srobert910

so how will you know how far you can take it? I don't know anything about tuning except for I want someone experienced doing it. I don't have anything against you or your company, it just seems like you're asking for alot of trust from someone, with very little return.

SSR Engineering

Check out this a/f chart and then you can determine how hard we were pushing the car. The car gained nearly 100WHP over stock output and as you can see the dyno runs short about 700RPM. We let off at 5500 because the car was producing too much power.



As you can see the A/F Ratio was 10:1, then leaned out up top to an ideal mixture. The boost pressure along with the a/f ratio is extremely conservative.

"How will we know how far we can take it"

A)We've done alot of work on VQ30DE, and the VQ line up before so we are familiar with the motor, and its predecessor and as well we are doing work on a 3.5 altima and maxima. The QR is a new line-up along with both the QR20 and QR25, we were the FIRST people to find the limits of the stock motor.

We base our ideal HP ratings to 50% of the stock output since that is extremely conservative and then tune from there. (350WHP)

srobert910

so would the donor car's owner be able to watch you tune the car? It only seems like it would be fair, since you'd be using their $30K car.

SSR Engineering

yes of course, its not like we are taking your car away and putting a mechanics lean on it lol. You can stop by and check out the other projects as well.

SSR Engineering

lol

BlackNissan350z

iTrader: (1)

should i ask how you know my name or my line of work?

Rama

One thing to know about the spec v is that it is very sensitive and it is more of a NA engine than turbo engine like the SR20 that can be easily boosted. Notice how you don't see many QR25's boosted. It can be done but it is easy to mess up. But as far as a legal document goes just take pics of the car from different angles once it arrives at the shop then compare pics to what you have before you leave the shop therefore something that it looks the and operates the same no big deal if it doesn't then handle business this shouldn't be a scary thing for either party. CYA, cover your **** should go for both parties involved. Because just as much as SSR could mess up your car and screw you. Someone could turn around and do the same thing to them claiming they did something they didn't or that something was their fault when it really isn't. Gotta look at both sides of this.

WashUJon

Yeah, that comment was so unethical that I don't know where to start. No ethics or legal accountability/responsibility and they expect someone to trust them with their car.

He says he gaurantees his work but then he made the Sentra owner pay for the short block...

BlackNissan350z

iTrader: (1)

actually the sentra owner had all intentions in building a new motor compltely built for boost, so he had the short block, he had all intentions of "pushin the limits" of the car...i think it might be a bit more expensive in a vq though

spf4000

He probably doesn't know the meaning of the word, "guarantee."

SSR Engineering

You know it's one thing to fix it if it's our fault its a totally different thing to fix it if it breaks do to a factory error. If your rods suck, there's nothing we can do to prevent it. It's all apart of the modification game, you take risks. Now obviously some of you don't want to take risks so keep your cars stock and then you won't have to worry about anything. Put an Injen CAI on your car and tell them to pay for the damages you inflicted because you choose to modify your car and you sucked water in your engine.
So tell me, whats the risk of being the donor car? If we break it due to detonation sure we'll warranty it. Why wouldn't we, if we didn't we wouldn't have faith in our work and we wouldn't be doing this.

We don't have to warranty your car and its quite absurd to warranty a factory default if it does break. Like I said if it broke due to something WE did wrong then yes we will honor it. But for those of you that are worried about breaking your car stop beating a dead horse, obviously you don't have intentions on pursuing any means of forced induction.

jcv

Uh, SSR you as the designer of a system would seem to have an obligation to keep the system within the design limits of the car. I think that's what most customers would reasonably expect.

That's not a design defect from the factory you encountered with the Sentra, it's called part of the design envelope and anything you sell should keep the car within it. Otherwise, you should advise your customers of the changes they need to make AHEAD of time-not after. Plenty of tuners can design ill-conceived packages to overload and blow your engine. The REAL engineering skill is doing one that achieves max output without problems.

SSR Engineering

JCV your only right to an extent, and yes we "shoot for a limit" and that would be 50% of stock output which is extremely conservative, almost to conservative. Thats what happened with our sentra. stock dyno 145 or so and then at 5.5 PSI it hit 242 which was totally unexpected, we were only hoping for maybe 220WHP.

The thing is, were going into this blindfolded, how many companies do you know of with atwin turbo kit on a 350z? i know of 1 which had a decent power number and runs quite well, primarily giving us somewhat of a guideline to go buy. But the numbers greddy hit which was 400WHPish I believe, we'll aim for lower, (350WHPish) and go from there.

jcv

Did you section calcs on rod beam and inertial forces before running, or talk to someone with some knowledge of engine's limits? That's what I'm talking about. I hate nasty surprises that maybe avoided.

