Brett@AwesomeZ

Water to air systems work well in theory, but the problem is having a reservoir large enough to keep the fluid cool enough to actually make it cool better than an air to air system.

In other words, that water will surely start out cooler than ambient air, but it won't take long to heat it up beyond the ambient air that an air to air system would see. I would rock it in a drag car, but certainly not in an auto x car or even a street car unless the setup just didn't allow for the extra plumbing.

I do applaud your efforts though, just need some more time at the drawing board to get this thing ironed out. If you are going to be selling this kit, you might want to size the turbos larger simply for the fact that some people are going to want to get higher power levels.

That was one of the big problems with the Turbonetics kit (besides other design flaws) if you wanted to turn up the boost at all it was pretty much a wasted effort and a lot of people out-grew the kit really fast.

350Z400rwhp

iTrader: (4)

Jattus, I have defended you and assumed you are legitimate and know what you are doing. I even saw your website so I know you have made kits for other cars. That being said, you need to take the advice and criticism these guys are giving you. Scrap the 7th injector idea and the water to air intercooler. There will be enough complications in building this kit and you will want to keep it as simple as possible. The 7th injector does not work well on the vq because of the front cylinder starvation. I know that you assume that the air/fuel mixture will be the same and the amount of air being forced into the cylinders may be different but at the same air/fuel ratio so it shouldn't matter. What matters is that Stillen used this 7th injector method years ago and it was shown that this causes motors to blow. Why is it so hard to just upgrade the injectors and add a walboro fuel pump? This is a tried and true method and it's simple? The cost of these components is very cheap and provides peace of mind. It also is the "best" and "latest and greatest" way to deliver fuel. Why use "old and busted" technology if you don't have to and it won't cost much money to use the "new hottness"? If it is a cost issue the why are you considering the air to water intercooler? You will need a reservoir, hoses, water pump and an intercooler. This is overcomplicated and will show no gains for street use. Sure you could load your reservoir with ice and make a few passes at the 1/4 mile track but it's overcomplicated, not good for street use and more expensive. A few guys have found and proven that some of these "ebay" intercoolers are preforming decently and can be found for under $200. Again the main point here is keep things as simple as possible. Yes you will also need a piggyback for your ecu, utecs are very good and very inexpensive. Many tuners know how to tune them and this is another factor you should consider if you are trying to make a kit to sell. Nothing wrong with using the small turbos for the quick spool up but you might want to be able to offer the ability to add larger turbos if someone wants to add your kit to a built motor.

Jattus

How well has modifying the MAF signal to the ECU worked out as far as fuel tuning? Is there a certain limit that the MAF voltage needs to be capped at before something such as a CEL or fuel cut happens?
Do you know approx. what the duty cycle of the OEM injectors are running at @WOT near redline?

350Z400rwhp

iTrader: (4)

5v

the stock injectors are 290cc, not sure of the duty cycle with the stock n/a motor. You need at least 440cc injectors if you are boosting. Turbonetics got away with using 390cc but 440s are easier to find. I would recommend 500 or 600cc injectors so your kit would be expandable for higher boost or larger turbos. I have 600cc deatschworks and they work great with my utec.

Boosted Performance

iTrader: (14)

You need to do a lot of research, the answers are here. I don't know if there is a point though as you refuse to listen.

The stock fuel system or a 7th injector with air/water cooling are all bad ideas. Not sure if you are trying to cut the cost way down, but all of these thigs you are trying to do are a good way to blow a motor.



The idea is good, and I have already started building a kit you speak of. A bolt on kit to the OEM/aftermaket headers, but there are space issues to deal with as well. Unless you are very creative, this won't fly.

You won't know how hard it is untill you try it.

Jattus

I listen to valid points. I'm not going to pay attention to points that have nothing backing them up that's for sure. I'll be the first to admit, I don't know everything, but I do know a lot, and I would like to learn more on the subject...
You just said that these are all bad ideas, then immediately say the idea is good btw?

