G35 Twin Turbo Project
11-15-2010, 08:52 AM
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G35 Twin Turbo Project
Hello, I'm new here but my name is Matt from Jattus Performance.
Working on twin turbocharging a 2003 Infiniti G35 Coupe, so figured I would make a topic to post pictures, progress, ideas, etc. And also to hopefully get some feedback, to see what you guys think or how it could be better.
Here is the game plan so far:
2x TD05-big16g water and oil cooled turbos
2x 38mm external wastegates
water to air intercooler system
2" charge pipes from each turbo merging into 2.5" to water intercooler, then to 2.75" to throttle body.
2.25" intakes, putting both of the cone filters in each fender well.
perfect power smt8t fuel controller used to fire a 7th injector (80lb injector)
2.5bar external map sensor paired up with smt8t
We are going to set both of the wastegates to 4psi for starters and tune like that. After that is dialed in then up to 8psi, which is where we will most likely keep the boost pressure (our goal is around 400whp).
I also want to utilize the OEM exhaust manifolds, and have the turbos bolt inbetween the OEM exhaust manifold flange, and the remaining exhaust. This will put the turbochargers a bit lower than normal, and will require an oil pump spliced in for the oil return correct? (Where is a good location for this now that we have a pump? Just oil pan?).
So far my only concerns is the space restrictions for charge piping, and oil return, but other than that it seems that it will work out pretty good.
One of the other main goals is to build a turbo kit for the car thats more easily bolted on to existing parts (e.g. bolts to exhaust manifolds), more of a universal approach to the fuel system (e.g. the 7th injector), and get reasonable power out of the kit.
Working on twin turbocharging a 2003 Infiniti G35 Coupe, so figured I would make a topic to post pictures, progress, ideas, etc. And also to hopefully get some feedback, to see what you guys think or how it could be better.
Here is the game plan so far:
2x TD05-big16g water and oil cooled turbos
2x 38mm external wastegates
water to air intercooler system
2" charge pipes from each turbo merging into 2.5" to water intercooler, then to 2.75" to throttle body.
2.25" intakes, putting both of the cone filters in each fender well.
perfect power smt8t fuel controller used to fire a 7th injector (80lb injector)
2.5bar external map sensor paired up with smt8t
We are going to set both of the wastegates to 4psi for starters and tune like that. After that is dialed in then up to 8psi, which is where we will most likely keep the boost pressure (our goal is around 400whp).
I also want to utilize the OEM exhaust manifolds, and have the turbos bolt inbetween the OEM exhaust manifold flange, and the remaining exhaust. This will put the turbochargers a bit lower than normal, and will require an oil pump spliced in for the oil return correct? (Where is a good location for this now that we have a pump? Just oil pan?).
So far my only concerns is the space restrictions for charge piping, and oil return, but other than that it seems that it will work out pretty good.
One of the other main goals is to build a turbo kit for the car thats more easily bolted on to existing parts (e.g. bolts to exhaust manifolds), more of a universal approach to the fuel system (e.g. the 7th injector), and get reasonable power out of the kit.
11-15-2010, 10:58 AM
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Why an air to water intercooler? Like Tyler said, don't do the 7th injector method, it's a 90's way of doing something and goes right up there with using a FMU. I think speed force racing has their turbos mounted where you are thinking and I'm pretty sure you will need that scavange pump.
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11-15-2010, 01:33 PM
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Well so far got a lot of interesting responses with completely empty remarks w/ no reasons or backing them up lol. I would prefer for people to be constructive with me. I'll start with the meaningful response first.
I like the water to airs because there is less volume of air to fill up before boost builds, so you get less turbo lag. Water to air intercooler cores are also much more efficient (e.g. thermal conductivity is much greater between air/water than air/air), the cores are much smaller, and the pressure drop across the core is minimal compared to air/air.
I also like the 7th injector because of its simplicity and cost. Sure I can swap out all 6 injectors, fuel pump, and get an ecu reflash, or use a piggy back to tune it, but its less expensive to just put a 7th injector. Off boost the car will drive like stock this way also, and a sub injector works great at low boost levels (which is what this car is going with anyways).Plus those OEM injectors paired up with one 80lb injector is a good amount of fuel supply for the power level.
But thanks for the response!
Can you recommend a oil pump that people have been having good results with? And where were they plumbing the oil back into the system?
