My HKS S/C Installation
08-22-2010, 01:12 AM
#501
Something I never brought up before, but I have experienced since day one after install...On light throttle inputs (never under medium or heavy loads) I get a flutter sound. I am not sure if this is normal or if it is compressor surge and how damaging it could be..
Do any of you experience this light "flutter" after light throttle inputs?
Example (near end of video):
http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ge5HKSGTSC.mp4
If this is not normal, I don't know what to do to correct it, and whether damage could have occurred after ~4-5k miles with this occasionally occurring when coming off light throttle inputs (never in boost (guage shows vacuum), only after just tapping the accelerator).
Should I replace the standard bypass valve with another one. Should I try to replace it with a race bypass valve? (not sure if it will fit).
Anyone else every experience this "flutter"?
Do any of you experience this light "flutter" after light throttle inputs?
Example (near end of video):
http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ge5HKSGTSC.mp4
If this is not normal, I don't know what to do to correct it, and whether damage could have occurred after ~4-5k miles with this occasionally occurring when coming off light throttle inputs (never in boost (guage shows vacuum), only after just tapping the accelerator).
Should I replace the standard bypass valve with another one. Should I try to replace it with a race bypass valve? (not sure if it will fit).
Anyone else every experience this "flutter"?
08-22-2010, 02:07 AM
#502
So after some research on the intranets regarding bypass valve "fluttering", what I am experiencing may be normal and not indicative of compressor surge:
"Valve fluttering is commonly thought to be an automatic indicator of compressor surging, and I would like to put that rumor to rest right now. This could not be further from the truth."
"Compressor surging (caused by a bypass valve) implies that the bypass valve is not opening fully to allow the optimal amount of airflow required to keep the compressor wheel of the turbo spinning at an optimal speed."
"Bypass valve fluttering will occur under various circumstances, so please consider under what situations you are experiencing fluttering before you presume that compressor surging is taking place, or more importantly, before it is assumed that a problem even exists. "
"Valve fluttering under wide open throttle or full boost throttle lift, again, typically means that a valve is tuned or adjusted to stiffly, and while this can lead to compressor surging and potential damage over an extended period of time, if the user fixes the issue quickly, no significant damage will occur. It would only be after prolonged use of a valve in an improperly tuned configuration that compressor surging MAY lead to damage or excessive wear on the turbocharger."
"Valve fluttering under partial throttle or partial boost throttle lift, on the other hand, is a completely normal occurrence and IS NOT an indication of compressor surging by any measure."
"Partial throttle or partial boost valve fluttering is solely an indication that the valve is directly responding to the inconsistent pressure differential on either side of the throttle plate (throttle body)."
An internal combustion engine naturally creates a vacuum effect during the intake stroke of a given cylinder. When boost pressure is built from the turbocharger, it will reach a certain level inside the intercooler piping, but as it enters the intake manifold, it is almost instantly reduced by a given amount of vacuum created by the intake stroke of the engine, thus resulting in a marginally lesser amount of boost pressure inside the intake manifold compared to inside the intercooler piping.
Since the bypass valve sees references from both of these pressure sources, the sealing surface of the valve, be it a diaphragm or a piston, will respond to these differences in pressure, as minor or severe as they may be. This sealing surface response is what is creating the fluttering effect at partial throttle or partial boost throttle lift.
"It may be more pronounced on some applications than others, and as mentioned above, the OEM Evo valves incorporates a feature to combat this issue, and while it will always be present to a small extent, it is not a problem for the vehicle in any way whatsoever."
http://www.audiforum.ca/audi-a4/382-...off-valve.html
So if this article is correct, hopefully it should be normal. I sent HKS an e-mail with a vid sample of the flutter just to be sure.
"Valve fluttering is commonly thought to be an automatic indicator of compressor surging, and I would like to put that rumor to rest right now. This could not be further from the truth."
"Compressor surging (caused by a bypass valve) implies that the bypass valve is not opening fully to allow the optimal amount of airflow required to keep the compressor wheel of the turbo spinning at an optimal speed."
"Bypass valve fluttering will occur under various circumstances, so please consider under what situations you are experiencing fluttering before you presume that compressor surging is taking place, or more importantly, before it is assumed that a problem even exists. "
"Valve fluttering under wide open throttle or full boost throttle lift, again, typically means that a valve is tuned or adjusted to stiffly, and while this can lead to compressor surging and potential damage over an extended period of time, if the user fixes the issue quickly, no significant damage will occur. It would only be after prolonged use of a valve in an improperly tuned configuration that compressor surging MAY lead to damage or excessive wear on the turbocharger."
