APS twin turbo problem
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 173
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From: tx
Okaaay.. wtf. you guys scarin me. I've had my kit since Late november. I'm 368whp/350 tq on Dyno Dynamics. It pulls pretty hard.. Only problem I've had is that my pipe blew off.. twice. I've since gotten it adjusted and double clamped.
I had my kit installed at Function Tuned in MD. Bought it from Z1. Honestly not having any major issues. But, I'll bring this issue up with Dave at Function.
I had my kit installed at Function Tuned in MD. Bought it from Z1. Honestly not having any major issues. But, I'll bring this issue up with Dave at Function.
Newbie
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 88
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From: Greece
It's a pitty though that BB turbos were replaced by journals. What the commercial department was thinking?
btw, i see that your motor was builtzmotors. good luck with all that. mine lasted a whole 3 weeks and 500 miles at 12psi before it burnt 3.5 quarts of oil and fawked up a rod. 
sharif broke it down and would not rebuild it cause the tolerances were waaaay out of spec. and before you accuse him of making that crap up, he donated a block to rebuild.
sharif broke it down and would not rebuild it cause the tolerances were waaaay out of spec. and before you accuse him of making that crap up, he donated a block to rebuild.
, but, my engine is just runing fine with good power.i have Darton sleevs and i used 2 turbo kits on it, 500whp no issues.
1.5 year now and everything is great
Tod did a great job for me, that time when he was working with GTM machine shop Builtzmotors was a great shop, but after that i dunno whats happend for him.
my block and DARTON sleevs was installd by GTM, allso all my parts was balanced by GTM.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 66
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From: Maryland
But that's not the point.. I want to know that my kit will have longevity.
Okaaay.. wtf. you guys scarin me. I've had my kit since Late november. I'm 368whp/350 tq on Dyno Dynamics. It pulls pretty hard.. Only problem I've had is that my pipe blew off.. twice. I've since gotten it adjusted and double clamped.
I had my kit installed at Function Tuned in MD. Bought it from Z1. Honestly not having any major issues. But, I'll bring this issue up with Dave at Function.
I had my kit installed at Function Tuned in MD. Bought it from Z1. Honestly not having any major issues. But, I'll bring this issue up with Dave at Function.
You should ask superchrgedg what his Greddy numbers were on Dave's DD for comparison.
well sorry for that bro , but, my engine is just runing fine with good power.
i have Darton sleevs and i used 2 turbo kits on it, 500whp no issues.
1.5 year now and everything is great
Tod did a great job for me, that time when he was working with GTM machine shop Builtzmotors was a great shop, but after that i dunno whats happend for him.
my block and DARTON sleevs was installd by GTM, allso all my parts was balanced by GTM.
, but, my engine is just runing fine with good power.i have Darton sleevs and i used 2 turbo kits on it, 500whp no issues.
1.5 year now and everything is great
Tod did a great job for me, that time when he was working with GTM machine shop Builtzmotors was a great shop, but after that i dunno whats happend for him.
my block and DARTON sleevs was installd by GTM, allso all my parts was balanced by GTM.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
From: tx
No man.. the power is perfect. I'm probably about 415/400 on a Dyno Jet. The car pulls hard. I was actually about to post some 0-60 times that I got using an iphone app called "test track" before I saw this thread. Quarter mile I'm getting at least mid 12's.
But that's not the point.. I want to know that my kit will have longevity.
But that's not the point.. I want to know that my kit will have longevity.
IMHO, you aren't being realistic. With a built motor, you are dropping compression which will require more boost to make up the difference. A stock block is going to make more power at the same boost levels... thus, a stock block probably could reach 600whp (but might not last longer than the dyno pull itself) while a built block might struggle to make that same 600.
^^^ +1
For the guys that already have this kit, you should be able to make 400-450rwhp Dynojet, the problem with the kit is if you want to make more power, and the reliability is unknown at this point.
The stock block guys will be able to extract more power out of this kit than the built motor guys due to lower compression, as Zivman stated.
-George
GT Motorsports
For the guys that already have this kit, you should be able to make 400-450rwhp Dynojet, the problem with the kit is if you want to make more power, and the reliability is unknown at this point.
The stock block guys will be able to extract more power out of this kit than the built motor guys due to lower compression, as Zivman stated.
-George
GT Motorsports
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
From: Maryland
Yes, I'm stock all the way. And my aim was 370-380whp. On Dave's DD I'm 368. DJ should be in the low 400whp range.
I'm pretty new to all of this, learning as I go.. Perhaps it's your tune? Could you have any air leaks? I'm running a borla 2.25 exhaust, and I'm probably actually losing 15+hp that I could gain with a 3 inch exhaust. For me, the power is perfect though.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
From: tx
Yes, I'm stock all the way. And my aim was 370-380whp. On Dave's DD I'm 368. DJ should be in the low 400whp range.