I also had a question reguarding oil feed (did some searching but couldn't find anything?)... I'm using an oil filter sandwich plate with -4AN line, which splits into two -4AN lines which then feeds each turbo. Normally for a single mitsubishi turbo this is generally too much oil pressure and will blow oil past the seals, but since there are 2 turbos will this work? Or am I going to still need to restrict? Remember these aren't ball berring turbos which require less oil pressure either...
Why an air to water intercooler? Like Tyler said, don't do the 7th injector method, it's a 90's way of doing something and goes right up there with using a FMU. I think speed force racing has their turbos mounted where you are thinking and I'm pretty sure you will need that scavange pump.
I also like the 7th injector because of its simplicity and cost. Sure I can swap out all 6 injectors, fuel pump, and get an ecu reflash, or use a piggy back to tune it, but its less expensive to just put a 7th injector. Off boost the car will drive like stock this way also, and a sub injector works great at low boost levels (which is what this car is going with anyways).Plus those OEM injectors paired up with one 80lb injector is a good amount of fuel supply for the power level.
But thanks for the response!
Can you recommend a oil pump that people have been having good results with? And where were they plumbing the oil back into the system?
I also had a question reguarding oil feed (did some searching but couldn't find anything?)... I'm using an oil filter sandwich plate with -4AN line, which splits into two -4AN lines which then feeds each turbo. Normally for a single mitsubishi turbo this is generally too much oil pressure and will blow oil past the seals, but since there are 2 turbos will this work? Or am I going to still need to restrict? Remember these aren't ball berring turbos which require less oil pressure either...
11-15-2010, 02:11 PM
#13
Well so far got a lot of interesting responses with completely empty remarks w/ no reasons or backing them up lol. I would prefer for people to be constructive with me. I'll start with the meaningful response first.
I like the water to airs because there is less volume of air to fill up before boost builds, so you get less turbo lag. Water to air intercooler cores are also much more efficient (e.g. thermal conductivity is much greater between air/water than air/air), the cores are much smaller, and the pressure drop across the core is minimal compared to air/air.
I also like the 7th injector because of its simplicity and cost. Sure I can swap out all 6 injectors, fuel pump, and get an ecu reflash, or use a piggy back to tune it, but its less expensive to just put a 7th injector. Off boost the car will drive like stock this way also, and a sub injector works great at low boost levels (which is what this car is going with anyways).Plus those OEM injectors paired up with one 80lb injector is a good amount of fuel supply for the power level.
But thanks for the response!
Can you recommend a oil pump that people have been having good results with? And where were they plumbing the oil back into the system?
I also had a question reguarding oil feed (did some searching but couldn't find anything?)... I'm using an oil filter sandwich plate with -4AN line, which splits into two -4AN lines which then feeds each turbo. Normally for a single mitsubishi turbo this is generally too much oil pressure and will blow oil past the seals, but since there are 2 turbos will this work? Or am I going to still need to restrict? Remember these aren't ball berring turbos which require less oil pressure either...
I like the water to airs because there is less volume of air to fill up before boost builds, so you get less turbo lag. Water to air intercooler cores are also much more efficient (e.g. thermal conductivity is much greater between air/water than air/air), the cores are much smaller, and the pressure drop across the core is minimal compared to air/air.
I also like the 7th injector because of its simplicity and cost. Sure I can swap out all 6 injectors, fuel pump, and get an ecu reflash, or use a piggy back to tune it, but its less expensive to just put a 7th injector. Off boost the car will drive like stock this way also, and a sub injector works great at low boost levels (which is what this car is going with anyways).Plus those OEM injectors paired up with one 80lb injector is a good amount of fuel supply for the power level.
But thanks for the response!
Can you recommend a oil pump that people have been having good results with? And where were they plumbing the oil back into the system?
I also had a question reguarding oil feed (did some searching but couldn't find anything?)... I'm using an oil filter sandwich plate with -4AN line, which splits into two -4AN lines which then feeds each turbo. Normally for a single mitsubishi turbo this is generally too much oil pressure and will blow oil past the seals, but since there are 2 turbos will this work? Or am I going to still need to restrict? Remember these aren't ball berring turbos which require less oil pressure either...
11-15-2010, 03:32 PM
#14
water to air is a good design on paper, but fitting the tank, heat exchanger and pump becomes an issue quickly. other than that, no reason to to try it.
again, nothing wrong with a 7th injector setup. but in this day with 100$ walbros and dime a dozen EMS solutions, its easier to just to do that than fabricate another injector port and mess with nitrous type fueling
Wanna fabricate something cool, design a lower plenum that can accommodate dual injectors/ cylinder.
