How many motors blown due to Procharger?
11-19-2003, 05:24 AM
#61
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Originally posted by zyal8rnj
And it looks like I'll be purchasing that J&S thingee (yeah, that's my technical term for it) that Jesse has researched just to be extra safe.
And it looks like I'll be purchasing that J&S thingee (yeah, that's my technical term for it) that Jesse has researched just to be extra safe.
Just thought credit should be given where it's due.
11-19-2003, 07:00 AM
#62
Re: Re: Is this a sign that ATI might soon break their silence on fuel management issues
Originally posted by ravaz
....Think about it. If they post something on here, you guys will jump all over them and beat them to death....
-Bill
....Think about it. If they post something on here, you guys will jump all over them and beat them to death....
-Bill
Bill is right-
if you guys keep the barage of anti-sentiment, tuners are going to see the Z community as a bunch of whiners and cheapos. (let us not be like those on the Bimmer forums!! ha...)
Just let those companies get products out.. their words (truthful or not) will show in the hard numbers of owners in this forum and let their product speak for them..
Obviously 3 blown motors in 20 cars (or even 100+ as so ATI claims) isnt really *that* great of a success rate, but hey, at least they're actively engaging in some investigation into why those cars failed and looking for alternative measures..... Vortech has proven to me personally of having a good blower... i'm not going to let 1 rep decide the entire fate of their product just because he posted some BS...
being on the receiving end of alot of negative posts in the past.. i know how it feels like to be on the defensive... give those companies some breathing room... if they're dedicated and "meant to be", they will try everything in their power to prove it.
--cheston.
11-19-2003, 07:01 AM
#63
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Thanks for the correction and sorry about that. Rob, thank you!
The car does boost under 6000RPM, doesn't it? I know the most power is above that...The HP graph still had and upward slope at 6458RPM. I assume if I step on the gas while in 3rd (or any) gear @3000RPM next to a stock Z doing the same thing, I'm going to accelerate much faster, right?
Hindsight is 20/20...at some future point in my life if I'm faced with a new car purchase (Z34 or 35!!) and it's the first year model and all the mods are new or not even created yet, I'd probably wait 2 to 3 years and research everything more thoroughly. But in this case I want to be one of the first to have a really fast z33. (Did I say I had no ego problems?!?!)
It's all situational...I'm happy and have no problems with the kit so far. I don't use all the HP available so maybe I payed too much for what I do with the car...I can live with that.
The car does boost under 6000RPM, doesn't it? I know the most power is above that...The HP graph still had and upward slope at 6458RPM. I assume if I step on the gas while in 3rd (or any) gear @3000RPM next to a stock Z doing the same thing, I'm going to accelerate much faster, right?
Hindsight is 20/20...at some future point in my life if I'm faced with a new car purchase (Z34 or 35!!) and it's the first year model and all the mods are new or not even created yet, I'd probably wait 2 to 3 years and research everything more thoroughly. But in this case I want to be one of the first to have a really fast z33. (Did I say I had no ego problems?!?!)
It's all situational...I'm happy and have no problems with the kit so far. I don't use all the HP available so maybe I payed too much for what I do with the car...I can live with that.
11-19-2003, 11:34 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Is this a sign that ATI might soon break their silence on fuel management issues
Originally posted by Chebosto
Bill is right-
if you guys keep the barage of anti-sentiment, tuners are going to see the Z community as a bunch of whiners and cheapos. (let us not be like those on the Bimmer forums!! ha...)
Just let those companies get products out.. their words (truthful or not) will show in the hard numbers of owners in this forum and let their product speak for them..
Obviously 3 blown motors in 20 cars (or even 100+ as so ATI claims) isnt really *that* great of a success rate, but hey, at least they're actively engaging in some investigation into why those cars failed and looking for alternative measures..... Vortech has proven to me personally of having a good blower... i'm not going to let 1 rep decide the entire fate of their product just because he posted some BS...
being on the receiving end of alot of negative posts in the past.. i know how it feels like to be on the defensive... give those companies some breathing room... if they're dedicated and "meant to be", they will try everything in their power to prove it.
--cheston.
Bill is right-
if you guys keep the barage of anti-sentiment, tuners are going to see the Z community as a bunch of whiners and cheapos. (let us not be like those on the Bimmer forums!! ha...)
Just let those companies get products out.. their words (truthful or not) will show in the hard numbers of owners in this forum and let their product speak for them..
Obviously 3 blown motors in 20 cars (or even 100+ as so ATI claims) isnt really *that* great of a success rate, but hey, at least they're actively engaging in some investigation into why those cars failed and looking for alternative measures..... Vortech has proven to me personally of having a good blower... i'm not going to let 1 rep decide the entire fate of their product just because he posted some BS...
being on the receiving end of alot of negative posts in the past.. i know how it feels like to be on the defensive... give those companies some breathing room... if they're dedicated and "meant to be", they will try everything in their power to prove it.
--cheston.
