Most HP made with stock headers
you guys ever look into sg's headers for example? almost twice the cost, and they have hundreds of hours into the design, R&D, fabrication, etc. but it works. proven gains, beaten to hell and still holding up strong. worth the price tag.
so imho, while the price may be a bit steep for these products, they are a 1 time investment. to me, that sells itself.
Fair enough
again, fair enough
the fact that we are the only ST manufacturer that did make headers to work with our ST had something to do with it. but your view is valid, we can throw another motor together and do the same shot with manifolds, but man they are ugly.
the JIC manifolds you are talking about cost as much as our headers.
And what you are describing of fabbing your own turbo kit is a skill most don't have, nor do they want to afford a custom setup.
again, fair enough
the fact that we are the only ST manufacturer that did make headers to work with our ST had something to do with it. but your view is valid, we can throw another motor together and do the same shot with manifolds, but man they are ugly.
the JIC manifolds you are talking about cost as much as our headers.
And what you are describing of fabbing your own turbo kit is a skill most don't have, nor do they want to afford a custom setup.
I think it would be a bit easier than one would initially imagine: a lot of welding shops are dieing for work, charge by the hour and can make some very nice peices. Esp considering the guys that have been around for a while consider it an art, similar to your in-house welder
.Time is the real determining factor, plus when you build your own kit, you can use any turbos... Evo 8 turbos with upgraded turbines? Why not? Master power twins? Why not? Twin HX35's? Why not? Yes, most of those turbos wont spool anywhere near like a comparable output Precision or Garrett, but if you are paying nearly half the cost for the turbo's alone, it becomes a lot less of a big deal.
The JIC's are 1300, so yeah they are about the same as your headers. Although, the JIC's are probably the biggest and most difficult step to FI: the turbo manifold. Your headers bolt up to cats, so imo you really didnt get much accomplished, unless you plan on getting a header back turbo kit. Quite a gargantuan difference.
I will say though, of all the turbo kits out there, your is in my top 3 list, as well as the boosted performance kit. For me, its more about what has the future expandability/boost up potential. Would you guys consider doing a discount bundle on the headers if someone bought a turbo kit alongside it?
Last edited by Resmarted; Feb 15, 2011 at 03:15 PM. Reason: "your's is" raw redundancy
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I've seen some very fast cars (mk3 supras, and sti's, even an evo) with ghetto *** silicon+hairspray fmic piping
I think it would be a bit easier than one would initially imagine: a lot of welding shops are dieing for work, charge by the hour and can make some very nice peices. Esp considering the guys that have been around for a while consider it an art, similar to your in-house welder.
Time is the real determining factor, plus when you build your own kit, you can use any turbos... Evo 8 turbos with upgraded turbines? Why not? Master power twins? Why not? Twin HX35's? Why not? Yes, most of those turbos wont spool anywhere near like a comparable output Precision or Garrett, but if you are paying nearly half the cost for the turbo's alone, it becomes a lot less of a big deal.
The JIC's are 1300, so yeah they are about the same as your headers. Although, the JIC's are probably the biggest and most difficult step to FI: the turbo manifold. Your headers bolt up to cats, so imo you really didnt get much accomplished, unless you plan on getting a header back turbo kit. Quite a gargantuan difference.
I will say though, of all the turbo kits out there, your is in my top 3 list, as well as the boosted performance kit. For me, its more about what has the future expandability/boost up potential. Would you guys consider doing a discount bundle on the headers if someone bought a turbo kit alongside it?
I think it would be a bit easier than one would initially imagine: a lot of welding shops are dieing for work, charge by the hour and can make some very nice peices. Esp considering the guys that have been around for a while consider it an art, similar to your in-house welder
.Time is the real determining factor, plus when you build your own kit, you can use any turbos... Evo 8 turbos with upgraded turbines? Why not? Master power twins? Why not? Twin HX35's? Why not? Yes, most of those turbos wont spool anywhere near like a comparable output Precision or Garrett, but if you are paying nearly half the cost for the turbo's alone, it becomes a lot less of a big deal.
The JIC's are 1300, so yeah they are about the same as your headers. Although, the JIC's are probably the biggest and most difficult step to FI: the turbo manifold. Your headers bolt up to cats, so imo you really didnt get much accomplished, unless you plan on getting a header back turbo kit. Quite a gargantuan difference.
I will say though, of all the turbo kits out there, your is in my top 3 list, as well as the boosted performance kit. For me, its more about what has the future expandability/boost up potential. Would you guys consider doing a discount bundle on the headers if someone bought a turbo kit alongside it?
