SSR Engineering

Very well put, you made many valid points. Thats exactly how we are compromising the whole "small shop" thing. By giving you a kit at cost, with free installation and free tuning.

Now remember we pay for the installation and tuning out of pocket, if you have to spend a day on the dyno or 2 days whatever its going to cost you quite a bit of cash. Reason being is once we tune this kit all the "black box" fuel management will be pre-tuned for future kits where you won't have to worry about sitting on a dyno all day tuning your new fuel system.

Also by paying for installation we're covering a good $6-1000 of cost just by waiving that. Then on top of that offering the kit at cost which will save you a good chunk of change as well.

We are working a deal with a G35 Auto, but we'll still need the 350Z.

SSR Engineering

Very well put, you made many valid points. Thats exactly how we are compromising the whole "small shop" thing. By giving you a kit at cost, with free installation and free tuning.

Now remember we pay for the installation and tuning out of pocket, if you have to spend a day on the dyno or 2 days whatever its going to cost you quite a bit of cash. Reason being is once we tune this kit all the "black box" fuel management will be pre-tuned for future kits where you won't have to worry about sitting on a dyno all day tuning your new fuel system.

etx

"Reason being is once we tune this kit all the "black box" fuel management will be pre-tuned for future kits where you won't have to worry about sitting on a dyno all day tuning your new fuel system."
^ This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Any real tuner would know you can't send out a generic fuel map for an aftermarket FI system. I know who I WONT be purchasing a kit from you after that statement.

Nissan made the stock rods in the 300zx NA really nice, they are comparable to aftermarket high HP rods. But I really don't know anything about the VQ35 internals other than it has a sleeved block that is not going to take much boost.

Good luck with your 'Pre-Tuned' kit.

SSR Engineering

Obviously you have no clue on what your talking about. Do you know how the PFC F-CON works? It's pre-tuned... However its $9-1200 Split second offers a unit that will be set to pre-programmed parameters that will be universal at the certain boost level which we provide the kit at...

We do recommend fine tuning it if you desire to go out of our recommended PSI Range.

Hey better yet you can buy Power Enterprises 8000$ which includes "Supreme" Fuel Management yeah you can REALLY tune a kit with just a Fuel Pressure Regulator.... I mean any real tuner wouldn't send a kit out with just an FPR

-Power Enterprise Kit-
400rwps @ 0.5kg/cm2 with PBC (PE’s boost controller)
-PE1420 turbo (2)
-Custom exhaust manifold (2)
-Custom front pipe (2)
-Custom front mount air-to-air intercooler
-Custom high capacity aluminum oil pan
-Custom high capacity fuel pump
-PE injectors (6)
-Fuel pressure regulator
-Air intake – PE Air Impulse II (2)
-Air pipe set
-Oil line set
-PE gaskets

platinumspecv

Who said that it was "generic". Split Second is by far one of the best companies to create air fuel controlers and that is what SSR is using. I have to say......YOU are not a tuner so YOU wouldnt know. It's called a "back box" because its basically not anything branded and they dont want you to know what's in it. It's soo much better than having a Greddy A/F Controller or a Apexi SAFC. Im sure they know what they're doing buddy...you should reconsider what you said about not getting their kit. You won't be sorry.

KP

platinumspecv

and etx..btw u got 0WN3D!!!!

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

The PE does not come with just a FPR - it comes with an additional injector controller - crude? Well, certainly not the most elegant solution, but it has proven itself to work time and time again.

Dmitry Z has made the best post on this topic so far IMHO - its a risk by both parties, and both need to know what they are getting into before getting into it. I have been down this road before on 2 of my cars (and a few years later, I am now an owner of the company). Our shop turbo'd 2 of my previous cars, but I knew going into it that regardless of the expertise or workmanship of the people doing it, there are no guarantees in this game, nor can you expect any. If you are truly serious about going this route, do what people have done of us - ask to speak with references of people whose cars they have done significant work - in our case, back when we were turbo'ing Subaru's, we had quite a few potential customers ask to speak with people whose cars we had previously turbo'd, both Subaru and non Subaru.