Like I said, my personal experience with water coolers and sub injectors have been that they work extremely well (between all of the 4 cylinders and 6 cylinders), I've over doubled the horsepower on those motors with this setup with a shittier fuel system than the OEM 3.5L here.
So if someone has a point, then back it up. Just saying something is a bad idea but nothing there to back it up, or this is just something you heard, or something you think but in reality have no clue, makes you look ignorant.

350z400rwhp has been giving good advice and listing reasons to these so thats good.

So far I've gone over the compressor maps of the td05-big16gs and like I said earlier, they flow well over what the engine can handle. It will flow well for a built engine even. So you random guys that come out of the wood work saying they are too small, just because you think they are too small, apparently need to go do more research themselves on what a properly sized turbo is...
If they are too small, then show me why? You can't can you?
But yes there are a few turbos that will bolt in place without fitment issues.

On to the 7th injector, I have another question...
So lets say hypothetically two front cylinders are starved of fuel like you mentioned earlier. This means they are receiving more air than fuel, considering the injectors are pulsed the same, just the timing is off between. So now we have fuel atomized within the air stream, more air to those spots with less fuel should now have more fuel, and would be evened out? This seems to make sense to me but I could be wrong....? Just an idea I had.

Also, the water is going to be constantly dropped to as close to ambient temperature as it can. The water reservoir is easy to figure out. Lets go over a hypothetical stuation. Say the most someone is going to be WOT at a time is 16 seconds (and from a dead stop your going to be going pretty fast after 16 seconds). Now lets say your water pump is 10 GPM. So in 16 seconds your pump is going to flow 2.67 gallons of water ( (16seconds/60seconds_per_minute)*10gallons_per_minute = 2.67 gallons.
Considering you don't want the same water to reach the core twice in this run, 2.67 gallons is a good idea for where to base your water reservoir around. As long as the water pump is on, you will not get heat soak. End of story. The water will not constantly increase over the period of X amount of time making the water cooler worthless. I've measured intake temps on the systems I've done and they have always been the same. You can even touch the cooler with your hand and its cool.

And yes I've already started working on the project and noticed the space issues. But I am pretty crafty

Boosted Performance

iTrader: (14)

No, again, you are not reading it right. I said the water/air cooling, stock injectors/7th injector are a bad idea.

The kit is a good idea, and like I said I have been lookin at this for a while, and now that it's winter I have started the work on it.

I did not say the turbos are too small, those are perfect, and were my number one choice, right after the TD05 18g turbos. The 16g will flow for 600hp.

binder

iTrader: (8)

You need to take a physics class on thermodynamics. You are very correct that water takes longer to heat up but you're forgetting the huge fact that it takes longer for water to release it's heat also. If you are cooling 180* intake temps and transfering that heat into the water then you have to release that heat from the water at another location. it will happen slow so depenidng on how long you run the car the water will eventually heat up. If it's absorbing more heat than it can dissipate means it will continue to heat up.

You said autocross, well an autocross lasts longer than 16 seconds so you're going to continue to heat that water up. Then when you shut down between races you'll hvae to swap the water or it will be hot too.

So yes, you are chosing turbos for an autocross car but an intercooler for a drag car. On that note, when we go hit the twisties in my car that spools at 4300 i never drop out of boost. Shifting through the corners i always keep the revs up. So tell whoever is going to drive the boosted car to keep his car above his spool.

go-fast

do you have a license to ill?

Reality350

iTrader: (25)

Beastie Boys!
-You are definitely in my age group...

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

air-water work just fine. you just properly size the radiator it uses.

Jattus

I think it will be cool too just for the plane fact of it being different. How many front mount setups are there for this car? A ton! Nice to see different things IMO, and see how well they work out.

And yeah lots of pros/cons, etc. Its like debating whats better, a turbocharger or a supercharger.... when it comes down to it they are just different, and have their own benefits and draw backs.... more of a personal preference I suppose.

binder

iTrader: (8)

well, ya, it is about preference but you're choosing turbos for autocross and a cooling system for drag. You are choosing things that aren't ideal for the use of the car or you are confused on what the car is going to be used on.