SSR Engineering

Ahhh, gotcha, yeah we spoke with JWT, and did our homework on the QR25 which had some intial concercns, rod:stroke ratio, rod size, and thin ring-lands. The only that limits potential power output in our eyes as of now, is the open deck block that is in the VQ35 as opposed to the traditonal solid deck design.

jcv

Metal o-ring the block and be done with it From Smithfields experience the guts are good to 400hp to 450 hp if you control mixture.

SSR Engineering

Right, and from all the hearsay and rumors floating around that video of the one that runs is on a 300+ Shot of N20 making it well over 400WHP

was wesman

iTrader: (7)

Umm....the rods were designed for a NA car, putting over 100 rwhp more on those rods is a failure on your part, the stock parts were never intended to support that sort of power. Explain how it's the stock parts fault that was designed to handle 160rwhp, yet you were putting it through stress of 260rwhp

You broke that rod.......dollars to donuts that rod wouldn't have failed in stock form. It wasn't until you introduced another 100rwhp did it reach it's limits.

I can't fathom how this fact is escaping you.

--wes

SSR Engineering

--wes well maybe you can "fathom" the fact that it pulled 242WHP on the first run, we had no intention of pulling 242WHP on the first run, we were hoping for 220WHP. It isn't our fault the rod broke, why would we be liable for you wanting to turbocharge your car. From all the information we have gathered as opposed to what you know the car should be good to 250WHP, but our customer was equipped with nitrous prior to the turbo installation (Which could have caused stress fractures on the rod and it was weak since installation). And considering the fact that Nissan Rods are both forged and shot peened from the factory we didn't expect them to be this weak.

p.s. the rods were more deisgned on a budget crisis rather then "n/a" if it was an almighty NA rod maybe it would have a shorter rod to stroke ratio or even a lower piston speed.

DmitryZ

I can see both sides of the story on this one. Lets forget about the Sentra for a second and concentrate on 350Z. Our engine is built as an NA motor. Therefore, there is no way that Nissan should be liable if you break a rod or any other part under boost. I agree with Wes. I simply don’t understand how you can say “We broke your engine but only because it wasn’t strong enough to take a little bit of boost so Nissan should be responsible”. Nowhere in the owners manual or repair manual does it say “This engine will take X amount of boost” – Therefore, Nissan should not be liable for any internals that can’t hold up. But I did say that I see both sides of the story.

SSR is right in saying that they cannot guarantee everything. If I go FI route I cannot go to someone and say, “I want to turbo my car” and expect everything to work perfectly. The engine was never designed for such loads and we are in a trial and error territory. All I have to go on is my belief that whoever is doing the work knows what is going on. If my car gets screwed up because the shop can’t tell the difference between their head and their a** they should pay. But, if everything was done correctly (that’s a big assumption) and my rods still break I get the bill. Remember we are in the unknown territory, I am getting a custom tt kit and I asked the shop to do the work (this is the key) – you sponsor your own R&D you pick up the tab if it goes wrong assuming the shop did not screw anything up.

The case at hand is slightly different. I am not asking SSR to do a TT kit. They are asking for a donor car i.e. they want to do R&D on your car. This is a completely different ballgame then if I came to their shop and asked them to do the work. Both parties are in the R&D mode. If I understand the sentra example correctly – the motor blew but SSR worked with the owner to get him a new replacement motor and the owner covered some of the cost $250 ($250 for a brand new motor is really cheap). This is my point – both parties are interested in R&D – both should contribute if anything (and I mean anything excluding obvious shop screw up) goes wrong.

The bottom line is that you need to have a reliable, trustworthy, and knowledgeable shop doing the work. If you have to make them sign papers stating who is responsible for what, what exactly defines a scratch, and take your car to an appraiser before and after, you are way in over your head. SSR is a small company trying to make it. They cant give you all the parts for free, 100% gurantee that everything will work for million miles, and give you a ferrari to drive while they work on your z. Give them a break. On the other hand SSR should make it clear that they will step up if you engine crumbles into pieces and help you get your car back on the road. I am not saying they should pay for 100% of everything - Sentra example works for me provided I did not miss something.

The way I see it is simple: if SSR is a reputable company they will work with you no matter what. Through the good, the bad, and the ugly. If they are scumbags no lawyer will be able to take away the headaches and trouble you will have.

my .02

Dmitry