I'm pretty new to all of this, learning as I go.. Perhaps it's your tune? Could you have any air leaks? I'm running a borla 2.25 exhaust, and I'm probably actually losing 15+hp that I could gain with a 3 inch exhaust. For me, the power is perfect though.
I'm pretty new to all of this, learning as I go.. Perhaps it's your tune? Could you have any air leaks? I'm running a borla 2.25 exhaust, and I'm probably actually losing 15+hp that I could gain with a 3 inch exhaust. For me, the power is perfect though.
Im on stock tune, no leaks and Im running hks hi power with jwt clutch and flyweel.
shops with bad Reputation
IMHO, you aren't being realistic. With a built motor, you are dropping compression which will require more boost to make up the difference. A stock block is going to make more power at the same boost levels... thus, a stock block probably could reach 600whp (but might not last longer than the dyno pull itself) while a built block might struggle to make that same 600.
I am not saying a pound for pound boost comparison, I am saying I expected more out of the turbos before they maxed out. Maybe I am being unrealistic, but I am paying the price for it in the end - $1965.00 to upgrade turbos to get the power I want.
Myself and others were told in vendor sale threads that we could expect the same level of performance from the journal bearing turbos that came from the BB turbos. This certainly appears to not be the case.
IMHO, you aren't being realistic. With a built motor, you are dropping compression which will require more boost to make up the difference. A stock block is going to make more power at the same boost levels... thus, a stock block probably could reach 600whp (but might not last longer than the dyno pull itself) while a built block might struggle to make that same 600.
C'mon now. You and I both know that the original APS kit was capable of 600whp on a built motor with the right supporting mods (as are Greddy and JWT 700bb). So I don't think Cass007 was being unrealistic at all.The APS site advertized their original kit as having "two hearts", both capable of producing 400 (crank) horsepower. This new version is supposed to be equal to the original with the only difference being that the turbos are journal bearing instead of ball bearing. It is becoming blatantly obvious that the new version is not equal to the original and is significantly less capable.
I don't think the new APS kit is a good choice for stock block builds either. I say this because the kit has insufficient capability for increased power without modification. Look how many owners start with a stock block build in the 360-415whp range, but eventually decide to build the motor and up the boost for more power. Boost is addictive. Greddy, JWT, GTM, PowerLab, etc. are great on a stock block yet are all capable of reliably making 500-600+whp with a built motor without any modifications to the turbos. This kit new APS kit is not.
IMO this new version by APS is a double FAIL and is just plain inferior to the original as well as EVERYTHING ELSE currently available on the market (with the exceptions of Turbonetics and the Turbonator
).
Originally Posted by Cass007
So people with Greddy kits and the old BB APS TT kits should not expect to be able to make 600+whp if their motor will handle it? I thought that was standard TT territory if you have a built motor.
I am not saying a pound for pound boost comparison, I am saying I expected more out of the turbos before they maxed out. Maybe I am being unrealistic, but I am paying the price for it in the end - $1965.00 to upgrade turbos to get the power I want.
Myself and others were told in vendor sale threads that we could expect the same level of performance from the journal bearing turbos that came from the BB turbos. This certainly appears to not be the case.
I am not saying a pound for pound boost comparison, I am saying I expected more out of the turbos before they maxed out. Maybe I am being unrealistic, but I am paying the price for it in the end - $1965.00 to upgrade turbos to get the power I want.
Myself and others were told in vendor sale threads that we could expect the same level of performance from the journal bearing turbos that came from the BB turbos. This certainly appears to not be the case.
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Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; Feb 16, 2009 at 02:53 PM.
^^^ thanks Rude. I'm getting tired of saying the same things over an over, so I will just let it go now. I am upgrading and moving on.
- I guess I can forget about getting any money on the part out now - LOL.
I don't think the new APS kit is a good choice for stock block builds either. I say this because the kit has insufficient capability for increased power without modification. Look how many owners start with a stock block build in the 360-415whp range, but eventually decide to build the motor and up the boost for more power. Boost is addictive. Greddy, JWT, GTM, PowerLab, etc. are great on a stock block yet are all capable of reliably making 500-600+whp with a built motor without any modifications to the turbos. This kit new APS kit is not.
IMO this new version by APS is a double FAIL and is just plain inferior to the original as well as EVERYTHING ELSE currently available on the market (with the exceptions of Turbonetics and the Turbonator).
IMO this new version by APS is a double FAIL and is just plain inferior to the original as well as EVERYTHING ELSE currently available on the market (with the exceptions of Turbonetics and the Turbonator).
- I guess I can forget about getting any money on the part out now - LOL.
So people with Greddy kits and the old BB APS TT kits should not expect to be able to make 600+whp if their motor will handle it? I thought that was standard TT territory if you have a built motor.