XKR

iTrader: (1)

I am very impressed with the advised given on the Water/air setup. Coming from the road race world....those are the exact advise given when we were considering that setup......The only time i have seen it successful in aftermarket is when placed on a drag car...

I have responded to the OP on G35driver......but the OP insist that if Bugatti can use it...so can he....Most if not all of the cars that use the watercooled system are cars with rear motors....the reason is obvious.....Porsche is ONE of very few rear motor cars that has the ability to cool with air/air....When they went from air cooled motors to water cool....they experimented with the water/air coolers....but found that it would have to be a large setup that would defeat the idea of weight savings and still would not be an advantage....But as someone stated...you cant get around Physics.

Someone also stated that this idea is really good.....ON PAPER. The Z hardly has room for an oil catch can....much more a water/air setup.

binder

iTrader: (8)

amen. I hate how people latch on to 1 idea that is used on a production vehicle and they think it will work for everything. There are MANY more factors involved with production vehicles than racing vehicles. Emissions is a huge factor in there.

I would assume a water-air cooler would keep more CONSISTANT temps for everyday driving therefore a production car would be able to use this system. They don't care about keeping temps extremely low, they just want as few fluctuations in the temps for easier tuning which would be offered by the specific heat buffer that water would keep.

Like xkr says also, a huge factor is location. Running 3" intercooler piping to the front of the car then all the way to the back is going to add a lot of volume so slower spool on a rear mount car. That's TONS of piping in relation to the small amount of piping change it would take to run from a manifold mounted turbo to a FMIC.

ashtrojan2008

iTrader: (1)

The water to air intercooler on my alltrac gets hot as fawk, you can't touch it. Maybe it's partially because of the heat it takes out of the air, and i can't log air temps onit, but it can't be cooling that much. Like Jeff said, it's probably more consistency than low temp. Anyway, even Toyota switched to air to air ic on the later alltracs, and most people swap to that set up. I do like the lack of extra piping with that set up though.
And i think that's a great turbo set up for someone looking for a super fun daily and not going for crazy numbers. The td05h-16g's on my 300zx are making over 600whp on pump gas.

Forget the 7th injector. Too easy to swap them. Also op, you need something to control timing, not just fuel by interpolating the maf signal. That's why my stock motor didn't last with the emanage.. No timing control. And utecs are very inexpensive and work well.
I waited a coupe of days to post to make sure this thread was going somewhere...

Ross

binder

iTrader: (8)

getting an osiris tune is even cheaper yet. it's only 299$ for the flash plus dyno time. 1/3 the cost of a new utec or about half the cost of a used unit.

To go even more basic (which i wouldn't on a turbo setup) you could use an SS box. You can snag them for cheap and they are very simple. timing, a/f and speed density tuning. The only drawback is i heard that it doesn't do well controlling injectors past 600cc.

Quamen

iTrader: (14)

You should ditch the 7th injector idea if you haven't already based on other people's input. You can at least buy a set of 380cc injectors on the forums for dirt cheap from a TN kit. 440's are also easy to find.

Jattus

Finally got some pics of the prototype for ya, let me know what you think!

















I powdercoated the exhaust components with a high temperature black satin finish. Everything should stay pretty cool down there also considering the locations of the turbos, plus they are both oil and water cooled.
After we finish dyno tuning it next week, going to take all of the charge pipes off to powdercoat, and clean everything up a bit. But so far it runs great! I'm also pleased with how the collector came out (I'll post some pics of it when I remove the charge pipes, since its kind of hard to see).
I decided to go ahead and CAD up an oil pan spacer with a fitting for the oil return (you can see it in the first pic).
I have both of the external wastegate springs set for 4psi, I'm going to tune it like that first, then work my way up to 8psi and see how much power its making.

Vas_Z33

iTrader: (39)

Im impressed!!