Possible blown head gasket? Loud pop under boost log
04-08-2010, 10:24 AM
#41
New Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: terre haute, IN; STL, MO
Posts: 6,457
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
true, it rose probably a little more than that unless the gauge on the car is way off. When i pulled over the gauge was a little above half and when i was down at idle it rose up to about 3/4 but it didn't reach the "H". So anything thing that is hot enough to warp the head?
Well, the thing i'm worried about is the damage was already done on the run just previous to that run with 28 deg timing. I'm afraid damage was done THEN and the next run it finally popped the gasket.
I know that low of timing isn't good but i had my map set on the safe side and i was slowly adding timing to it.
I'm in st louis for school right now, hal is about 6 hours away. The shop that i was driving my car home from is an Authorezed osiris tuner also. The next closest to me is Hal so when i get this sorted out I will be going to him. I might have to anyways in order for him to fix this motor issue. I'm trynig to get ahold of him and see how much labor would cost to tear down the engine, redeck, and send back to me. It's a sad story and very unexpected for this to happen when the tuner i used came highly recommended by all the people i know that have had a tune from him. I won't add my personal opinion of the tuner and shop until all the red tape on what they are going to do about it is figured out.
I don't think you're doing your pistons, headgasket or exhaust valves any favors running an AFR of 10:1 and timing of 10-12 degrees at redline at relatively low boost. As others have said, while it's impossible to rule out damage to the headgasket, most likely all the excess fuel just decided to explode in the exhaust manifold secondary to heat generated from the "retarded" tune. You say at the beginning that this has nothing to do with the tuner, but you're not that far from Hal@IP (authorized Osiris tuner), I'd take it down there and let him check it out and get you a tune that will prevent this from happening again.
EDIT: Just looked at the log you mentioned where the pop occurred. Man you were hardly on it - like 5% throttle going from like 50 to 60 mph? MAF was really low - had to be a backfire... Count yourself lucky that you got a warning - you can destroy any engine by retarding timing too much - get that puppy tuned by a pro and you'll be fine!
EDIT: Just looked at the log you mentioned where the pop occurred. Man you were hardly on it - like 5% throttle going from like 50 to 60 mph? MAF was really low - had to be a backfire... Count yourself lucky that you got a warning - you can destroy any engine by retarding timing too much - get that puppy tuned by a pro and you'll be fine!
I know that low of timing isn't good but i had my map set on the safe side and i was slowly adding timing to it.
I'm in st louis for school right now, hal is about 6 hours away. The shop that i was driving my car home from is an Authorezed osiris tuner also. The next closest to me is Hal so when i get this sorted out I will be going to him. I might have to anyways in order for him to fix this motor issue. I'm trynig to get ahold of him and see how much labor would cost to tear down the engine, redeck, and send back to me. It's a sad story and very unexpected for this to happen when the tuner i used came highly recommended by all the people i know that have had a tune from him. I won't add my personal opinion of the tuner and shop until all the red tape on what they are going to do about it is figured out.
04-08-2010, 04:16 PM
#43
New Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: terre haute, IN; STL, MO
Posts: 6,457
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
The "wrong map" was the tuners map. The safe map was mine. His map had 28 deg of timing dialed in. Technically it was my fault that i forgot to select my safe map, but why the hell did he tell me his map was safe timing when it obviously was 28 deg at full boost?
I didn't want this to be a blame game but fact of the matter is had i never gone to that tuner, i never would have had a map on my car with 28 deg timing WOT under boost.
I didn't want this to be a blame game but fact of the matter is had i never gone to that tuner, i never would have had a map on my car with 28 deg timing WOT under boost.
04-08-2010, 05:03 PM
#44
I looked at the logs again - lots of stuff in raw voltages make it harder to read (that wasn't 5% throttle in my comment about your last map but 5V or 100% throttle - my bad), but your timing at full flow per MAF voltage appears to be below 12 even in the first log... Where file shows the 28 degrees of timing? Can you post the few rows right into a post that have MAF vs ignition timing vs throttle position?
Last edited by rcdash; 04-08-2010 at 05:05 PM.
04-08-2010, 05:56 PM
#45
New Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: terre haute, IN; STL, MO
Posts: 6,457
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
I looked at the logs again - lots of stuff in raw voltages make it harder to read (that wasn't 5% throttle in my comment about your last map but 5V or 100% throttle - my bad), but your timing at full flow per MAF voltage appears to be below 12 even in the first log... Where file shows the 28 degrees of timing? Can you post the few rows right into a post that have MAF vs ignition timing vs throttle position?
Here i guess i tried to make a chart in excel. Excel is another pain in the *** so i guess that's the best i can do.
In cipher the MAF is just below the engine rpm which is just below timing. click on an area of the charge then look at the data at the top that is highlighted.
04-08-2010, 07:25 PM
#46
Ah, the 10-15-32 run is not in the group of csv files attached in the first post. Got it.
That timing is definitely high no question if you were at 12 psi (can't tell with just the MAF voltage - are you maxing that out? Is it a stock MAF?). That's like stock (NA) timing...