No shop is going to pay you for use of your car - if thats what it takes to get you on board, the honestly, you are not ready for FI. I mean, there are FI "kits" on the market now - who is to say 6 months from now they won't be blowing up left and right due to some flaw somewhere in the system - is ATI going to step up and warranty your motor if it lets go? Nope - nor shold you expect them to. Is GReddy, is PE, is Veilside, is Stillen, heck is ZEX or NOS if you hook up one of their nitrous kits? No on all fronts - its simply not how it happens. Each party is assuming certain things going into this scenario, and each has to be willing to bear the loss should something of a catastrophic natue occur. Look at it like gambling in Vegas - dont gamble more than you can afford to loose, and expect the worst, hope for the best. You could have HKS themselves use your car as a mule - there is a good chance it will blow up (its happened before) - same can be said for these guys, or whomever else ventures into the realm of FI'ing a car where there was no FI before.

Good luck to all! Would love to see a good FI kit come to market -its always cool pushing the envelope, but as with most things in this realm, its not for everyone.

adam

350zdanny

SSR-

I would like you to answer two questions for me and the rest of the community:

1) How is it that you claim you will warranty any damage on the car, but you will not put the claim in writing? Writing is not messy. Messy is what ensues after an incident where a clear statutory contract was not in place.

2) Unfortunately I have to go back to the Sentra for one second. How is it that you claim it was not YOUR fault that you snapped the rods? Would the rods have snapped in the absence of a TT kit? Did you not miss your goal of 220hp and blow the engine because you were putting down 242hp (admittedly beyond the stock internals' capabilities)?

3) - I lied there are 3 questions - what is to stop you from missing your "conservative" goal on the 350z of 350whp and blowing a donor engine because the "rods were defective"? Everyone knows the weak link in the Z is the rods. Top Secret did that research for you at the small cost of 3 engines. Bottom line - what makes this situation different than the Sentra situation?

Thanks and I hope everything goes well in bringing this kit to market safely and reliably.

-Dan

platinumspecv

The Turbo spec made wayyy too much torque down low. There are some things you can do to fix this. Retard timing, lower the boost, or make it richer down low. The QR25DE was not meant to be boosted on stock form. After pistons, rods and T-Sleevs, you can push the car easily to 350+whp easy. That is what AEBS is doing for me right now.

THe stock rods of the QR25DE are like pencil dicks...very weak and think. THe motor that was being tested was sprayed a few times. Now when you spray nitrous, you get an instant surge of A LOT OF TORQUE. That is very damaging to the rods. So on the 6th pull of the dyno the rod snapped. So safely we know it will handle around 220whp (which is where the 4psi spring comes to play).

Basically you need at least stronger rods to boost the QR25DE safely. The kit SSR made is EMACULATE! The construction and fabricaion is beautiful. Very well done. The air will flow very freely. Also when SSR makes a turbo kit..they make sure the hp and tq curves are very flat...so you make power all the way to red line!!

Now the 350Z has beefier rods that will handle a lot more safely. The rods are much thicker. It's still a good idea to get rods from someone like Pauter or JWT to secure your investment but that's up to you. Most people who consider this are smart.

my 2 cents


Peace!

SSR Engineering

1) How is it that you claim you will warranty any damage on the car, but you will not put the claim in writing? Writing is not messy. Messy is what ensues after an incident where a clear statutory contract was not in place.

If you want to get it in writing it will be a huge contract. Because YOU could get your car back, get it dinged up and hold us liable for that. Or YOU could blow your car up out of stupidity and hold us reliable. We will warranty the work if it's something on our part that was wrong, installation or tuning. We're not going to sign something saying "We're liable for your car," it will have to be very bold so there isn't any loop-holes.

2) Unfortunately I have to go back to the Sentra for one second. How is it that you claim it was not YOUR fault that you snapped the rods? Would the rods have snapped in the absence of a TT kit? Did you not miss your goal of 220hp and blow the engine because you were putting down 242hp (admittedly beyond the stock internals' capabilities)?