Our headers bolt to cats on an NA car, but with our turbo kit they bolt to the merge piping to the turbo. No cats in the way. After the turbo it is a 3" down pipe and if you use our exhaust, a true 3" all the way to the exhaust tip.
as you can see here
is the single exhaust dual exit also three inch all the way back? i sent a email trying to find a sound clip of just the exhaust but got the exhuast video lol. im trying to find something without rasp for when i purchase mine so far most of the 3 inch single exhausts with dual exits have craptons of it =/ already planning on grabbin the headers after i get sasha paid off for my kit lol, wife needs to start working already >.<
Last edited by jerryd87; Mar 3, 2011 at 09:23 AM.
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is the single exhaust dual exit also three inch all the way back? i sent a email trying to find a sound clip of just the exhaust but got the exhuast video lol. im trying to find something without rasp for when i purchase mine so far most of the 3 inch single exhausts with dual exits have craptons of it =/ already planning on grabbin the headers after i get sasha paid off for my kit lol, wife needs to start working already >.<
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is the single exhaust dual exit also three inch all the way back? i sent a email trying to find a sound clip of just the exhaust but got the exhuast video lol. im trying to find something without rasp for when i purchase mine so far most of the 3 inch single exhausts with dual exits have craptons of it =/ already planning on grabbin the headers after i get sasha paid off for my kit lol, wife needs to start working already >.<
Also does dampen the exhaust tones
*shrug* i might just try out straight pipes, im just skipping the recon permit so i gotta be careful. cars only gona be here two years before i leave so honolulu pd can eat a bag of *insert choice word here* lol
Back to the topic title… I found out a local Z with a built bottom end (stock heads & camshafts) made 450 whp on 11 psi with the PL 35R kit. The car had stock headers and stock exhaust at the time; this was also with AZ 91 octane pump gas.
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So, I have gathered some more data on all this header stuff. Two cars, identical kits and boost levels (10psi). Both cars were tuned well, and on the same type of dyno (DD). Both cars were stock DE's with one having aftermarket DC headers, and the other having OEM headers:
OEM header:
Aftermaket DC headers:
Now, I am not even looking at the max HP here, but the last 1000rpm where the engine is flowing the most exhaust gas. With the OEM headers you can see that after 5900rpm the HP curve starts to dive a bit, and this can only be do to restriction to flow. Now, looking at the DC headers dyno, the HP curve holds all the way to 7000rpm. To me this is a great example that suggests the OEM headers become a restriction at some point, even on a stock block.
NOTE: The second (404whp dyno) had an small exhaust leak, this is why the tq in the early rpm's was low, and timing was very conservative. Again, this is not a big deal, as I am looking at the charts after 5000rpm.
OEM header:
Aftermaket DC headers:
Now, I am not even looking at the max HP here, but the last 1000rpm where the engine is flowing the most exhaust gas. With the OEM headers you can see that after 5900rpm the HP curve starts to dive a bit, and this can only be do to restriction to flow. Now, looking at the DC headers dyno, the HP curve holds all the way to 7000rpm. To me this is a great example that suggests the OEM headers become a restriction at some point, even on a stock block.
NOTE: The second (404whp dyno) had an small exhaust leak, this is why the tq in the early rpm's was low, and timing was very conservative. Again, this is not a big deal, as I am looking at the charts after 5000rpm.
Last edited by Boosted Performance; Mar 14, 2011 at 04:58 PM.
Edit: why does the 2nd graph say Vor? Vortech?
Last edited by rh_334; Mar 15, 2011 at 05:22 AM.
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Edit: why does the 2nd graph say Vor? Vortech? [/QUOTE]
Yeah Hal you have the heart breaker. we took our test Mule on the road for a week to show it to a few of our dealers. The results were as follows:
National Speed 395 rwhp (4 wheel Dyno jet)
Forged Performance 384 RWHP (4 wheel Dyno dynamics)
Z1 409 (2 wheel dyno jet)
Injected/Dynosty 349 (2 wheel dyno dynamics)
Sasha, not trying to hijack, but all dynos are not created equal and we saw some pretty good deviations in same brand dynos.
We used our car as the control and used pump gas a readily available, all of it 93 octane and our base Map tune out of the box. There was a 60 whp difference from all four dynos, and 24 whp difference between dynojets and 35 whp difference between the dyno dynamics.
National Speed 395 rwhp (4 wheel Dyno jet)
Forged Performance 384 RWHP (4 wheel Dyno dynamics)
Z1 409 (2 wheel dyno jet)
Injected/Dynosty 349 (2 wheel dyno dynamics)
Sasha, not trying to hijack, but all dynos are not created equal and we saw some pretty good deviations in same brand dynos.
We used our car as the control and used pump gas a readily available, all of it 93 octane and our base Map tune out of the box. There was a 60 whp difference from all four dynos, and 24 whp difference between dynojets and 35 whp difference between the dyno dynamics.
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according to this (which is the only real comparison between hal's dd and another i can find) the dynosty dd reads ~10% lower than forged performance's
link
link
Let's not get in to the whole hp/dymo debate again.