Did your tuner have an explanation for that? Did he tune timing on the dyno and find maximum brake torque? If he did, then I would be a little worried because he likely made multiple passes with that timing. Your one run is the least of your worries. I have to believe you are overlooking something. Maybe he had race fuel in the car??? What about other timing compensation maps? I haven't touched Osiris in over a year so not sure if true ign timing is being recorded in your logs or just the base timing. I would give your tuner the benefit of the doubt and discuss candidly with him. If you have any misgivings, take it to Hal and he can tell you what was going on with that flash.
Anyway, I hope your built motor is fine. I've got a feeling it is (fingers crossed). The pop came from running your map and I still think that was just a backfire. If you feel your map is safer, just keep it on, stay out of boost and take it to your tuner or Hal to review. Good luck bro!
That timing is definitely high no question if you were at 12 psi (can't tell with just the MAF voltage - are you maxing that out? Is it a stock MAF?). That's like stock (NA) timing...
Did your tuner have an explanation for that? Did he tune timing on the dyno and find maximum brake torque? If he did, then I would be a little worried because he likely made multiple passes with that timing. Your one run is the least of your worries. I have to believe you are overlooking something. Maybe he had race fuel in the car??? What about other timing compensation maps? I haven't touched Osiris in over a year so not sure if true ign timing is being recorded in your logs or just the base timing. I would give your tuner the benefit of the doubt and discuss candidly with him. If you have any misgivings, take it to Hal and he can tell you what was going on with that flash.Anyway, I hope your built motor is fine. I've got a feeling it is (fingers crossed). The pop came from running your map and I still think that was just a backfire. If you feel your map is safer, just keep it on, stay out of boost and take it to your tuner or Hal to review. Good luck bro!
Last edited by rcdash; 04-08-2010 at 07:36 PM.
04-09-2010, 12:01 PM
#49
New Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: terre haute, IN; STL, MO
Posts: 6,457
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
That timing is definitely high no question if you were at 12 psi (can't tell with just the MAF voltage - are you maxing that out? Is it a stock MAF?). That's like stock (NA) timing... Did your tuner have an explanation for that? Did he tune timing on the dyno and find maximum brake torque? If he did, then I would be a little worried because he likely made multiple passes with that timing. Your one run is the least of your worries. I have to believe you are overlooking something. Maybe he had race fuel in the car??? What about other timing compensation maps? I haven't touched Osiris in over a year so not sure if true ign timing is being recorded in your logs or just the base timing. I would give your tuner the benefit of the doubt and discuss candidly with him. If you have any misgivings, take it to Hal and he can tell you what was going on with that flash.
Did your tuner have an explanation for that? Did he tune timing on the dyno and find maximum brake torque? If he did, then I would be a little worried because he likely made multiple passes with that timing. Your one run is the least of your worries. I have to believe you are overlooking something. Maybe he had race fuel in the car??? What about other timing compensation maps? I haven't touched Osiris in over a year so not sure if true ign timing is being recorded in your logs or just the base timing. I would give your tuner the benefit of the doubt and discuss candidly with him. If you have any misgivings, take it to Hal and he can tell you what was going on with that flash.The issue was (and BrianL listen also). When my car is in neutral and you rev the engine it sometimes drops down below idle and stalls. For some reason it has always had a hard time catching idle if i let the rpms drop really fast. The tuner was having issues with this and couldn't "fix" it completely. I'm perfectly ok with it since i drove that way for an entire year (my stock block did this also). He did not want to go further with the tune because of this. He did not tune into boost or anything like that. I asked him before i left if he pulled all the timing back so i would be safe to get into boost and do some tuning of my own. He told me he pulled back timing values. I assumed this meant pulled them back to what would be safe for a boosted engine since i was asking about doing boost runs.
No race fuel. I run only shell vpower (93) and i wanted it tuned for that only. I was going to do meth but since i'm in school i wanted to keep it as simple as possible so there are less possibilities for problems.
I do not blame the tuner per se but there are some issues. I discussed it with the owner and he was going to talk with the tuner and get all the facts straight before any blame is put out there. Perfectly ok with me. That's why i didn't want this to be a tuner bashing thread.
I'm pretty sure it's actual timing. When i log timing from obdII and from osiris it is the same value. I could be wrong though. osiris pro's might want to chime in.
04-09-2010, 12:24 PM
#50
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is why you need some kind of knock control especially when street tuning... Chit can happen. In the end you'll be in the short end of the stick so good luck...
04-10-2010, 01:10 PM
#51
New Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: terre haute, IN; STL, MO
Posts: 6,457
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
hard part is knock control on osiris is not available. I've been looking into the J&S safeguard which is the only knock "control" i know of for us. Everything else is just a knock detector and some of those have outputs that you can use for a wastegate solenoid or a map switching device. Neither of those are on my vortech car with OEM ecu/osiris.
