was used for installation, I'd bet money on it.
Last edited by BlinkerFluid; 03-31-2009 at 07:42 PM.
04-01-2009, 05:26 AM
#795
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I am not a expert by any means, but common since tells you something is a miss. BOTH cam cover rings failed and you posted that they were both NEW. Lighting doesn't strike in the same place twice. Dig deeper man!
04-01-2009, 06:21 AM
#797
04-01-2009, 06:49 AM
#798
Everyone chill a bit please. I used the word o-ring because that is what shape it was and I'm no mechanic, just a laymans term there...sorry.
Blinkerfuild is correct that the piece you see in the pic (I can't post it again because my office PC bit the dust) is a piece from the cam cover seal (better term
) it was plastic like in texture to me, not rubber and had worked itself all the way down to the pan. The pickup was brand new and had the extension on it when I came down for disassembly. The oil level was correct I am assuming because Frank made a point to make sure I was aware of the low mark being the correct level.
Please remember that Frank is a Nissan master tech and my motor was his 23rd VQ build. If I had wantd to go the method of 3rd party analysis I should have arranged that prior to teardown IMO. I do not believe that Frank and his wife are the kind of people that would lie to one of their best customers in an effort to save face or save money. From the moment of the failure Frank has done nothing other than stand behind his work and was willing to accept responsibility if the failure appeared to be the result of his negligence. My car was only back in his shop for a day and he cleared four days off his schedule to get the motor pulled and dsassembled to find the source of the failure because we all wanted answers. That is the kind of customer service I expect and receive from Hill's Garage.
Again, I am very disappointed this has happened, but Frank has offered a tremendous amount of help in whichever direction I decide to proceed in and I continue to weigh my options and am waiting for confirmation that the heads are shot before reaching a decision.
Blinkerfuild is correct that the piece you see in the pic (I can't post it again because my office PC bit the dust) is a piece from the cam cover seal (better term
) it was plastic like in texture to me, not rubber and had worked itself all the way down to the pan. The pickup was brand new and had the extension on it when I came down for disassembly. The oil level was correct I am assuming because Frank made a point to make sure I was aware of the low mark being the correct level.Please remember that Frank is a Nissan master tech and my motor was his 23rd VQ build. If I had wantd to go the method of 3rd party analysis I should have arranged that prior to teardown IMO. I do not believe that Frank and his wife are the kind of people that would lie to one of their best customers in an effort to save face or save money. From the moment of the failure Frank has done nothing other than stand behind his work and was willing to accept responsibility if the failure appeared to be the result of his negligence. My car was only back in his shop for a day and he cleared four days off his schedule to get the motor pulled and dsassembled to find the source of the failure because we all wanted answers. That is the kind of customer service I expect and receive from Hill's Garage.
Again, I am very disappointed this has happened, but Frank has offered a tremendous amount of help in whichever direction I decide to proceed in and I continue to weigh my options and am waiting for confirmation that the heads are shot before reaching a decision.
04-01-2009, 07:17 AM
#799
damn man, sorry to hear all the bad luck youve been having. Im sure frank and dave will figure it out. +1 on thier ethics &customer service, there the only people i trust to work on my car at this point
Sorry to hear Cass,
Hopefully it gets worked out in a timely manner
Hopefully it gets worked out in a timely manner
very sorry to hear that
im glad both guys are stand up guys and are gonna take care of it
im glad both guys are stand up guys and are gonna take care of it
That sucks bro. I hope things turn out for the best.
what doesn't kill ya makes ya stronger, tough one man good luck on the diagnosis, i don't know frank but after reading this (whole entire thread, good read though)thread he seems like he will take care of it.
Sounds like oil pump issue with no oil pressure??? Waiting to hear bad news sucks. Sorry man. The struggle will make the end result all the sweeter though. Hang tough.
egh yeah.... i wasn't going to say anything though..... I feel for you man....if it makes you feel any better, at least you didn't get by a christmas tree (a very large christmas tree)
Sucks that something else has come up on this motor. I'm sure Frank will get you up and running in no time.
DAMN... Sorry to hear about the recent turn in events. Our build projects have been anything but smooth.
Hell, I'm not that far from York. I could just come over and knock on it with a sledge hammer. When it knocks, I'll knock back.
Man I feel your pain. I had similar luck with a motor of mine a long time ago (4cyl dsm). Just stick it out - its worth it! (Plus I really want to see what your turbo set-up will make)
Crap, this sucks. New motors just shouldn't come apart like this but murphy has followed many on this forum around for years so it happens to the best of us.
Hey Cass, everyone that's been reading this thread from the start is standing beside you right now. Sounds like you've got a good builder behind you (and wife for that matter), that's 99.9999999% of the struggle especially when things go wrong.
The hardest part on the car owner in times like this is having the patience to see it through. Just concentrate on being calm (scotch helps..., after lent for you however),...
Don't ever give up,... the car can never win without you now. Plus, if you did give up then 6 months later you'll start all over again anyway, lol. Once you've got the bug, you've got it forever.
Hey Cass, everyone that's been reading this thread from the start is standing beside you right now. Sounds like you've got a good builder behind you (and wife for that matter), that's 99.9999999% of the struggle especially when things go wrong.
The hardest part on the car owner in times like this is having the patience to see it through. Just concentrate on being calm (scotch helps..., after lent for you however),...
Don't ever give up,... the car can never win without you now. Plus, if you did give up then 6 months later you'll start all over again anyway, lol. Once you've got the bug, you've got it forever.
All i can say is damn Cass for bad luck.All i can hope full is some good luck now that spring is here.