No, no, the 242 is supposed to be in reason within the stock limits, who knows the motor could have been bad. We'll see this week. 242 Is not a far cry from 250WHP where as the 350z's limits hovering around the 475WHP mark and us claiming to shoot for 350 is quite a huge gap there.


3) - I lied there are 3 questions - what is to stop you from missing your "conservative" goal on the 350z of 350whp and blowing a donor engine because the "rods were defective"? Everyone knows the weak link in the Z is the rods. Top Secret did that research for you at the small cost of 3 engines. Bottom line - what makes this situation different than the Sentra situation?

Well, it's all about the quest for performance. Read Z1's post he elaborated it finely. When you start modifying your car you start to lose reliability. So that's up to YOU if you want to modify your car or not.

Thanks and I hope everything goes well in bringing this kit to market safely and reliably.

-Dan [/B][/QUOTE]

G35SC T.T.

i am bringing him my g35 coupe to have the kit installed.

phunk

iTrader: (21)

My outlook, as a shop owner who has done and seen a lot of stuff. We have built engines and turbo systems. We have tuned engines, and we have blown up engines.

Sorry it happens to even the best and I have examples to back this if someone is gonna say that blowing up engines is something that big time tuners never have happen to them.

SSR Engineering is not at fault for that Spec V motor throwing a rod. Bad fuel or ignition tuning doesnt typically cause a rod to break. Piston ring lands are 99% the risk of bad tuning. Rods usually break when they are past their stress limits... You would have to have one REALLY CRUMMY connecting rod if bad tuning caused a rod to break before melting a piston.

Rather then being mad at the tuner in that situation, I would be mad at Nissan for selling me a car with shitty rods.

Hell, those cars throw rods bone stock (I know 2 people personally, which happen to be the only 2 guys I personally know with a Spec V), so whats the big surprise in a turbo one throwing a rod.

From what I have heard, apparently QR25s toss around rods all day like its going out of style.

etx

way to proclaim your own ownage, *****.

This would have to be quite an advanced unit to be pre-tuned. Does it have a wideband o2 sensor to control duty cycle? I could see an generic map + wbo2 working well. A generic "pre-tuned" unit is not a good idea. Sure you could sell it, but I am not going to run it. All motors are different, they have thier differances and inperfections. ANY aftermarket FI system needs to be properly tuned and if you think you can slap a "black-box" on and that will make it ok I feel sorry for your car.

The VQ35 has its own set of problems when it comes to FI. Rods are one of them, the block/sleve is the other.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

I guess what I find amazing is that to date, noone has a truly powerful VQ35 motor, and even among those who have gone forced induction, their engine management (actually lack thereof) is crude.....so at this point, noone knows what the motor can take, nor what its weak points are.

While I tend to agree that a "black box" method of "one for all" tuning does not tend to work well, it is a function of how hard the system is being pushed, and of course, how well that "black box" interfaces with the stock ecu (which you'll find on this car is no easy task at all, as there is a very narrow range of adjustment built into the ecu). While I don't like drawing crude comparisons, Audi's and VW's which are midly tuned work just fine with one for all chips from a variety of manufacturers (Garret, MTM, APR and others), so it can be done, if it is done within the confines of what the stock motor can safely handle, and as importantly, if the person burning the chip or reflashing the ecu is well versed in such activities and knows what he is doing (a widely claimed, but often seldom possed trait).

That being said, I personally don't think this is a motor that warrants FI for the simple reason that noone to date has a viable ecu solution for a US Spec OBDII equipped car. Short of getting rid of all the various CAN network ecu's in the car 9TCS, VDC, etc etc), and going to full on standalone, at this point, no viable solution exists. The lack of engine management is what I see as being the 350Z's curent limitation for FI, not the design limitations of the motor, none of which anyone has seen at this point. it will be interesting to see if we can run a standalone as a parralel system - something we will probably look into with our own car and a TEC3 at some point (we have done the same type of system on Subaru's for years), but at this point, I cannot say how the other ecu's will react to it all.