I first had one of those rebuilt shurflos to scavenge my oil. But it was made of plastic and cracked. Now I use an Exa-pump. metal body and gears, not diaphram. much better design.
I run a single 4an to 2 3an with no restrictors. seems to be just fine.
also, 16g's are WAYYYY too small for this car. TD06 20g's are appropriate sized.
again, nothing wrong with a 7th injector setup. but in this day with 100$ walbros and dime a dozen EMS solutions, its easier to just to do that than fabricate another injector port and mess with nitrous type fueling
Wanna fabricate something cool, design a lower plenum that can accommodate dual injectors/ cylinder.
I first had one of those rebuilt shurflos to scavenge my oil. But it was made of plastic and cracked. Now I use an Exa-pump. metal body and gears, not diaphram. much better design.
I run a single 4an to 2 3an with no restrictors. seems to be just fine.
also, 16g's are WAYYYY too small for this car. TD06 20g's are appropriate sized.
Well so far got a lot of interesting responses with completely empty remarks w/ no reasons or backing them up lol. I would prefer for people to be constructive with me. I'll start with the meaningful response first.
I like the water to airs because there is less volume of air to fill up before boost builds, so you get less turbo lag. Water to air intercooler cores are also much more efficient (e.g. thermal conductivity is much greater between air/water than air/air), the cores are much smaller, and the pressure drop across the core is minimal compared to air/air.
I also like the 7th injector because of its simplicity and cost. Sure I can swap out all 6 injectors, fuel pump, and get an ecu reflash, or use a piggy back to tune it, but its less expensive to just put a 7th injector. Off boost the car will drive like stock this way also, and a sub injector works great at low boost levels (which is what this car is going with anyways).Plus those OEM injectors paired up with one 80lb injector is a good amount of fuel supply for the power level.
But thanks for the response!
Can you recommend a oil pump that people have been having good results with? And where were they plumbing the oil back into the system?
I also had a question reguarding oil feed (did some searching but couldn't find anything?)... I'm using an oil filter sandwich plate with -4AN line, which splits into two -4AN lines which then feeds each turbo. Normally for a single mitsubishi turbo this is generally too much oil pressure and will blow oil past the seals, but since there are 2 turbos will this work? Or am I going to still need to restrict? Remember these aren't ball berring turbos which require less oil pressure either...
I like the water to airs because there is less volume of air to fill up before boost builds, so you get less turbo lag. Water to air intercooler cores are also much more efficient (e.g. thermal conductivity is much greater between air/water than air/air), the cores are much smaller, and the pressure drop across the core is minimal compared to air/air.
I also like the 7th injector because of its simplicity and cost. Sure I can swap out all 6 injectors, fuel pump, and get an ecu reflash, or use a piggy back to tune it, but its less expensive to just put a 7th injector. Off boost the car will drive like stock this way also, and a sub injector works great at low boost levels (which is what this car is going with anyways).Plus those OEM injectors paired up with one 80lb injector is a good amount of fuel supply for the power level.
But thanks for the response!
Can you recommend a oil pump that people have been having good results with? And where were they plumbing the oil back into the system?
I also had a question reguarding oil feed (did some searching but couldn't find anything?)... I'm using an oil filter sandwich plate with -4AN line, which splits into two -4AN lines which then feeds each turbo. Normally for a single mitsubishi turbo this is generally too much oil pressure and will blow oil past the seals, but since there are 2 turbos will this work? Or am I going to still need to restrict? Remember these aren't ball berring turbos which require less oil pressure either...
Last edited by str8dum1; 11-15-2010 at 03:33 PM.
11-15-2010, 03:44 PM
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water to air is a good design on paper, but fitting the tank, heat exchanger and pump becomes an issue quickly. other than that, no reason to to try it.
again, nothing wrong with a 7th injector setup. but in this day with 100$ walbros and dime a dozen EMS solutions, its easier to just to do that than fabricate another injector port and mess with nitrous type fueling
Wanna fabricate something cool, design a lower plenum that can accommodate dual injectors/ cylinder.
I first had one of those rebuilt shurflos to scavenge my oil. But it was made of plastic and cracked. Now I use an Exa-pump. metal body and gears, not diaphram. much better design.
