My Build: The Good, The Bad & The Progress
Although there is no excuse for the rag and that would automatically put puts Mr Hill under the gun here, but is it possible the engine was being pushed to hard and the oil cooked the bearings? Could doing too many pulls without enough cooldown on a dyno? Does mr. dave have logs that show temps and vitals are fine while he's tuning?
From what I see so far, it would appear that neither shop can, without doubt, show that they had no part in the blowup.
From what I see so far, it would appear that neither shop can, without doubt, show that they had no part in the blowup.
Although there is no excuse for the rag and that would automatically put puts Mr Hill under the gun here, but is it possible the engine was being pushed to hard and the oil cooked the bearings? Could doing too many pulls without enough cooldown on a dyno? Does mr. dave have logs that show temps and vitals are fine while he's tuning?
From what I see so far, it would appear that neither shop can, without doubt, show that they had no part in the blowup.
From what I see so far, it would appear that neither shop can, without doubt, show that they had no part in the blowup.
Id almost hate to take this point of view, but in the car game there are no guarantees. You could pay $30K + for a setup and it may last 3000 miles or it may not get to you in running condition ever-as in this case.
After hearing all 3 sides to the story, FT's, Chris, and Franks, I have to say that I can understand from a business perspective as to why the shop owners wouldnt want to assume 100% responsibility, or even split this expensive bill 50/50. I doubt even getting lawyers involved could sway a judge (who doesnt know squat about cars) and only goes off of evidence that one shop is responsible when clearly both made some errors, but nothing is clear with no doubt that "it" caused the failure.
Like I said before I like both shops and respect both men. I feel like both made questionable decisions. In the end Cass you chose to do something that is not recommended and that is go with 2 different shops for such a project-unfortunately you did it twice. Most of the time this can work, in this case it was an epic failure. I dont see you having good successs trying to get either shop or both to pony up money for a rebuild, especially since you will likely choose neither in the future, so they couldnt even help you with something like labor.
You may have to take this is a nasty lesson learned, and in the next few days, weeks, months, make a serious decision as to whether or not you will part the car and walk away or do it AGAIN-although right this time.
I dont want this to sound like Im on shops side, if anything Im on your side Cass, but this is my interpretation of the situation.
edit-I wanted to add I agree with I believe it was abui who basically said its easy for people to say the shops should do the right thing and split the bill, but they arent legally responsible to do that. Its easy to say that, but from a business perspective why should either shop not take paying customers for a day or two, work extra hours, etc and spend time on a car that isnt just a non-money maker but a loss and work on that when they arent clearly at fault? It sounds nice in a perfect world but thats not reasonable.
After hearing all 3 sides to the story, FT's, Chris, and Franks, I have to say that I can understand from a business perspective as to why the shop owners wouldnt want to assume 100% responsibility, or even split this expensive bill 50/50. I doubt even getting lawyers involved could sway a judge (who doesnt know squat about cars) and only goes off of evidence that one shop is responsible when clearly both made some errors, but nothing is clear with no doubt that "it" caused the failure.
Like I said before I like both shops and respect both men. I feel like both made questionable decisions. In the end Cass you chose to do something that is not recommended and that is go with 2 different shops for such a project-unfortunately you did it twice. Most of the time this can work, in this case it was an epic failure. I dont see you having good successs trying to get either shop or both to pony up money for a rebuild, especially since you will likely choose neither in the future, so they couldnt even help you with something like labor.
You may have to take this is a nasty lesson learned, and in the next few days, weeks, months, make a serious decision as to whether or not you will part the car and walk away or do it AGAIN-although right this time.
I dont want this to sound like Im on shops side, if anything Im on your side Cass, but this is my interpretation of the situation.
edit-I wanted to add I agree with I believe it was abui who basically said its easy for people to say the shops should do the right thing and split the bill, but they arent legally responsible to do that. Its easy to say that, but from a business perspective why should either shop not take paying customers for a day or two, work extra hours, etc and spend time on a car that isnt just a non-money maker but a loss and work on that when they arent clearly at fault? It sounds nice in a perfect world but thats not reasonable.
Last edited by Alberto; Jul 14, 2009 at 04:32 AM.