04-10-2010, 06:19 PM
#52
ya, i know i'm pretty much hosed from the shop which is why it's pointless to bash them until i hear back from them on the matter.
hard part is knock control on osiris is not available. I've been looking into the J&S safeguard which is the only knock "control" i know of for us. Everything else is just a knock detector and some of those have outputs that you can use for a wastegate solenoid or a map switching device. Neither of those are on my vortech car with OEM ecu/osiris.
hard part is knock control on osiris is not available. I've been looking into the J&S safeguard which is the only knock "control" i know of for us. Everything else is just a knock detector and some of those have outputs that you can use for a wastegate solenoid or a map switching device. Neither of those are on my vortech car with OEM ecu/osiris.
I also tune my timing using the J&S.
Last edited by streetzlegend; 04-10-2010 at 06:21 PM.
04-10-2010, 06:32 PM
#53
New Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: terre haute, IN; STL, MO
Posts: 6,457
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
Ya, that sounds awsome. I'm looking into that setup but again with the med school poor issues. I guess i could sell my cd009 backup trans and backup comp clutch stage 4 clutch.
Anyways, it's pretty much confirmed today by my friends that the head gasket is the issue. They drove it around and it was fine so i tld them to do a few boost pulls. They did 2 low boost pulls and then on the way to the house a few minutes after that the temps started rising. They got to the houes and coolant was filling the reservoir. He said temps rose to 210 deg F.
After that he ran a compression test and they all came back close to each other but all low. all around 100psi so we decided that the gauge was probably off. No problem there but still more than likely head gasket.
Coolant in the reservoir didn't go back down once the engine cooled meaning that there had to be air forced into the cooling system. bad news for me.
After thinking about thermostat i've come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be the Tstat. The car never overheated before and on the previous boost runs it was perfectly fine. I would think it highly unlikely that all of a sudden after a high timing run the tstat is just not working. Along with that i do not think there was an air bubble hiding in my system for 2 months and after 400 miles of driving, then mild dyno runs, then all of a sudden it affects the car after a bad timing run under boost. It just doesn't add up.
So bad news is that i'm going to suck it up to a head gasket failure and pull the engine when i get home in 2 weeks. My buddy has tools to check to see if head and block surfaces are true. Maybe i'll walk away with just head gasket replacement.
also, when he pulled hte plugs for the compression test he noted that the plugs looked rich (from the 10:1 a/f) but he didn't see any speckles or signs of detonation.
so now, i'll need head gaskets and an army of orings and stuff to pull this all apart. anyone have a parts list for this job?
Anyways, it's pretty much confirmed today by my friends that the head gasket is the issue. They drove it around and it was fine so i tld them to do a few boost pulls. They did 2 low boost pulls and then on the way to the house a few minutes after that the temps started rising. They got to the houes and coolant was filling the reservoir. He said temps rose to 210 deg F.
After that he ran a compression test and they all came back close to each other but all low. all around 100psi so we decided that the gauge was probably off. No problem there but still more than likely head gasket.
Coolant in the reservoir didn't go back down once the engine cooled meaning that there had to be air forced into the cooling system. bad news for me.
After thinking about thermostat i've come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be the Tstat. The car never overheated before and on the previous boost runs it was perfectly fine. I would think it highly unlikely that all of a sudden after a high timing run the tstat is just not working. Along with that i do not think there was an air bubble hiding in my system for 2 months and after 400 miles of driving, then mild dyno runs, then all of a sudden it affects the car after a bad timing run under boost. It just doesn't add up.
So bad news is that i'm going to suck it up to a head gasket failure and pull the engine when i get home in 2 weeks. My buddy has tools to check to see if head and block surfaces are true. Maybe i'll walk away with just head gasket replacement.
also, when he pulled hte plugs for the compression test he noted that the plugs looked rich (from the 10:1 a/f) but he didn't see any speckles or signs of detonation.
so now, i'll need head gaskets and an army of orings and stuff to pull this all apart. anyone have a parts list for this job?
04-11-2010, 08:23 AM
#54
Those temps just don't seem that high and the symptoms don't appear to be extreme enough to indicate combustion gases entering the coolant. Temps rising after boosting is expected, isn't it? I would get the spill free funnel, bleed the air, look for signs of contamination, then go boosting and look for overheating. Might want to replace the radiator cap with an 18 psi one at the same time just to rule that out.
Last edited by rcdash; 04-11-2010 at 08:25 AM.
04-14-2010, 01:19 PM
#57
New Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: terre haute, IN; STL, MO
Posts: 6,457
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
Those temps just don't seem that high and the symptoms don't appear to be extreme enough to indicate combustion gases entering the coolant. Temps rising after boosting is expected, isn't it? I would get the spill free funnel, bleed the air, look for signs of contamination, then go boosting and look for overheating. Might want to replace the radiator cap with an 18 psi one at the same time just to rule that out.
parts are ordered, next week i'm done with finals nad heading home to pull it apart. When i get visual confirmation i'll post it on here. I'm almost 100% on head gasket failure unless someone else can explain how air keeps getting into my closed cooling system (zero leaks).
pm'ed
no they haven't, ghost town from them. No return phone call or emails. I'm dealing with finals right now so saturday i might give them a follow up call. I don't expect miracles but at least a refund for the tuning.