11-19-2003, 12:01 PM
#66
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Cheston, sorry but when a company does not support what they sell and does not offer technical advise to owners of their products, I am going to blast them be it a SC, TT kit, or a microwave oven. If you remember, when PE was not fully supporting you, I was critical of their lack of support.
We are the consumers here and the car owners. Vendors and manufactures must offer us a quality product and adequate service of that product. That is why we are all here, to learn from each other and decide our best options for modding our 350Z's. These companies must meet our needs, not us meet theirs.
As Max just stated on superchargersonline.com, he spent over $5000 for the kit, had to figure out what went wrong and has spent a total of over $15,000 on the "inexpensive" SC kit. I dont think anyone here would be happy with that experence he had.
We are the consumers here and the car owners. Vendors and manufactures must offer us a quality product and adequate service of that product. That is why we are all here, to learn from each other and decide our best options for modding our 350Z's. These companies must meet our needs, not us meet theirs.
As Max just stated on superchargersonline.com, he spent over $5000 for the kit, had to figure out what went wrong and has spent a total of over $15,000 on the "inexpensive" SC kit. I dont think anyone here would be happy with that experence he had.
Last edited by zland; 11-19-2003 at 12:10 PM.
11-19-2003, 12:37 PM
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Sorry fella's I know this is off topic but I just can't resist. Zland, you are the biggest post ***** I have ever seen ever dude! 1800 post since november??? That's almost an average of what...6 post/day 7 days a week since you joined? BTW, I'm only bustin your ball$. You bring up very good points in these forums and are a great contributer so please don't take this personal. Please don't stop!!!! 
11-19-2003, 12:49 PM
#68
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Originally posted by jesseenglish
I was correlating the if they did the job incorrectly it is their fault, not ATI's. Being a certified installer in no way moves the blame over to ATI.
I was correlating the if they did the job incorrectly it is their fault, not ATI's. Being a certified installer in no way moves the blame over to ATI.
Where is the follow-up with the tuner to find out why?
Where is the follow-up with the car to find out why?
Where is the check-and-balences on whom ATI chooses as 'certified'.
Obviously if the tuner is at fault, ATI is doing themselves diservice (and reputation) by not dealing with the tuner or their 'certification'.
11-19-2003, 12:59 PM
#69
Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this a sign that ATI might soon break their silence on fuel management issues
my main point:
let their product speak for themselves. let them prove worthy of our business.
if its a bad product. people are going to know. and companies will have to provide the support to fix it or die trying.
edit: i have proven every project i've worked on...
let their product speak for themselves. let them prove worthy of our business.
if its a bad product. people are going to know. and companies will have to provide the support to fix it or die trying.
edit: i have proven every project i've worked on...
Last edited by Chebosto; 11-19-2003 at 01:53 PM.
11-19-2003, 03:27 PM
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I really think the problem lies within the plenum design..A person I know just had their car Dyno tuned and a Day later blew his #6 (drivers side rear) cylinder...I witnessed the dyno, and it was tuned to a flawless fuel mixture and was not and did not run lean on the dyno at all...Next day..Kaboom...We took the #6 plug out and the electrode was bent and the top of the piston had all kinds of marks on it from detonating...We perfomed a compression test and found that cylinder to be about 1/2 of the rest..Obviously everyone who has blow up a motor has had the #5,6 cylinders go(with the exception of Smithstown..Thats another topic all together).This leads me to believe one of the two...
1)the rear cylinders get more air than the rest and when tuning you only get an AVERAGE of what the engine is putting out..So at an optimum A/F ratio you still may have a lean condition in the rear two cylinders..Not good..
2)The kit needs a timing control of some kind..All the other SC out there are including a timing control with it..Why is ATI using fuel mixture and intercooling to eliminate detonation???
I just installed the ATI on my car and have no problems but I refused to get it tuned..I will stick with ATI's Stock settings for their FMU..I know it could get a few more horses but until someone figures out the engine management on this thing I am fine at 350hp...
1)the rear cylinders get more air than the rest and when tuning you only get an AVERAGE of what the engine is putting out..So at an optimum A/F ratio you still may have a lean condition in the rear two cylinders..Not good..
2)The kit needs a timing control of some kind..All the other SC out there are including a timing control with it..Why is ATI using fuel mixture and intercooling to eliminate detonation???
I just installed the ATI on my car and have no problems but I refused to get it tuned..I will stick with ATI's Stock settings for their FMU..I know it could get a few more horses but until someone figures out the engine management on this thing I am fine at 350hp...
11-19-2003, 03:29 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this a sign that ATI might soon break their silence on fuel management issues
Originally posted by Del350
It's kinda hard to take that for what it is, coming from a guy who is trying to always sell things.
It's kinda hard to take that for what it is, coming from a guy who is trying to always sell things.
11-19-2003, 03:42 PM
#73
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Oh one more thing...BOOST hasnt killed these engines..Detonation had..Detonation that was caused by poor fuel mixture and or bad timing..Just my 2 cents...