I run a single 4an to 2 3an with no restrictors. seems to be just fine.
also, 16g's are WAYYYY too small for this car. TD06 20g's are appropriate sized.
again, nothing wrong with a 7th injector setup. but in this day with 100$ walbros and dime a dozen EMS solutions, its easier to just to do that than fabricate another injector port and mess with nitrous type fueling
Wanna fabricate something cool, design a lower plenum that can accommodate dual injectors/ cylinder.
I first had one of those rebuilt shurflos to scavenge my oil. But it was made of plastic and cracked. Now I use an Exa-pump. metal body and gears, not diaphram. much better design.
I run a single 4an to 2 3an with no restrictors. seems to be just fine.
also, 16g's are WAYYYY too small for this car. TD06 20g's are appropriate sized.
I already have the water/air cooler, reservoir, heat exchanger, and pump mounted in car (I'll post up some pics soon). Yeah it was definitely tricky to figure out where everything should go, but it looks nice!
I like the idea of the dual fuel rail kit, I already make one for a 4 cylinder...:
It would have to raise the intake manifold up 1 inch though, would this be a clearance issue w/ the hood you think?
I will also check out that oil pump.
What turbochargers do you use for your -4AN to split -3AN oil feed?
I looked up a compressor map for those turbos and they seem fine though?
This is a 3.5l, so picture a single engine that is 1.75l, with a single td05-big16g turbo, wouldn't you say thats a pretty decent size for that engine? That could even be considered a bit on the big side from an OEM stand point? I could put bigger turbos on, but all its going to do is give me more turbo lag I think.
Thanks again for the feedback.
Oh one last question... I couldn't find this answered anywhere. Does the oil return on the turbos have to be a downward slope to the pump? Or can the pump be higher up and will suck oil up to it and feed it to wherever? Whats a good location to put oil back?
11-15-2010, 04:06 PM
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Thanks for the response!
I already have the water/air cooler, reservoir, heat exchanger, and pump mounted in car (I'll post up some pics soon). Yeah it was definitely tricky to figure out where everything should go, but it looks nice!
I like the idea of the dual fuel rail kit, I already make one for a 4 cylinder...:
It would have to raise the intake manifold up 1 inch though, would this be a clearance issue w/ the hood you think?
I will also check out that oil pump.
What turbochargers do you use for your -4AN to split -3AN oil feed?
I looked up a compressor map for those turbos and they seem fine though?
This is a 3.5l, so picture a single engine that is 1.75l, with a single td05-big16g turbo, wouldn't you say thats a pretty decent size for that engine? That could even be considered a bit on the big side from an OEM stand point? I could put bigger turbos on, but all its going to do is give me more turbo lag I think.
Thanks again for the feedback.
Oh one last question... I couldn't find this answered anywhere. Does the oil return on the turbos have to be a downward slope to the pump? Or can the pump be higher up and will suck oil up to it and feed it to wherever? Whats a good location to put oil back?
I already have the water/air cooler, reservoir, heat exchanger, and pump mounted in car (I'll post up some pics soon). Yeah it was definitely tricky to figure out where everything should go, but it looks nice!
I like the idea of the dual fuel rail kit, I already make one for a 4 cylinder...:
It would have to raise the intake manifold up 1 inch though, would this be a clearance issue w/ the hood you think?
I will also check out that oil pump.
What turbochargers do you use for your -4AN to split -3AN oil feed?
I looked up a compressor map for those turbos and they seem fine though?
This is a 3.5l, so picture a single engine that is 1.75l, with a single td05-big16g turbo, wouldn't you say thats a pretty decent size for that engine? That could even be considered a bit on the big side from an OEM stand point? I could put bigger turbos on, but all its going to do is give me more turbo lag I think.
Thanks again for the feedback.
Oh one last question... I couldn't find this answered anywhere. Does the oil return on the turbos have to be a downward slope to the pump? Or can the pump be higher up and will suck oil up to it and feed it to wherever? Whats a good location to put oil back?
11-15-2010, 04:21 PM
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forget the headaches OP and just go with this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/INFIN...Q5fAccessories
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/INFIN...Q5fAccessories
11-15-2010, 07:31 PM
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The oil pan spacer looks like a pretty good idea, I can probably just CAD up the oil pan gasket and waterjet it on 1" thick aluminum.
-Matt
-Matt
11-15-2010, 08:23 PM
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You will also need to extend the oil pick-up by the same amount. It has a gasket too so you can worrk off that the same way you are planning to do the oil pan spacer.