Turbo Issues - What would you do??
My build didn't start off being what it has become. I had to fix certain things and then it just kind of spiraled out of control. Also, I already had some of the components from the APS Extreme kit since I had a TN Single before this kit. I did some research before purchase and was seeing posts about 450+whp on stock blocks and 12ish psi so I figured that a fully built motor with headwork and meth would get me 600+whp.
I was in a similar situation in the middle of my first build. At first all I wanted was the TN kit maxed. As the day grew nearer that I had the option of putting in another kit, I realistically chose the Greddy option. TRUST me I know how hard it is to swallow the price of another kit/snails, after the bill for a build, but I am VERY happy I did it right the first time. Not one day has passed where I have regretted the Greddy kit.
I feel for you, but remember it will be more expensive to swap later, better to do it now, even if it means waiting longer to have the $$$/get back on the road.
I feel for you, but remember it will be more expensive to swap later, better to do it now, even if it means waiting longer to have the $$$/get back on the road.
I want to do it right the first time, but also feel unsatisfied about not knowing the true deal on the turbos that came with the kit. Its been so long since I drove my car (Thanksgiving Day) it would feel fast in stock form right now.
Last edited by Cass007; Feb 12, 2009 at 05:09 PM.
At this rate Im gonna be built and back up and running before you 
J/k But I agree with everyone else that it would be easier to do it now than later. And my buddy goes to blouch for his Evo stuff and they do good work. So you're in good hands with them.
J/k But I agree with everyone else that it would be easier to do it now than later. And my buddy goes to blouch for his Evo stuff and they do good work. So you're in good hands with them.
.I finally pulled Dave from F:T out from under a car today and he knew exactly who I was speaking about. Dave also offerred without prompting that he has seen these turbos make power, but he said that I would be at the very upper limit with 600whp and that number may not come from his heartbreaker, but possibly on a DJ. He also explained that as power grows my intercooler may become a limiting factor, but the meth will help - lots of variables it seems.
Interesting as well was that Dave said exactly what bryan@Z1 said in Jay'Z's thread - the internals are Garrett, but everything else is made somewhere else.
Dave always puts me at ease, and I do feel more secure now, but I still think it will be worth the ride to confirm what has been said and see what upgrades can be made and how much they would cost.
The real deal!!
I have analysis of my APS turbos from the newer TT Tuner kit. This was done by Blouch Turbo in Lebanon, PA - they are an authorized Garrett distributor and know what they are talking about when it comes to Garrett products.
Mike Blouch and another guy at the shop both confirmed that the APS turbos contain zero Garrett internals. They said that these turbos are a knock off of the Garrett GT2860RS, but with journal bearings instead of BB. They were able to point to specific hardware that Garrett uses on all their products as well as the fact that the markings on these new APS turbos indicate that they are hand balanced and Garrett's are machine balanced and show a completely different type of tooling mark. Both of these guys are aware that I was planning on making this information public and said that they have no issue with putting their professional name behind these findings.
I was told that these turbos are more than likely rated at appx 350hp each (crank - not wheel) and in their opinion would most likely reach a choke point where the air cannot be pushed through fast enough to realize their full potential. That being said, they did say they were well made and will make power, just not the power I am looking for, so here are my upgrade options:
1. Upgrade to a BB design keeping everything else the same - $791.54 ea. - 350hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT2860RS
2. Upgrade to BB and Garrett internals - $879.29 ea. - 400hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT2871R (this is basically the original BB APS TT kit turbos)
3. Upgrade to BB and larger Garrett internals - $982.89 ea. - 440hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT3071R - this is on par with a Greddy turbo and is very similar to the APS Extreme turbos - THESE WILL MAKE 700+WHP
I'm thinking option 3 -
Again I am not trying to cause any drama with shops or vendors, I'm mearly trying to reach my goal and help clear up some of the confusion surrounding these turbos. If any shop/vendor wants to take issue with what I have found I suggest that you contact Blouch Turbos directly and ask for Mike, he can speak intelligently with you on the specifics of what he saw and how he came to his conclusion. All I know is turbos make me go fast, are pretty when they are new, and cost a lot to repair/upgrade.
Mike Blouch and another guy at the shop both confirmed that the APS turbos contain zero Garrett internals. They said that these turbos are a knock off of the Garrett GT2860RS, but with journal bearings instead of BB. They were able to point to specific hardware that Garrett uses on all their products as well as the fact that the markings on these new APS turbos indicate that they are hand balanced and Garrett's are machine balanced and show a completely different type of tooling mark. Both of these guys are aware that I was planning on making this information public and said that they have no issue with putting their professional name behind these findings.