I am not saying a pound for pound boost comparison, I am saying I expected more out of the turbos before they maxed out. Maybe I am being unrealistic, but I am paying the price for it in the end - $1965.00 to upgrade turbos to get the power I want.
Myself and others were told in vendor sale threads that we could expect the same level of performance from the journal bearing turbos that came from the BB turbos. This certainly appears to not be the case.
I am not saying a pound for pound boost comparison, I am saying I expected more out of the turbos before they maxed out. Maybe I am being unrealistic, but I am paying the price for it in the end - $1965.00 to upgrade turbos to get the power I want.
Myself and others were told in vendor sale threads that we could expect the same level of performance from the journal bearing turbos that came from the BB turbos. This certainly appears to not be the case.
What I can tell you is that 600 whp on the BB kit was not all that easy to get to... doable, yes, but maximumsport (Chris) was really the only person I can think of to do it in on the boards.... and that was on a dynojet. Like I said, 600whp on a stock compression motor will be MUCH easier than one with 8.5:1 compression. I know you are not looking for pound for pound comparison, but asking about the potential is essentially the same thing. Let's say the turbos can flow X amount of air at a max effeciency of say 19 psi. On a stock block, that 19 psi might equate to 615 whp, but on a 8.5:1 motor it might equate to only 550 whp.
I don't know what was "told" to you during your buying research, but I think the capabilities of just about every kit was pretty well documented in this section of the forum. Why don't you think the journal bearing turbos will make the power? Are they smaller than the previous gen BB turbos? Or just that they use a journal bearing (bushing) vs BB? I am pretty sure the thought on APS' part was that greddy uses journal bearing turbos, why couldn't APS use a comparable type of turbo and maybe increase margins or offer better pricing...
copied from another thread to save time:
I have solved the turbo mystery surrounding the newer APS TT Tuner kit journal bearing turbos.
I have analysis of my APS turbos from the newer TT Tuner kit. This was done by Blouch Turbo in Lebanon, PA - they are an authorized Garrett distributor and know what they are talking about when it comes to Garrett products.
Mike Blouch and another guy at the shop both confirmed that the APS turbos contain zero Garrett internals. They said that these turbos are a knock off of the Garrett GT2860RS, but with journal bearings instead of BB. They were able to point to specific hardware that Garrett uses on all their products as well as the fact that the markings on these new APS turbos indicate that they are hand balanced and Garrett's are machine balanced and show a completely different type of tooling mark. Both of these guys are aware that I was planning on making this information public and said that they have no issue with putting their professional name behind these findings.
I was told that these turbos are more than likely rated at appx 350hp each (crank - not wheel) and in their opinion would most likely reach a choke point where the air cannot be pushed through fast enough to realize their full potential. That being said, they did say they were well made and will make power, just not the power I am looking for, so here are my upgrade options:
1. Upgrade to a BB design keeping everything else the same - $791.54 ea. - 350hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT2860RS
2. Upgrade to BB and Garrett internals - $879.29 ea. - 400hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT2871R (this is basically the original BB APS TT kit turbos)
3. Upgrade to BB and larger Garrett internals - $982.89 ea. - 440hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT3071R - this is on par with a Greddy turbo and is very similar to the APS Extreme turbos - THESE WILL MAKE 700+WHP
I have analysis of my APS turbos from the newer TT Tuner kit. This was done by Blouch Turbo in Lebanon, PA - they are an authorized Garrett distributor and know what they are talking about when it comes to Garrett products.
Mike Blouch and another guy at the shop both confirmed that the APS turbos contain zero Garrett internals. They said that these turbos are a knock off of the Garrett GT2860RS, but with journal bearings instead of BB. They were able to point to specific hardware that Garrett uses on all their products as well as the fact that the markings on these new APS turbos indicate that they are hand balanced and Garrett's are machine balanced and show a completely different type of tooling mark. Both of these guys are aware that I was planning on making this information public and said that they have no issue with putting their professional name behind these findings.
I was told that these turbos are more than likely rated at appx 350hp each (crank - not wheel) and in their opinion would most likely reach a choke point where the air cannot be pushed through fast enough to realize their full potential. That being said, they did say they were well made and will make power, just not the power I am looking for, so here are my upgrade options:
1. Upgrade to a BB design keeping everything else the same - $791.54 ea. - 350hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT2860RS
2. Upgrade to BB and Garrett internals - $879.29 ea. - 400hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT2871R (this is basically the original BB APS TT kit turbos)
3. Upgrade to BB and larger Garrett internals - $982.89 ea. - 440hp rating and comparable to a Garrett GT3071R - this is on par with a Greddy turbo and is very similar to the APS Extreme turbos - THESE WILL MAKE 700+WHP
Ziv, there have been several anecdotal reports over the past week that the kits are not making the same power as the original APS turbos (350-400 whp max on built motors, 450 on stock motors).
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