Adam

G35SC T.T.

how come nobody says anything about the s/c setup, that seems to be working with the ecu with no prob.

they are using base settings just like ati, so whats the big deal.

some have blown, some haven't, why because there recomended settings will get you to the dyno if you take it easy and dont beat on it before you get it tuned.

and you tune to your car.

every motor is different.

so i dont understand all the negativity.

he going to use my car. tune to my car. setup all other based on my car to get you to the dyno to tune based on your motor.

for example, the CARB will be the ECU that we have in our cars

lets say we have 2 chevy 350's, one has 12.5:1 compression with say a .630 roller cam, ported and polished heads, headers, sheetmetal manifold, and a holley dominator carb. and i was selling the carb.

and the other person had the other 350. his motor has 8.5:1 compression with say a .479 hydraulic camshaft, headers, edelbrock manifold, and he wanted to put this carb on his car.

he would have to rejet the carb because it is tuned to my car not his he would run really really rich until he did it but he would get there saftely with out much damage except to his plugs, from just dumping so much fuel and not being able to burn it.

how come nowbody is jumping on technosquare with thier ecu upgrade how can they put out a ecu for the masses so its the same thing to do it right they would have to tune each and every car to make sure me or you arent running lean or rich.

xndsan

SSR where are you in tucson?

SSR Engineering

Our distribution point is in tucson, mail-orders and internet orders. We don't offer any public support, yet.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

I don't think there are enough s/c cars out there to know if its working well or not, nor does any single car (let alone group of cars) have any long term usage - at most they have had it in their cars a few months, so the jury is still out IMHO. Out of those limited number sold, several motors have let go - I could not tell you the reason, only that they have blown.

I see what you are saying about the carb - bigest difference is there is 50+ years of tuning knowledge behind these carbs, and tons of resources out there to check with as to what definitively works and what does not. This car has been out for a year now, and noone really has a sound basis of knowledge as to what it can realistically take and what it cannot - that can only come with time. The "one size fits all" mentality of tuning can be made to work very well, if the car is so conservatively tuned from the factory that minor changes really liven it up, and if the respective tuner still keeps things on a conservative basis. Given TS's history with the company that actually designs and makes the reflash units, I have no doubt they know what they are doing and more importantly what limitations they have to work with. Only a potential customer can decide though if its worth it to them or not, and over time, we'll see the long term effects, good bad or indifferent, of such purchase decisions. All of this though fits into the big picture of improving the breed, so someone has to be willing to take these initial steps, blow stuff up, etc. etc. etc. for the masses to learn what the car can realistically stand power wise. To say on the one hand that any company, regardless of past successes is a master of tuning this car would be smoke up the preverbial butts of everyone here. The reverse also holds true - to dismiss a tuner because a car that they tried to push the envelope on threw a rod is equally a waste of breath. Anyone serious about truly doing this type of work should be of the mindset to expect the worst and hope for the best. Its expensive and time consuming being the first to do anything of this nature. I lived through the experience a few years back with my Subaru (Iwas the 3rd or 4th person in the country to turbocharge their RS), and it exceeded my expectations. However, despite the fact that I had bought a "kit" things needed to be modified, and I quickly grew tired of the performance, so we decided to play around. Those month of experimenting resulted in the fastest Subaru in the country at that time, all without the use of external engine management. Eventually (after about 40k miles), we twisted a rod while driving home from the track, so that motor had to go. At that point, I decided to build a 2.0 liter STi motor and swap it in (I was amongst the first to do such a swap, now its fairly commonplace). Once again, I was left in relatively unchartered territory, but the time eventually paid off. After spending countless hours teaching myself the ecu I had purchased, the car was a high 11 second car, at nearly 120 mph in the 1.4 mile, on pump gas. This was a complete daily driver, full weight car (3050 lbs). Still very fast by Subaru standards in this country....and this was done 2.5 years ago. Over the 2 ish years I owned that car, I learned a lifetime of knowledge about what it takes to make them go fast reliably, but it was a very costly affair both in terms of time and money. However it formed the foundation of my knowledge base, and made me better at my job, so was well worth the trip.

Good luck to you on your journey with the FI!