"Valve fluttering under partial throttle or partial boost throttle lift, on the other hand, is a completely normal occurrence and IS NOT an indication of compressor surging by any measure."
"Partial throttle or partial boost valve fluttering is solely an indication that the valve is directly responding to the inconsistent pressure differential on either side of the throttle plate (throttle body)."
An internal combustion engine naturally creates a vacuum effect during the intake stroke of a given cylinder. When boost pressure is built from the turbocharger, it will reach a certain level inside the intercooler piping, but as it enters the intake manifold, it is almost instantly reduced by a given amount of vacuum created by the intake stroke of the engine, thus resulting in a marginally lesser amount of boost pressure inside the intake manifold compared to inside the intercooler piping.
Since the bypass valve sees references from both of these pressure sources, the sealing surface of the valve, be it a diaphragm or a piston, will respond to these differences in pressure, as minor or severe as they may be. This sealing surface response is what is creating the fluttering effect at partial throttle or partial boost throttle lift.
"It may be more pronounced on some applications than others, and as mentioned above, the OEM Evo valves incorporates a feature to combat this issue, and while it will always be present to a small extent, it is not a problem for the vehicle in any way whatsoever."
http://www.audiforum.ca/audi-a4/382-...off-valve.html
So if this article is correct, hopefully it should be normal. I sent HKS an e-mail with a vid sample of the flutter just to be sure.
08-22-2010, 01:58 PM
#503
By the way here is the GTM part numbers on all the the pipes that make up the GTM DE TT kit intake pipe.
https://my350z.com/forum/8606860-post494.html
https://my350z.com/forum/8606860-post494.html
Picked out a some filters that will work for my two new intake designs
K&N Part numbers:
1 - RX-2820
2 - RU-2820
3 - RE-0910
I really like the RX-2820, but the RU-2820 should work just as well.
08-24-2010, 10:13 AM
#504
So after some research on the intranets regarding bypass valve "fluttering", what I am experiencing may be normal and not indicative of compressor surge:
"Valve fluttering is commonly thought to be an automatic indicator of compressor surging, and I would like to put that rumor to rest right now. This could not be further from the truth."
"Compressor surging (caused by a bypass valve) implies that the bypass valve is not opening fully to allow the optimal amount of airflow required to keep the compressor wheel of the turbo spinning at an optimal speed."
"Bypass valve fluttering will occur under various circumstances, so please consider under what situations you are experiencing fluttering before you presume that compressor surging is taking place, or more importantly, before it is assumed that a problem even exists. "
"Valve fluttering under wide open throttle or full boost throttle lift, again, typically means that a valve is tuned or adjusted to stiffly, and while this can lead to compressor surging and potential damage over an extended period of time, if the user fixes the issue quickly, no significant damage will occur. It would only be after prolonged use of a valve in an improperly tuned configuration that compressor surging MAY lead to damage or excessive wear on the turbocharger."
"Valve fluttering under partial throttle or partial boost throttle lift, on the other hand, is a completely normal occurrence and IS NOT an indication of compressor surging by any measure."
"Partial throttle or partial boost valve fluttering is solely an indication that the valve is directly responding to the inconsistent pressure differential on either side of the throttle plate (throttle body)."
An internal combustion engine naturally creates a vacuum effect during the intake stroke of a given cylinder. When boost pressure is built from the turbocharger, it will reach a certain level inside the intercooler piping, but as it enters the intake manifold, it is almost instantly reduced by a given amount of vacuum created by the intake stroke of the engine, thus resulting in a marginally lesser amount of boost pressure inside the intake manifold compared to inside the intercooler piping.
Since the bypass valve sees references from both of these pressure sources, the sealing surface of the valve, be it a diaphragm or a piston, will respond to these differences in pressure, as minor or severe as they may be. This sealing surface response is what is creating the fluttering effect at partial throttle or partial boost throttle lift.
"It may be more pronounced on some applications than others, and as mentioned above, the OEM Evo valves incorporates a feature to combat this issue, and while it will always be present to a small extent, it is not a problem for the vehicle in any way whatsoever."
http://www.audiforum.ca/audi-a4/382-...off-valve.html
So if this article is correct, hopefully it should be normal. I sent HKS an e-mail with a vid sample of the flutter just to be sure.
"Valve fluttering is commonly thought to be an automatic indicator of compressor surging, and I would like to put that rumor to rest right now. This could not be further from the truth."