And I believe the death toll is a confirmed 4 at this time...
And I believe the death toll is a confirmed 4 at this time...
11-19-2003, 04:05 PM
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Cheston is a good guy when you meet him. He gets allot of flak and get the wrong picture of him in your head until you deal with him and his friends and realize he wants to help people. I consider him a pioneer for our cars. Sorry for butting in but I wanted to add that. The TS ECU got hecka crap at first and it turns out it is top knotch. And who submitted their ECU for months for this? Cheston man!
11-19-2003, 06:08 PM
#75
I totally agree 12SezZ,
As for going FI, I'm looking into the timing issue as well, I'm curious as to what exactly the emanage is capable of, and on ther other end I would love to have the spool of the PE TT's, but the price is just harsh for only 4psi, then going with TS ECU, plus a PBC is another OUCH for running a more than adequate 7psi. I'm thinking about the Greddy kit just cause it's cheaper, but I'd still one to have some kind of timing solution on my hands just in case, but who knows, lets see how the knot regarding these kits and general issues all unravels....
As for going FI, I'm looking into the timing issue as well, I'm curious as to what exactly the emanage is capable of, and on ther other end I would love to have the spool of the PE TT's, but the price is just harsh for only 4psi, then going with TS ECU, plus a PBC is another OUCH for running a more than adequate 7psi. I'm thinking about the Greddy kit just cause it's cheaper, but I'd still one to have some kind of timing solution on my hands just in case, but who knows, lets see how the knot regarding these kits and general issues all unravels....
11-19-2003, 06:34 PM
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Well guys I can tell you that Stillen spent many days on my car even before they knew about the Sport Z test and they might have been quick to release the 5 pound boost version without an intercooler but my car is a beast with the 7 pounds intercooled. Everyone was telling me at the beginning that I made a mistake by purchasing the Stillen supercharger. I believed it but am so happy that I actually did purchase it. So far so good on my intercooled SC. I know how it is to have your car not function properly and get damaged by someone's product. It is very disheartening. I feel for evreyone out there who isnt satisfied with the ATI. My 2 cents is that you each write a letter to them and CC your lawyer. No company wants to deal with the cost of a lawsuit or bad reputation caused by one. If they are found negligent it will cost them a lot more than the cost of helping to rebuild just the blown motors.
No one wants to have a recall of their product.
Good luck to everyone.
No one wants to have a recall of their product.
Good luck to everyone.
11-19-2003, 06:52 PM
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Hey guys,
OK I have a bunch of friends that are lawyers and asked them some questions as to what each of you with a blown motor can do. First off, my lawyers want to see the limited warranty document from ATI that came in the package. If anyone has theirs forward it to skk100@aol.com. My lawyer was talking a lot of jargon but he explained to me that there is something call the UCC commercial code- Implied warranty of Fitness. This statute states that a product must do what it is suppossed to do. If it doesn't you could potentially have a claim depending on what the limited warranty states. Even if the limited warranty states they are not responsible then you might have a product liability case which states that the product this company is selling can cause harm. Well in my opinion driving down the freeway and having your ATI blow up and cause internal engine damage and cause your engine to cease at 60 or 70mph seems a little dangerous to me.
Like I said I hate seeing people getting screwed by companies who promise things they cant deliver.
OK I have a bunch of friends that are lawyers and asked them some questions as to what each of you with a blown motor can do. First off, my lawyers want to see the limited warranty document from ATI that came in the package. If anyone has theirs forward it to skk100@aol.com. My lawyer was talking a lot of jargon but he explained to me that there is something call the UCC commercial code- Implied warranty of Fitness. This statute states that a product must do what it is suppossed to do. If it doesn't you could potentially have a claim depending on what the limited warranty states. Even if the limited warranty states they are not responsible then you might have a product liability case which states that the product this company is selling can cause harm. Well in my opinion driving down the freeway and having your ATI blow up and cause internal engine damage and cause your engine to cease at 60 or 70mph seems a little dangerous to me.
Like I said I hate seeing people getting screwed by companies who promise things they cant deliver.
11-19-2003, 07:14 PM
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yeah but what if the product did what it was supposed to do and the tuner caused the problem? how do you know who to blame?
also how much hp did you stillen s/c w/ intercooler make?
also how much hp did you stillen s/c w/ intercooler make?
11-19-2003, 07:29 PM
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skk100:
1. Thanks for stepping up to the plate and offering legal assitance, that is big of you IMO.
2. I am thankful for you, the Stillen IC'ed your car. I hope you get many miles of happiness on it, that is what this is all about. I am looking forward to seeing you on test day. It will be fun, no doubt.
Jeff - zland
1. Thanks for stepping up to the plate and offering legal assitance, that is big of you IMO.
2. I am thankful for you, the Stillen IC'ed your car. I hope you get many miles of happiness on it, that is what this is all about. I am looking forward to seeing you on test day. It will be fun, no doubt.
Jeff - zland