I'm more optimistic than you Berto about Chris's chances with a lawsuit. It would be one thing if Chris took possession of the car and put a couple miles on it. But since Chris never drove his car an inch the second time around and the car was still in the shops' possession... I find it hard to believe that a judge would rule that Chris is SOL and will be stuck with the bill for a product that was paid for but never delivered.
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; Jul 14, 2009 at 04:38 AM.
Lawyers can make things happen I suppose...just another expense
I said that because while most here arent experts, looking at it from a "whos to blame 100%" POV, I feel the decision cant be made. I guess a judge could hold both shops resonsible to some degree, but I doubt that will cover Chris' entire bill to do it again. By the time you pay the lawyer, the money you receive wouldnt cover half of it. I may be way off on this, this is just me thinking out loud.
I said that because while most here arent experts, looking at it from a "whos to blame 100%" POV, I feel the decision cant be made. I guess a judge could hold both shops resonsible to some degree, but I doubt that will cover Chris' entire bill to do it again. By the time you pay the lawyer, the money you receive wouldnt cover half of it. I may be way off on this, this is just me thinking out loud.
Last edited by Alberto; Jul 14, 2009 at 04:50 AM.
Although there is no excuse for the rag and that would automatically put puts Mr Hill under the gun here, but is it possible the engine was being pushed to hard and the oil cooked the bearings? Could doing too many pulls without enough cooldown on a dyno? Does mr. dave have logs that show temps and vitals are fine while he's tuning?
From what I see so far, it would appear that neither shop can, without doubt, show that they had no part in the blowup.
From what I see so far, it would appear that neither shop can, without doubt, show that they had no part in the blowup.
Very freakin sad............
A good lawsuit should recoup the money spent on "labor" from all parties which should help send the car to a "proven shop" who can do motor builds and FI installs. Good Luck man the Z community i can assure is closely watching.
A good lawsuit should recoup the money spent on "labor" from all parties which should help send the car to a "proven shop" who can do motor builds and FI installs. Good Luck man the Z community i can assure is closely watching.
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From: Florida
My girlfriend is a lawyer here in Florida and I asked her opinion about what would happen in court. She said (of course), that the jury and judge would have no idea what an engine build, turbo kit, ect consists of and they would see it more as $$$ spent vs. final product. It would really take a good lawyer to make sure the jury/judge could understand or relate it to something for them to decide in either favor. The jury/judge usually will side in the consumers favor when it comes to issues like this.
To add, she wishes it was in Florida because this is her favorite kind of case.
***This is her opinion stated above and by no means the final outcome.***
To add, she wishes it was in Florida because this is her favorite kind of case.
***This is her opinion stated above and by no means the final outcome.***
Sad to see things getting to this point. I'm hoping to see more will be found from the tear down so the actual cause of failure could be pin pointed. Lawsuit just sounds very nasty and will cost everyone (Including Chris himself) extra money.
How many 600+hp engines has mr dave tuned? Can you imagine how much more heat a 600+hp motor is dissapating that your typical 300-400hp build? Did he monitor oil temperature while he tuned? Are there any logs to show what was going on? With such an expensive EMS I would hope that there are detailed logs.
I'm in for analysis on the blowup oil. It could be very telling if the analysis shows the oil was really protecting anything or not.
Last edited by djamps; Jul 14, 2009 at 06:46 AM.
What is the probability that lack of oil pressure was due to overheated oil and complete loss of viscosity? At this point the oil would have been cooked and not protecting much even after it cools down.
How many 600+hp engines has mr dave tuned? Can you imagine how much more heat a 600+hp motor is dissapating that your typical 300-400hp build? Did he monitor oil temperature while he tuned? Are there any logs to show what was going on? With such an expensive EMS I would hope that there are detailed logs.
I AM NOT taking sides! Just asking some Q's that I haven't seen asked yet.
How many 600+hp engines has mr dave tuned? Can you imagine how much more heat a 600+hp motor is dissapating that your typical 300-400hp build? Did he monitor oil temperature while he tuned? Are there any logs to show what was going on? With such an expensive EMS I would hope that there are detailed logs.