I was told that these turbos are more than likely rated at appx 350hp each (crank - not wheel) and in their opinion would most likely reach a choke point where the air cannot be pushed through fast enough to realize their full potential. That being said, they did say they were well made and will make power, just not the power I am looking for, so here are my upgrade options:
1. Upgrade to a BB design keeping everything else the same - $791.54 ea. - 350hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT2860RS
2. Upgrade to BB and Garrett internals - $879.29 ea. - 400hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT2871R (this is basically the original BB APS TT kit turbos)
3. Upgrade to BB and larger Garrett internals - $982.89 ea. - 440hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT3071R - this is on par with a Greddy turbo and is very similar to the APS Extreme turbos - THESE WILL MAKE 700+WHP
I'm thinking option 3 -
Again I am not trying to cause any drama with shops or vendors, I'm mearly trying to reach my goal and help clear up some of the confusion surrounding these turbos. If any shop/vendor wants to take issue with what I have found I suggest that you contact Blouch Turbos directly and ask for Mike, he can speak intelligently with you on the specifics of what he saw and how he came to his conclusion. All I know is turbos make me go fast, are pretty when they are new, and cost a lot to repair/upgrade.
I would go with option number 2 for a well balanced mid 600rhwp car.
Also the GT2871R is very similar to the GReddy 18G, as far as power output goes.
Thank you for taking the time to confirm this, I am sure many members will benefit from it.
-George
GT Motorsports
Also the GT2871R is very similar to the GReddy 18G, as far as power output goes.
Thank you for taking the time to confirm this, I am sure many members will benefit from it.
-George
GT Motorsports
I don't know about rebuilt turbos, especially at that cost. Do the math if you sell the kit and get another kit and see if it makes sense. I agree option 2 if you do upgrade and want 600 whp though.
A big thanks for doing the research and making it public. Kudos.
A big thanks for doing the research and making it public. Kudos.
Confirmed info thanks to Cass........ I wouldnt wanna take one for the team if I were you Cass...... Not that type of risk/wait/downtime!!!!
Last edited by Jay'Z; Feb 13, 2009 at 04:18 PM.
Just to clarify, I really like my APS kit - except the turbos. In reality, I got such a great deal on this kit through Z1motorsports that although the turbos are disappointing, I can upgrade to the performance level of the APS Extreme kit with a full Garrett turbo setup (internals) and still be under the cost for a new Greddy TT tuner kit.
I will swap out the internals and make the power I want and keep my build on schedule as well. This has been a setback, but I knew it wouldn't be all sunshine and roses through this process. I am just happy that I may have been able to help out some other members along the way.
The APS TT tuner kit is fine right out of the box if your max power is 500whp or less.
I will swap out the internals and make the power I want and keep my build on schedule as well. This has been a setback, but I knew it wouldn't be all sunshine and roses through this process. I am just happy that I may have been able to help out some other members along the way.
The APS TT tuner kit is fine right out of the box if your max power is 500whp or less.
Last edited by Cass007; Feb 13, 2009 at 08:35 PM.
Hey Cass,
Can you confirm that standard Garrett turbos will bolt up to APS exhaust manifolds? I was under the impression that they could not, but would like to know for sure...
Can you confirm that standard Garrett turbos will bolt up to APS exhaust manifolds? I was under the impression that they could not, but would like to know for sure...
Thanks for taking the hit Cass
better to do it now than when mounted
I also was inquiring about the APS Tuner kit awhile back and
information was real murky from various dealers which
made me very weary about the kit apart from the fact
that they changed from BB to journal bearings. I'm glad that you
got hard facts to back up your assumptions.
I'm just glad I didn't sell my APS TT kit to get the tuner
just so I could get external wastegates.
I'm still looking to upgrade in the future
to a GTM Kit next time around.
Hopefully I see you around I'm only one state over.
better to do it now than when mounted
I also was inquiring about the APS Tuner kit awhile back and
information was real murky from various dealers which
made me very weary about the kit apart from the fact
that they changed from BB to journal bearings. I'm glad that you
got hard facts to back up your assumptions.
I'm just glad I didn't sell my APS TT kit to get the tuner
just so I could get external wastegates.
I'm still looking to upgrade in the future
to a GTM Kit next time around.
Hopefully I see you around I'm only one state over.