Damn Cass, wish you the best and some GOOD luck to come your way really soon.. I know what it feels like to not touch your baby for 4months.. Sux.. We all have problems when we TT/Build like this.. Just working kinks on our setups..
Sorry to hear Cass
I'm scared to build my motor cause of horror of stories like these.
At least you being taken care off.
I'm scared to build my motor cause of horror of stories like these.
At least you being taken care off.
damn...that sucks. I new that oil pressure was low and the engine sounded a lilttle off...
Man that really sucks.... I feel your pain. Keep us posted!
I hope it is nothing major and your back on the road in no time.
Very sorry to read this.
Let this be a lesson to those that havent learned this yet--->even when using good parts, and good people/shops for projects things can and WILL go wrong. It's the nature of the game, but at the time it's hard to swallow, at least it was for me. In the end, the reward would have made the journey worthwhile my friend....
Good luck, and keep us updated.
Let this be a lesson to those that havent learned this yet--->even when using good parts, and good people/shops for projects things can and WILL go wrong. It's the nature of the game, but at the time it's hard to swallow, at least it was for me. In the end, the reward would have made the journey worthwhile my friend....
Good luck, and keep us updated.
I'm gettin scared to boost. Atleast I know someone with tons of experience if godforbid something goes wrong.. But I guess you gotta pay to play.. Hope it gets fixed soon so your back on the road.. I remember my first car I boosted. I went 3 months of constant fixing before I can take it on the road and drive with no worries.. Then I snapped my axle lol.
I'm there with you too, though I got 1,000 mi. out of my first build before I burried the tachometer and destroyed two rod bearings. Note to self, make sure the rev limiter is properly kicking in before doing a WOT shift next time
wow, this is a case of all show NO go.
-- maybe that was too soon!
good luck with the rebuild. I guess i'd be worried about what else could go wrong with the immense amount of powdercoating you had done.
you going to dump that turbo kit as well and go with a GTM or greddy 20g?
-- maybe that was too soon!
good luck with the rebuild. I guess i'd be worried about what else could go wrong with the immense amount of powdercoating you had done.
you going to dump that turbo kit as well and go with a GTM or greddy 20g?
I don't even know what to say man....
sorry to hear what happened....as already stated go through everything! check and double check.......good luck!
Damn, that really sucks to hear
I've been following this thread for a while now and I was really hoping to hear that a little more bottom-end work and some new cams was all it would take.
I'd love to see this beast on the road and you don't seem like the type to give up but I can't begin to imagine how you're feeling right now.
Best of luck to you bro.
I've been following this thread for a while now and I was really hoping to hear that a little more bottom-end work and some new cams was all it would take.
I'd love to see this beast on the road and you don't seem like the type to give up but I can't begin to imagine how you're feeling right now.
Best of luck to you bro.
WOW bro, im sorry to hear about your loss. IMO you HAVE to finish this build. You have allready been through so much. From buying the "built motor" and having to rebuild it now this..... I know you are dumping a LOT of money in this project but you have gone through all of this and I would hate to see this project not get finished. who all is down for starting a collection for cass (chris I think???). LOL. Good luck man with whatever you decide to do.
I totally feel you man. Last year when my engine somehow sucked up a bunch of water and caused a bent rod, I was thinking about my options... My money was really tight at the time and went over hell and finally decided to do a minimal fix. Now a year later I'm feel like I should've just gone for a more serious build. It's always the "at the moment" financial problem. But if you can pull it through financially, definitely go for what you originally wanted!!! It sux to think back and feel like you didn't finish something and wasted all that money and got nothing out of it.
So Sorry to read this
I am more scared now than ever after reading all of this. My build is so close to being complete and I surly cannot afford a re-build if it goes south.
I truly hope you get through this and have the car of your dreams
I am more scared now than ever after reading all of this. My build is so close to being complete and I surly cannot afford a re-build if it goes south.
I truly hope you get through this and have the car of your dreams
Ive been following this for a while now that suck so much hope things turn out for the best
i like what QuadCam said i would get the stuff checked
i like what QuadCam said i would get the stuff checked
Cass, I posted a new vid to cheer you up..
Hopefully Ill get another few vids done today...
Hopefully Ill get another few vids done today...
+1. Sorry to hear this Chris.
I feel sick for you! As my engine sits waiting for my turbos to come I am starting to worry more and more and this didn't help me. I hope you decide to stick with it and build another engine. It might not be a bad idea to put the stock block in for this summer and run it at 400hp for the summer while you start building another engine and have it ready for next summer. Good luck with what ever you decide.
Good advice. I'm on round 3 myself and have been so frustrated at points that I was literally trying to give my cars away or send them to the junkyard for scrap metal. Take a few weeks or months and decide if you want to keep it. I spent a few months deciding if I wanted to buy a Gallardo or a TT'd Vette and realized that even dumping more money into the Z-Pit I'd save a hell of a lot more than going down any other route and I'm on enough car forums to know that we're not alone in this game.
I'm truly sorry to see this happen to you though man! Complete SUCK!!!!!
I'm truly sorry to see this happen to you though man! Complete SUCK!!!!!
i cant believe i had missed this latest turn of events bud, i had stopped checking out your thread cause i figured you would be close to posting a new final thread. Sorry to see what is happening ...i think you should wait to see what it will take and time on the rebuild before you jump on option 2 while you do 1(as Glex suggested). Then downside is that you pay for work you are doing to redo again, so its more like renting an FI car for the summer.
If its 2-3(max) months then id say just wait and rebuilt it....
If its 2-3(max) months then id say just wait and rebuilt it....