"Compressor surging (caused by a bypass valve) implies that the bypass valve is not opening fully to allow the optimal amount of airflow required to keep the compressor wheel of the turbo spinning at an optimal speed."
"Bypass valve fluttering will occur under various circumstances, so please consider under what situations you are experiencing fluttering before you presume that compressor surging is taking place, or more importantly, before it is assumed that a problem even exists. "
"Valve fluttering under wide open throttle or full boost throttle lift, again, typically means that a valve is tuned or adjusted to stiffly, and while this can lead to compressor surging and potential damage over an extended period of time, if the user fixes the issue quickly, no significant damage will occur. It would only be after prolonged use of a valve in an improperly tuned configuration that compressor surging MAY lead to damage or excessive wear on the turbocharger."
"Valve fluttering under partial throttle or partial boost throttle lift, on the other hand, is a completely normal occurrence and IS NOT an indication of compressor surging by any measure."
"Partial throttle or partial boost valve fluttering is solely an indication that the valve is directly responding to the inconsistent pressure differential on either side of the throttle plate (throttle body)."
An internal combustion engine naturally creates a vacuum effect during the intake stroke of a given cylinder. When boost pressure is built from the turbocharger, it will reach a certain level inside the intercooler piping, but as it enters the intake manifold, it is almost instantly reduced by a given amount of vacuum created by the intake stroke of the engine, thus resulting in a marginally lesser amount of boost pressure inside the intake manifold compared to inside the intercooler piping.
Since the bypass valve sees references from both of these pressure sources, the sealing surface of the valve, be it a diaphragm or a piston, will respond to these differences in pressure, as minor or severe as they may be. This sealing surface response is what is creating the fluttering effect at partial throttle or partial boost throttle lift.
"It may be more pronounced on some applications than others, and as mentioned above, the OEM Evo valves incorporates a feature to combat this issue, and while it will always be present to a small extent, it is not a problem for the vehicle in any way whatsoever."
http://www.audiforum.ca/audi-a4/382-...off-valve.html
So if this article is correct, hopefully it should be normal. I sent HKS an e-mail with a vid sample of the flutter just to be sure.
Any progress with the plans you had in terms of the ATI pulley and the larger boost pulley?
Ariel
08-27-2010, 05:54 PM
#505
So I could go ahead with the pulley change, but I'm not sure I should be spending much more money on this setup ($$ for labor to swap pulleys, and $$ for dyno fine retune).
Or I can return the belts, and ATI, and take a small hit on restocking fees. Then buy new belts (b/w $20-35 not the $120 HKS belt) for the current pulley setup (stock crank pulley and 85mm supercharger pulley). And just have to pay labor to put in new belts (no retune or labor for swapping pulleys).
I've already poured so much money into this, and although I want it to be optimally setup, I'm not sure the extra ~$600 is worth any benefits in changing pulleys.
From what I've gathered, the pulley change, may result in .5 psi increase 200 rpms earlier (although I would need to set my rev limiter at 6700-6800 as opposed to 7000 redline to prevent overspinning), might give less chance of belt slip b/c more belt wrap, and will protect the crank more with the dampened crank pulley.
Is the possibility of benefits worth the added cost? I also am unsure of the difficulty in changing the supercharger pulley and whether there is any possibility of causing any damage in the process.
I'm not sure if one of my tensioner pulleys is going bad or pulleys misaligned or if I just had worn/bad belt or what, but if I continue to have belt slip/idle surge with the new belts and/or pulleys or other problems, I will have to seriously consider selling the kit and going with something else, or transporting the car to Sam @GTM for troubleshooting, or going back to N/A.
Last edited by jonnylaw; 08-27-2010 at 06:47 PM.
08-27-2010, 08:45 PM
#506
Christ, i've spent the last few days reading through this thread and now you're considering selling the kit Jonny!?!
I'm picking up my Vortech tuned zed in a few hours, i'm so exicted about driving it...but am a little disheartened after reading this from you. I really hope you get this issue sorted!
I'm picking up my Vortech tuned zed in a few hours, i'm so exicted about driving it...but am a little disheartened after reading this from you. I really hope you get this issue sorted!
08-27-2010, 11:24 PM
#507
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Jonny, keep at it mate!
These things always take time and money, but you enjoy it. Stick with it and try these belt combos, there really shouldnt be slipping the way that you are describing.
in regards to which option, after talking to you, i will be going the ATI because of the added benefits that gives.