I AM NOT taking sides! Just asking some Q's that I haven't seen asked yet.
Last edited by nyqueenz; Jul 14, 2009 at 05:58 AM.
If Chris wins this lawsuit (which is a slam dunk IMO and with squadmates that I have discussed this with), there is a good chance the judge/jury could order the defendants to pay for the plaintiff's legal fees. It is not uncommon for the plaintiff to be awarded attorney fees as part of the settlement. There is also a multitude of case law and precedence regarding business's obligations when providing products and/or services to consumers. Chris is not facing an uphill battle of uncharted territories.
Its already been said but its worth noting again. Jury's almost always side with the consumer. Especially since Cass never even drove the car.
Berto makes some great points and I will add one that might have been overshadowed. That being word of mouth, reputation and new customers. I doubt Frank will have a chance to prove himself anytime soon with a new major high-horsepower build like Cass'. I don't know who in their right mind would have him build them a motor at this point.
Berto makes some great points and I will add one that might have been overshadowed. That being word of mouth, reputation and new customers. I doubt Frank will have a chance to prove himself anytime soon with a new major high-horsepower build like Cass'. I don't know who in their right mind would have him build them a motor at this point.
ANother question is... so say if a lawsuit really happens. How long does it take for it to be scheduled to be discussed in court? Will the car be sitting for another 5, 6 months?
its already been said but its worth noting again. Jury's almost always side with the consumer. Especially since cass never even drove the car.
berto makes some great points and i will add one that might have been overshadowed. That being word of mouth, reputation and new customers. I doubt frank will have a chance to prove himself anytime soon with a new major high-horsepower build like cass'. I don't know who in their right mind would have him build them a motor at this point.
berto makes some great points and i will add one that might have been overshadowed. That being word of mouth, reputation and new customers. I doubt frank will have a chance to prove himself anytime soon with a new major high-horsepower build like cass'. I don't know who in their right mind would have him build them a motor at this point.
Its already been said but its worth noting again. Jury's almost always side with the consumer. Especially since Cass never even drove the car.
Berto makes some great points and I will add one that might have been overshadowed. That being word of mouth, reputation and new customers. I doubt Frank will have a chance to prove himself anytime soon with a new major high-horsepower build like Cass'. I don't know who in their right mind would have him build them a motor at this point.
Berto makes some great points and I will add one that might have been overshadowed. That being word of mouth, reputation and new customers. I doubt Frank will have a chance to prove himself anytime soon with a new major high-horsepower build like Cass'. I don't know who in their right mind would have him build them a motor at this point.
400-500whp do not apply...
I think Cass will win a lawsuit but the downsides are delay, broken relationships, and the additional legal expenses. If Cass can document that he made every attempt to avoid a lawsuit and tried to reach resolution, he will have gone a long way to not having to pay the legal expenses. Dave's degree of cooperation will also be looked upon favorably. Frank Hill is going to get stuck with the bill given his response in this thread if he does not clarify his position or attempt to seek resolution between shops. Both shops should agree to 3rd party arbitration for a settlement and skip the court room hassles. It'll be a win for all.
Last edited by rcdash; Jul 14, 2009 at 06:45 AM.
I think Cass will win a lawsuit but the downsides are delay, broken relationships, and the additional legal expenses. If Cass can document that he made every attempt to avoid a lawsuit and tried to reach resolution, he will have gone a long way to not having to pay the legal expenses. Dave's degree of cooperation will also be looked upon favorably. Frank Hill is going to get stuck with the bill given his response in this thread if he does not clarify his position or attempt to seek resolution between shops. Both shops should agree to 3rd party arbitration for a settlement and skip the court room hassles. It'll be a win for all.
I think Cass will win a lawsuit but the downsides are delay, broken relationships, and the additional legal expenses. If Cass can document that he made every attempt to avoid a lawsuit and tried to reach resolution, he will have gone a long way to not having to pay the legal expenses. Dave's degree of cooperation will also be looked upon favorably. Frank Hill is going to get stuck with the bill given his response in this thread if he does not clarify his position or attempt to seek resolution between shops. Both shops should agree to 3rd party arbitration for a settlement and skip the court room hassles. It'll be a win for all.