These things always take time and money, but you enjoy it. Stick with it and try these belt combos, there really shouldnt be slipping the way that you are describing.
in regards to which option, after talking to you, i will be going the ATI because of the added benefits that gives.
Last edited by _ink; 08-27-2010 at 11:53 PM.
08-30-2010, 04:03 PM
#508
Well, I've decided to keep the stock crank pulley and 85mm SC pulley in place and put in new belts and tighten them down. I couldn't really justify spending another 500-600 on labor and retune, before trying to belts. Also, GTM has proven good results with the stock crank pulley and 85mm SC pulley. So I'm gonna try this one more time with fresh belts.
08-31-2010, 02:59 PM
#509
Well I ended up finding my MAF Sensor Flange on e-bay for $33.00. I also ended up with RU-2820 K&N filter
So this Saturday we can get to work building a new intake system for th HKS GT Supercharger.
This new design should help with the Air intake temps. At a stop light I am seeing 190 Degree temps. Once moving it drops to 95 Degrees.
I bought a UltraGauge last week at the $39.00 price. This way I don't have to take the Pc to view my intake temps.
I will have to do a whole re-tune with all that I am doing. This should allow me to go back to the OEM MAF as well (will See).
So this Saturday we can get to work building a new intake system for th HKS GT Supercharger.
This new design should help with the Air intake temps. At a stop light I am seeing 190 Degree temps. Once moving it drops to 95 Degrees.
I bought a UltraGauge last week at the $39.00 price. This way I don't have to take the Pc to view my intake temps.
I will have to do a whole re-tune with all that I am doing. This should allow me to go back to the OEM MAF as well (will See).
08-31-2010, 03:02 PM
#510
Well, I've decided to keep the stock crank pulley and 85mm SC pulley in place and put in new belts and tighten them down. I couldn't really justify spending another 500-600 on labor and retune, before trying to belts. Also, GTM has proven good results with the stock crank pulley and 85mm SC pulley. So I'm gonna try this one more time with fresh belts.
09-03-2010, 12:45 PM
#511
Well, I've decided to keep the stock crank pulley and 85mm SC pulley in place and put in new belts and tighten them down. I couldn't really justify spending another 500-600 on labor and retune, before trying to belts. Also, GTM has proven good results with the stock crank pulley and 85mm SC pulley. So I'm gonna try this one more time with fresh belts.
BTW guys, it is time for me to upgrade my clutch. Does anyone one have a recommendation. I have the OS giken single disc and Carbonetics single disc in mind.
09-04-2010, 06:03 PM
#513
New Intake
Ok all, I got my new intake built today. First off let me say my air intake temp dropped at both idle and at 55mph.
Before:
Over all I real happy. The car sounds better and idles better.
Before:
- Idle: Engine Temp 200 Degrees.
- Idle: Intake Temp 190 Degrees.
- 55 Mph: Intake Temp 120 Degrees.
- Idle: Engine Temp 200 Degrees.
- Idle: Intake Temp 89 Degrees.
- 55 Mph: Intake Temp 84 Degrees.
Over all I real happy. The car sounds better and idles better.
09-05-2010, 12:31 AM
#515
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Awesome work!!!!!!!
Did you notice any difference in acceleration? Particularly from a stop?
Now how much to sell us the intake setup? Piping and filter etc...
Did you notice any difference in acceleration? Particularly from a stop?
Now how much to sell us the intake setup? Piping and filter etc...
09-05-2010, 07:01 AM
#516
As for difference in acceleration. I really cannot tell anything yet. I have another part of this project yet to be done. I am moving the MAF location up closer to the throttle body just after my Bypass valve. This should help make the air intake temp even cooler.
Will work on my fab'er about building another intake. I would be nice if I could get a few more to make it worthwhile for him.
Last edited by cdoxp800; 09-05-2010 at 07:04 AM.
09-05-2010, 12:47 PM
#517
So today I got the Plug designed in the http://www.emachineshop.com/ Cad software. This it the Plug I am going to use in the current MAF location in the HKS Pipe. I will use this plug once I get my other intake pipe built for the MAF relocation closer to the throttle body just after my Bypass valve. I have submitted it for a quote. I wonder what the price will be.
Pic's:
Pic's:
Last edited by cdoxp800; 09-05-2010 at 12:48 PM.
09-06-2010, 02:16 AM
#520
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I'm also running off the MAP and using the fcon that the HKS kit came with.
If i am running off the MAP, what sort of data is the ECU getting from the MAF?
If i am running off the MAP, what sort of data is the ECU getting from the MAF?